Arriva Rail North DOO

[HowardGWR]

I’ll go one better than that...

Paid up Conservative Party and RMT member, albeit opted out of the political fund for obvious reasons, and I’ve been out on strike (in the rail industry) twice in my 14 years so far, I’d vote yes to strike and walk out the door again if I thought it was the inky course of action.

See my bold. Meaning of please? Google did not help me.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

See my bold. Meaning of please? Google did not help me.

Look at your keyboard: obvious typo for only!

 

[Bromley boy]

I’ll go one better than that...

Paid up Conservative Party and RMT member, albeit opted out of the political fund for obvious reasons, and I’ve been out on strike (in the rail industry) twice in my 14 years so far, I’d vote yes to strike and walk out the door again if I thought it was the inky course of action.

Bravo chap.

You’re a “brother” in more ways the one.

Although I don’t really buy into the “brother” nonsense. I have two actual brothers, neither of them are work colleagues.

How did that come about in the first place? We aren’t monks or priests, are we?! (I’m not. I have the sexual morals of a 4-balled alleycat ).

 

[scrapy]

No guard is actually being made redundant and are guaranteed current terms and conditions until end of franchise. So the cost of salaries will have already been priced into the bid.

Fares generally go up every year regardless, and 50% of the fares basket is regulated with no market forces acting on them

I believe Northern have guaranteed guards wages and pay reviews until the end of the franchise. Terms and conditions haven't been guaranteed.

 

[Moonshot]

I believe Northern have guaranteed guards wages and pay reviews until the end of the franchise. Terms and conditions haven't been guaranteed.

Let me put you absolutely straight on this as it's me who is better informed and clued in than you. There will be no change to what the guards job is today for all those who are currently employed as guards. This includes salaries, holiday pay, pension and rest day working pattern. A guard today will still be responsible for opening and closing doors on the train he or she is working. And that is because most of the current routes will not have DOO applied to them because it is neither practical or cost effective. The new Northern Connect routes will be the ones where drivers control doors, and those new routes are additional to what Northern already are running.

 

[Tomnick]

Let me put you absolutely straight on this as it's me who is better informed and clued in than you. There will be no change to what the guards job is today for all those who are currently employed as guards. This includes salaries, holiday pay, pension and rest day working pattern. A guard today will still be responsible for opening and closing doors on the train he or she is working. And that is because most of the current routes will not have DOO applied to them because it is neither practical or cost effective. The new Northern Connect routes will be the ones where drivers control doors, and those new routes are additional to what Northern already are running.

Forgive me for daring to challenge the oracle, but "current routes" include semi-fast services over routes such as Sheffield - Hull, Leeds - Nottingham and Blackpool - Leeds. I'm not aware of any plan to introduce new services over these routes under the new "Northern Connect" banner. Indeed, most look like existing semi-fast services rebranded. They won't be additional to what Northern already are running. It follows that not all guards will continue to be responsible for opening and closing doors* if some of their existing work is covered by new trains running DOO.

* - also, I'd have thought that someone so well informed and clued would understand that the Guard's role involves rather more than just opening and closing doors...

 

[Eccles1983]

Every route except one in Middlesbrough is earmarked for doo.

 

[Darandio]

Let me put you absolutely straight on this as it's me who is better informed and clued in than you.

This is getting tiresome now. It's as though you are now trying to convince yourself you are on the payroll.

 

[HowardGWR]

Look at your keyboard: obvious typo for only!

Thanks very much. It seems people are so fired up about this topic that they fail to read their own posts for howlers. I find that very telling.

 

[northwichcat]

Forgive me for daring to challenge the oracle, but "current routes" include semi-fast services over routes such as Sheffield - Hull, Leeds - Nottingham and Blackpool - Leeds. I'm not aware of any plan to introduce new services over these routes under the new "Northern Connect" banner. Indeed, most look like existing semi-fast services rebranded. They won't be additional to what Northern already are running. It follows that not all guards will continue to be responsible for opening and closing doors* if some of their existing work is covered by new trains running DOO.

* - also, I'd have thought that someone so well informed and clued would understand that the Guard's role involves rather more than just opening and closing doors...

But there are extra services being introduced which won't be Connect services. Surely a Leeds based guard isn't going to complain that they are made to work additional services on the Harrogate line opposed to the service across to Lancashire.

 

[Tomnick]

But there are extra services being introduced which won't be Connect services. Surely a Leeds based guard isn't going to complain that they are made to work additional services on the Harrogate line opposed to the service across to Lancashire.

Yes, you're probably right. I was responding to Moonshot's highly-informed claim that Northern's current empire would carry on as before with a whole new "Connect" network overlaid onto it, when the reality's inevitably going to be somewhat different, more complex and presumably determined by the deployment of the new trains rather than the "Connect" branding alone.

 

[Moonshot]

This is getting tiresome now. It's as though you are now trying to convince yourself you are on the payroll.

But I am on the payroll....as a guard. Last year I earned around £32k. It really is the easiest job in the world. Opening doors and selling and checking tickets on a 4 day week plus the odd Sunday and rest day if I want. We get paid for 35 hours a week but we certainly don't spend 35 hours a week actually working trains. So when I tell you that's what I do for a living, it really is what I do for a living. Tough if you don't like the fact I'm doing a cushy job on the railway and your not.

 

[Moonshot]

Yes, you're probably right. I was responding to Moonshot's highly-informed claim that Northern's current empire would carry on as before with a whole new "Connect" network overlaid onto it, when the reality's inevitably going to be somewhat different, more complex and presumably determined by the deployment of the new trains rather than the "Connect" branding alone.

Pray do tell us what you think will be different. And then I will put you right where you are wrong

 

[Tomnick]

Pray do tell us what you think will be different. And then I will put you right where you are wrong

The difference is that a decent proportion of Northern's existing operation will run with new trains under "Northern Connect" branding. "Northern Connect" services mostly aren't new services.

 

[Darandio]

Tough if you don't like the fact I'm doing a cushy job on the railway and your not.

I couldn't give a monkeys what you do, you certainly won't find any jealousy from me. In fact, i'd wager my 'railway' job is a great deal cushier given the fact 99% of it doesn't involve me leaving my front door on a morning, I just don't feel the need to tell everyone in every post. Given the TOC you work for, our paths might even cross in the next 18 months.

 

[Tomnick]

But I am on the payroll....as a guard. Last year I earned around £32k. It really is the easiest job in the world. Opening doors and selling and checking tickets on a 4 day week plus the odd Sunday and rest day if I want. We get paid for 35 hours a week but we certainly don't spend 35 hours a week actually working trains. So when I tell you that's what I do for a living, it really is what I do for a living. Tough if you don't like the fact I'm doing a cushy job on the railway and your not.

"Cushy", maybe, until it goes wrong, and you're using your route knowledge to summon the emergency services to the right place (in the middle of nowhere) or trotting off to place emergency protection or looking after your driver (as well as your passengers) following a fatality or some other traumatic event. Did you forget that your role involves that not-so-cushy stuff too?

 

[Moonshot]

"Cushy", maybe, until it goes wrong, and you're using your route knowledge to summon the emergency services to the right place (in the middle of nowhere) or trotting off to place emergency protection or looking after your driver (as well as your passengers) following a fatality or some other traumatic event. Did you forget that your role involves that not-so-cushy stuff too?

And pray do tell us just how often guards trot off to the middle of nowhere to put down detonator protection. The answer is never, and that particular part of the guards training will disappear once absolute block signalling disappears. So let me put you straight, don't take any notice of anyone posting on here that tells you different.

 

[Moonshot]

I couldn't give a monkeys what you do, you certainly won't find any jealousy from me. In fact, i'd wager my 'railway' job is a great deal cushier given the fact 99% of it doesn't involve me leaving my front door on a morning, I just don't feel the need to tell everyone in every post. Given the TOC you work for, our paths might even cross in the next 18 months.

I doubt it

 

[Darandio]

I doubt it

We'll see. Although it would be more likely if you planned on moving over to driving.

 

[Tomnick]

And pray do tell us just how often guards trot off to the middle of nowhere to put down detonator protection. The answer is never, and that particular part of the guards training will disappear once absolute block signalling disappears. So let me put you straight, don't take any notice of anyone posting on here that tells you different.

As often as they need to, which thankfully isn't very often but certainly more frequently than "never". The requirement for emergency protection isn't limited to absolute block signalling either (I'm sure you knew that anyway); indeed, it becomes more important during Temporary Block Working on a TCB line when you have to protect in the rear by default (who's going to do that?).

On what basis do you claim with absolute certainty that guards won't be trained to carry out emergency protection once absolute block signalling disappears? I know it's decades away anyway, but still...

 

[Moonshot]

We'll see. Although it would be more likely if you planned on moving over to driving.

Medical issue would prevent that I'm afraid. Besides , it's much easier in the back cab than the front

 

[Moonshot]

As often as they need to, which thankfully isn't very often but certainly more frequently than "never". The requirement for emergency protection isn't limited to absolute block signalling either (I'm sure you knew that anyway); indeed, it becomes more important during Temporary Block Working on a TCB line when you have to protect in the rear by default (who's going to do that?).

On what basis do you claim with absolute certainty that guards won't be trained to carry out emergency protection once absolute block signalling disappears? I know it's decades away anyway, but still...

Drivers are responsible for rear protection, and clearly they are the only ones capable of that on a service that is already DOO in case you have forgotten

 

[Tomnick]

Drivers are responsible for rear protection, and clearly they are the only ones capable of that on a service that is already DOO in case you have forgotten

Yes, and Guards are responsible for carrying out emergency protection to assist the Driver if necessary or if the Driver is incapacitated. Clearly the Driver can’t proceed in two opposite directions simultaneously (if you’re off the road with the adjacent line fouled in a TBW section), so the Guard’s going to have to do one direction. Yes, the Driver’s on his own on a DOO train, so will be unable to protect the rear straight away - a definite, if small, increase in risk then. Either way, why do you state with absolute certainty that Guards won’t be trained to carry out emergency protection once AB finally disappears?

 

[Tom Quinne]

Bravo chap.

You’re a “brother” in more ways the one.

Although I don’t really buy into the “brother” nonsense. I have two actual brothers, neither of them are work colleagues.

How did that come about in the first place? We aren’t monks or priests, are we?! (I’m not. I have the sexual morals of a 4-balled alleycat ).

It’s like someone said it’s a modern? political viewpoint, I feel (rightly or wrongly) the conservatives represent me and my views better than the traditional Labour Party.

But, I’m a strong believer in the working orders right to protect their jobs, especially when their well paid skilled ones.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Thanks very much. It seems people are so fired up about this topic that they fail to read their own posts for howlers. I find that very telling.

I’m not fired up, I’ve just a fat finger and tired.

 

[PR1Berske]

Thanks very much. It seems people are so fired up about this topic that they fail to read their own posts for howlers. I find that very telling.

In the heat of debate autocorrect can make posts look less well typed than they originally were. Consider it the price to pay for wanting to reply in time.

 

[Moonshot]

Yes, and Guards are responsible for carrying out emergency protection to assist the Driver if necessary or if the Driver is incapacitated. Clearly the Driver can’t proceed in two opposite directions simultaneously (if you’re off the road with the adjacent line fouled in a TBW section), so the Guard’s going to have to do one direction. Yes, the Driver’s on his own on a DOO train, so will be unable to protect the rear straight away - a definite, if small, increase in risk then. Either way, why do you state with absolute certainty that Guards won’t be trained to carry out emergency protection once AB finally disappears?

Because driver only operation already exists . And in case you do not realise, track circuit clips have absolutely no use whatsoever in AB areas.

 

[Eccles1983]

Track circuit clips do have a use in ab areas. They inform the signaller of your presence in the case of a derailment. They also are a requirement if running in areas with IB's.

You've made an assumption that all ab areas don't contain track circuits. Where as if you had actually done any training you would know a white diamond on a signal post indicates that track circuits are used.

Once again your font of knowledge runs dry.

 

[Tomnick]

Because driver only operation already exists . And in case you do not realise, track circuit clips have absolutely no use whatsoever in AB areas.

You know very little about me, my background or my experience, so don’t state that you or anyone else is “infinitely more clued up” than me.

Track circuit clips potentially have some benefit on AB lines, just as they potentially have little or no benefit on TCB lines. I never mentioned them though.

I’m always interested to learn how other systems do it. One day there might no longer any justification for maintaining traincrews’ competency in placing emergency protection. A near-infallible radio system might form part of that justification, for example. Obsolescence of absolute block signalling alone probably won’t, because it’s as necessary on TCB as it is on AB.

 

[323235]

An excellent post and it proves a very worrying point. The RMT are refusing a second ballot as they might lose. Now who would they lose too. Their own members. They are surely there to benefit their members interests and if the members want to end the strikes then why not. Or do they have that much disdane for democracy.

Forgive me if I don't know enough from the inside but as I see it the number of train services on strike days has significantly reduced - this doesn't seem to indicate there are more staff booking on. If anything it seems to show that more pretend guards / managers were unavailable but no true guards returned to work in real numbers to significantly fill the void.