East Midlands Franchise 2019-

[edwin_m]

But if Liverpool - Nottingham were remapped to Northern there'd be other options at several points along the way.

As there would for TPE. But Liverpool-Nottingham and return is a pretty good day's work for a crew so my guess would be they would mainly resource it from Liverpool in the same way as EMT mainly resources it from Nottingham.

 

[DanTrain]

In that case could you run it via Marple and avoid Stockport congestion (but also lose revenue) or is that line very busy too?

That would make sense, there always seems to be space down there when TP or EMT need to divert services (as in the recent incident on the Stockport viaduct). A Somewhere - Sheffield - Dore - Chinley - New Mills - Piccadilly would work well as a semi-fast, with the added benefit of giving New Mills a proper service (not the endless varieties of stoppers it currently gets).

 

[bunnahabhain]

It would be a relatively cheap fix for the EMT successor, if they keep this route, to roster conductors so they can step back too and if the train got to Liverpool late it could start back almost immediately. I realise this would involve about ten extra posts but still cheaper than infrastructure or diagramming an extra train (which would need the extra guards and extra drivers too). If it changes to TPE operation then crews would probably swap at Liverpool but the same issue would arise at Nottingham.

It wouldn't require any extra staff, it just requires the work in diagrams to be shifting around to accommodate a PNB at Liverpool and not Sheffield or Nottingham, there are things which work against it being a regular feature that I won't go into on here.

 

[_toommm_]

In that case could you run it via Marple and avoid Stockport congestion (but also lose revenue) or is that line very busy too?

The problem isn't Marple, it's crossing Ardwick Jn which would lose you time, plus, being at the mercy of the ever-late TPE services from Leeds/York etc.

 

[Killingworth]

That would make sense, there always seems to be space down there when TP or EMT need to divert services (as in the recent incident on the Stockport viaduct). A Somewhere - Sheffield - Dore - Chinley - New Mills - Piccadilly would work well as a semi-fast, with the added benefit of giving New Mills a proper service (not the endless varieties of stoppers it currently gets).

Who knows what will come to pass, but a Piccadilly - Sheffield core service of 4 tph is supposed to happen when/if the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme is finally completed. The existing two fast (although fast is a generous description) services seem destined to remain, with the Liverpool - Norwich, split at Nottingham. The stopping service via New Mills is also to remain, with the hourly service supposed to serve all stations, rather than skipping quite a few as at present.

The residents around Chinley are most unhappy about losing their services to Stockport by TPE. The extra train might be fairly fast, but limited stop, X, Piccadilly, Stockport, Chinley, Hope, Dore & Totley, Sheffield, Y. That would give a central Hope Valley stop with quicker services for both commuters and leisure travellers to both Manchester and Sheffield - and Stockport.

New Mills Central has a half hourly service into Manchester on the Hope Valley. New Mills Newtown also gets 2 trains an hour on the Buxton line so residents in that area are well catered for by numbers of trains, albeit taking 30-40 minutes into Piccadilly on both lines.

However, details of new services and paths specifically down the Hope Valley are more a subject for the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme thread; https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hope-valley-capacity-scheme.168285/

 

[johnnychips]

The problem isn't Marple, it's crossing Ardwick Jn which would lose you time, plus, being at the mercy of the ever-late TPE services from Leeds/York etc.

I was only floating this as an idea following a previous post, but if a path can be found among the Rose Hill, Marple and New Mills stoppers at Romily and there is space in Piccadilly platforms 1-4, then the conflict at Ardwick is with 2 tph Hadfield and 2TPE, and one from the Hyde route. Not suggesting this is easy, but perhaps easier than trying to shoehorn in another train via Stockport.

To keep it on topic, I don’t suppose this would be a suitable route for EM franchise unless it ran via the Dore chord to Nottingham or Derby, which would defeat the object of three fast or semi-fast trains per hour Manchester-Sheffield.

 

[Killingworth]

To keep it on topic, I don’t suppose this would be a suitable route for EM franchise unless it ran via the Dore chord to Nottingham or Derby, which would defeat the object of three fast or semi-fast trains per hour Manchester-Sheffield.

That was/is what the East Midlands local authorities want and is strongly opposed by South Yorkshire authorities. If there had been 4 fast paths it would still have been opposed in Sheffield. It's bad enough that the 45 mile jouney is timetabled to take at best 49 minutes, but the average delay is currently over 5 minutes so most trains are actually taking nearer an hour.

 

[Kneedown]

That was/is what the East Midlands local authorities want and is strongly opposed by South Yorkshire authorities. If there had been 4 fast paths it would still have been opposed in Sheffield. It's bad enough that the 45 mile jouney is timetabled to take at best 49 minutes, but the average delay is currently over 5 minutes so most trains are actually taking nearer an hour.

The main reason for our (EMT) delays over the Hope Valley is when we catch up with the stopping service, or a freight. All too regular being held at Edale for the preceding service to clear Chinley.

 

[atraindriver]

TPE provide a unit to cover an early morning trip between Cleethorpes and Barton using SDO for the branch line short platforms.

TPE also use a 185 for the last Barton at night, as the dogbox is ferried to Lincoln on the back of the EMT working (whence it forms the last Lincoln-Sheffield).

 

[Killingworth]

The main reason for our (EMT) delays over the Hope Valley is when we catch up with the stopping service, or a freight. All too regular being held at Edale for the preceding service to clear Chinley.

To be fair to Northern's stoppers, they're quite often late going west after being held in the Heeley loop to allow a late running TPE to overtake. That in turn could well have been on time until approaching Meadowhall when delayed by congestion at the north end of Sheffield.

The stopper can be late going west after a delay coming east, and vice versa! Knock on delays reverberate around the nation.

Coming east congestion from the heavy stone and cement trains should be eased if/when the loops at Bamford and Dore are built. They can be delayed awaiting a clear path to go south round the Dore curve.

Redoubling through Dore & Totley will help too, as will any signalling improvements.

 

[Kneedown]

To be fair to Northern's stoppers, they're quite often late going west after being held in the Heeley loop to allow a late running TPE to overtake. That in turn could well have been on time until approaching Meadowhall when delayed by congestion at the north end of Sheffield.

The stopper can be late going west after a delay coming east, and vice versa! Knock on delays reverberate around the nation.

Coming east congestion from the heavy stone and cement trains should be eased if/when the loops at Bamford and Dore are built. They can be delayed awaiting a clear path to go south round the Dore curve.

Redoubling through Dore & Totley will help too, as will any signalling improvements.

Indeed, It's a vicious circle. Something delays a train, which delays the Northern, which delays the EMT.
Slade Lane is also a major conflict point. It has to be one of the most poorly designed junctions. Everything gets in everything elses way.

 

[Tomnick]

Indeed, It's a vicious circle. Something delays a train, which delays the Northern, which delays the EMT.
Slade Lane is also a major conflict point. It has to be one of the most poorly designed junctions. Everything gets in everything elses way.

I don't think there's much wrong with the junction layout itself. It's just that all the conflicts happen in one place. It'd be a lot better if at least some of the conflicting moves could be untangled somewhere else instead, but I'm not sure how you'd do that without some serious remodelling over a wider area. It'd help if the signalling wasn't so restrictive approaching on the Down (conditional double reds?).

 

[edwin_m]

I don't think there's much wrong with the junction layout itself. It's just that all the conflicts happen in one place. It'd be a lot better if at least some of the conflicting moves could be untangled somewhere else instead, but I'm not sure how you'd do that without some serious remodelling over a wider area. It'd help if the signalling wasn't so restrictive approaching on the Down (conditional double reds?).

That was the intention of extending the up-down-up-down southwards from Slade Lane to Edgeley. For example the Norwich-Liverpool currently has to cross both Up lines at Edgeley but could have crossed one of those tracks at various places between Edgeley and the approaches to Piccadilly. There would still have been flat junction conflicts with the Styal line at Slade Lane though. Disadvantage being the less passenger-friendly layout at Stockport (Manchester trains leaving from both islands) and probably an asymmetrical service for Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.

 

[jayah]

Arriva are making a better fist of Northern, including ordering new trains and refurbishing everything else.
However it's all down to the commitments made in the bid, so a lot depends on the franchise ITT.
Arriva XC has never had the luxury of acquiring new trains as the DfT has not sanctioned any increase in capacity (since the 4 HSTs came back).
Like EM it is right on the end of its franchise period.
Hopefully both franchises will get a good deal from the DfT this time - but they are short of cash with VTEC not going to deliver its expected premiums.

Of course the operator isn't really doing anything that isn't committed. To get the results at the sharp end you have to convince the DfT to put up the cash in the first place.

The actual franchise is just implementation of the DfT spec plus what ever additional mouthwatering side dishes the bidder got them to cough up for.

Judging by the bonfire of mid-life rolling stock, despite talk of austerity, they still have cash to burn.

 

[edwin_m]

However if someone comes along with a better deal for an incoming franchise to replace non-life-expired stock then it's the owning ROSCO, not the DfT, who take the pain. This may change (and may already be changing) once it dawns on the ROSCOs that there is a significant risk of their trains not seeing out the expected service life. At that point they'll demand a much longer lease contract covering multiple franchise lengths, or put the fees up to recover their costs in a single franchise period.

 

[Tomnick]

That was the intention of extending the up-down-up-down southwards from Slade Lane to Edgeley. For example the Norwich-Liverpool currently has to cross both Up lines at Edgeley but could have crossed one of those tracks at various places between Edgeley and the approaches to Piccadilly. There would still have been flat junction conflicts with the Styal line at Slade Lane though. Disadvantage being the less passenger-friendly layout at Stockport (Manchester trains leaving from both islands) and probably an asymmetrical service for Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.

That'd certainly help a lot, but with the disadvantages that you highlight. I'm not sure how many movements there are between the Stockport direction and the slow lines in a typical hour nowadays, but they're obviously the ones that really stuff the job up and I'm not sure how much potential there is to concentrate them in the main shed instead given (a) the desire for through trains further west and (b) the limited opportunities for terminating trains from the west. Less restrictive signalling on the approach would at least get things through the junction more quickly though - at present, from the Down Fast to the Down Slow, trains are checked right down at the second signal in rear if there's no route set through the junction, then trundle along from there towards the protecting signal (which is approach controlled from red) even if the junction's cleared in the meantime.

 

[fgwrich]

I take it it's now known that the confirmed 3 bidders are Stagecoach, Abellio & Arriva. Mentioned on the EMT ex GC HST refurbishment report on last nights East Midlands Today.

 

[yorksrob]

I take it it's now known that the confirmed 3 bidders are Stagecoach, Abellio & Arriva. Mentioned on the EMT HST refurbishment report on last nights East Midlands Today.

Whats that about an HST refurbishment ?

 

[pt_mad]

I take it it's now known that the confirmed 3 bidders are Stagecoach, Abellio & Arriva. Mentioned on the EMT HST refurbishment report on last nights East Midlands Today.

Surprised Abellio are bidding. Might have thought this was a bit too intercity for them.

 

[fgwrich]

Whats that about an HST refurbishment ?

Apologies, it's only the ex GC sets mentioned on the news piece. Unless EMT decide to follow suit of course.

 

[yorksrob]

Apologies, it's only the ex GC sets mentioned on the news piece. Unless EMT decide to follow suit of course.

Oh, that's interesting. It's surprising that it should make TV news.

 

[londonmidland]

Whats that about an HST refurbishment ?

Here's some more info about it - https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.u.../?hootPostID=e63d1af862a9dd9ee67e5cb50b0cda76

 

[yorksrob]

Here's some more info about it - https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.u.../?hootPostID=e63d1af862a9dd9ee67e5cb50b0cda76

Cheers, they're very recognisable.

 

[whhistle]

I take it it's now known that the confirmed 3 bidders are Stagecoach, Abellio & Arriva.

Yeah, been known for ages.

Surprised Abellio are bidding. Might have thought this was a bit too intercity for them.

The Midland Mainline route is akin to the London -Norwich route these days.
It's certainly not in the lague of the East/West or Great West routes.

 

[NoOnesFool]

The Midland Mainline route is akin to the London -Norwich route these days.
It's certainly not in the lague of the East/West or Great West routes.

I disagree unfortunately. EMT London services are running similar distances to WC and GW core services, i.e. London to Sheffield is a similar distance as London to Bristol or London to Wolverhampton. There is a full First Class service offered, unlike on Greater Anglia. Standard Class passengers receive an at seat service during the week and there are First Class Lounges at key terminals on the route, something you would not get on a short-medium distance route. EMT also worked with Network Rail to bring the line speed between London and Bedford up to 125 mph whereas London to Norwich is only 110 mph I believe.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Could their be more London Services as part of the next EM Franchise. Like a regular London-Leeds service by extending one hourly Sheffield service to Leeds?

 

[hwl]

Could their be more London Services as part of the next EM Franchise. Like a regular London-Leeds service by extending one hourly Sheffield service to Leeds?

There will be more London Services, Corby goes from 1tph to 2tph with electrification. No change on the rest.
The train capacity will go up when the stock is replaced with bi-modes.

 

[yorksrob]

Does Corby need two trains an hour ?

 

[Robertj21a]

Does Corby need two trains an hour ?

No, it barely needs the one its got.

I guess it's just a handy spot to turn an extra working back to London.

 

[yorksrob]

No, it barely needs the one its got.

I guess it's just a handy spot to turn an extra working back to London.

I'd be tempted to send one to Leicester instead.