Arriva Rail North DOO

[scrapy]

Isn't that a trick question? If he gives an exact figure then he's effectively confirmed the DCO routes are fixed and they can't be changed with negotiations with the unions, while if he doesn't give a figure then it's presumed it's higher than it needs to be.

Sorry I should have been clearer I asked for an approximation of how many they intended to run. As a follow up I asked if the number was expected to be greater than 60% at this time. He could have said it's just over 50% and definitely not 60% I was not expecting a definitive figure.

 

[scrapy]

So like everybody else on this thread you dont actually know anything. As it stands today, no service on the Northern Network runs without a guard controlling doors. The smart opinion on here would suggest that a starting point would be the new Northern Connect services which call at stations with staff on the platforms. So clearly there will be no issue with getting wheelchair passengers on and off. However there still has to be a negotiation with ASLEF about drivers operating doors on the new trains.

I don't know what the figures in the franchise agreement are for the percentage of trains that will be DOO, but neither do you. I am simply pointing out that your assumption that it will be 50% of mileage also could be wide of the mark. We do know it has to be at least 50% so the actual figure of guard operated train mileage will be either exactly 50% or less than 50%. If Northern can find a way to fit DOO equipment in other older rolling stock it could be 80 or 90%. I'm not saying it is that, I'm just saying it's possible. If they had no intention of this why would they have trailed monitors in 150s?

 

[Confused52]

I don't know what the figures in the franchise agreement are for the percentage of trains that will be DOO, but neither do you. I am simply pointing out that your assumption that it will be 50% of mileage also could be wide of the mark. We do know it has to be at least 50% so the actual figure of guard operated train mileage will be either exactly 50% or less than 50%. If Northern can find a way to fit DOO equipment in other older rolling stock it could be 80 or 90%. I'm not saying it is that, I'm just saying it's possible. If they had no intention of this why would they have trailed monitors in 150s?

What we KNOW is of course limited. The routes do appear to be specified in the franchise agreement (see post #4594) but the actual route identities were redacted to protect us mere mortals. In addition we can see from the same post that the percentage is specified in terms of the aggregate passenger miles, as opposed to route journeys or trains. We just can't see the percentage. However if it had been zero percent then it is pretty clear there would not have been a line of text at all! As it is not zero then the current union position cannot be maintained with either RMT or ASLEF.

Given the other disputes going on in parallel where the position of the RMT does not have to change to permit DCO/DOO I would expect them to do nothing by way of agreement which might compromise the desired outcome of those disputes. Therefore the rational position is to keep the Northern dispute just ticking over. The current additional pressure though Saturday strikes is not a rational response to the Northern issue but it seems to be a jolly good shot across the bows of Merseytravel who would have to compensate Merseyrail for the losses and the replacement buses week after week if they don't accept the RMT offer.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

It's all being done on a shoestring anyway if they were that committed to modernisation they would be upgrading the network and replacing all of the trains perhaps then we would all be less sceptical. Who is waiting for this new service to launch and it be marred with failure, lack of drivers, rolling stock issues, unstaffed stations and trains etc etc. Northern seem to be trying to gradually unstaff the network and run the service on a shoestring. The fact they cannot even commit to a member of staff on every train is not exactly reassuring, they can pump out the mantra about staffing every station, but if the member of staff is not operationally required for example dispatching trains, they will soon replace them with zero hours staff or run stations without covering them.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't know what the figures in the franchise agreement are for the percentage of trains that will be DOO, but neither do you. I am simply pointing out that your assumption that it will be 50% of mileage also could be wide of the mark. We do know it has to be at least 50% so the actual figure of guard operated train mileage will be either exactly 50% or less than 50%. If Northern can find a way to fit DOO equipment in other older rolling stock it could be 80 or 90%. I'm not saying it is that, I'm just saying it's possible. If they had no intention of this why would they have trailed monitors in 150s?

There have been absolutely no trials of monitors whatsoever, I will absolutely guarantee you that. There are negotiations going on however with ASLEF about drivers having small laptop/I pads on docking stations in cabs. These are currently stored in a warehouse somewhere unitl an agreement can be reached. Take it from me that is 100% correct as I am better informed than anyone else on here. I will also tell you that one of the 150 units had the redundant door control in the actual can brought back into use on a temp basis whilst in maintenance last year. It did not go into setvice.

 

[footprints]

The current additional pressure though Saturday strikes is not a rational response to the Northern issue but it seems to be a jolly good shot across the bows of Merseytravel who would have to compensate Merseyrail for the losses and the replacement buses week after week if they don't accept the RMT offer.

What replacement buses? There haven't been any during previous strike action on Merseyrail.

 

[Andyh82]

Striking every Saturday including during the popular Christmas shopping and party period risks the area losing its entire leisure travel market and resulting in the franchise becoming a financial problem, not just for Arriva, but for the next franchise to come when the cost vs revenue numbers cease to add up.

Unlike in London, it’s perfectly easy to drive into and park in Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield on a Saturday even in December.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Unlike in London, it’s perfectly easy to drive into and park in Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield on a Saturday even in December.

Or use one of the many P&R systems. Especially in Manchester.

 

[387star]

Mersey dispute latest??

 

[yorksrob]

Out of interest, is it written in the public domain anywhere that the DfT have to compensate Northern for strike action ?

 

[Overspeed110]

There have been absolutely no trials of monitors whatsoever, I will absolutely guarantee you that. There are negotiations going on however with ASLEF about drivers having small laptop/I pads on docking stations in cabs. These are currently stored in a warehouse somewhere unitl an agreement can be reached. Take it from me that is 100% correct as I am better informed than anyone else on here. I will also tell you that one of the 150 units had the redundant door control in the actual can brought back into use on a temp basis whilst in maintenance last year. It did not go into setvice.

You are not as well informed as you think you are......

 

[Moonshot]

You are not as well informed as you think you are......

I'm clearly in a much better position than you and that's because I actually work for them unlike you. So take it as read that you actually haven't got a clue.

 

[Eccles1983]

You are not as well informed as you think you are......

Amen.

The waffle about tablets has been brewing for over 2 years. It's not even close to what is being negotiated. They are sat in Poland. And even if they got shipped out now there is no chance of them being used because the company is refusing to pay for what is in effect a productivity element. Fake news.

What they are talking about is a training package, with relation to restdays being extended or pulled, aligned with a harmonization deal.

I'm afraid moonshot likes to appear that he is all knowing but the reality is far away from his boastings.

 

[Confused52]

Out of interest, is it written in the public domain anywhere that the DfT have to compensate Northern for strike action ?

The quotation below is from Schedule 8.3 of the Northern Franchise Agreement ( Page 423 of the Execution copy , which can be found here: https://assets.publishing.service.g.../file/594494/northern-franchise-agreement.pdf ) which is entitled "Miscellaneous Payment Provisions".

"The Secretary of State, in his discretion, may at any time decide to reimburse or ameliorate net losses of the Franchisee arising from Industrial Action (however caused and of whatever nature) in circumstances where the Franchisee has demonstrated to the satisfaction of the Secretary of State that it has taken all reasonable steps to avoid the Industrial Action and that, Industrial Action having nevertheless occurred, the Franchisee has taken all reasonable steps to mitigate its effects."

Whether or not the Secretary of State is minded to pay for the net losses is not a given but one might expect the franchisee to take steps to ensure that it can reasonably be expected. Equally it is in the union's interests for there to be doubt about whether all reasonable steps have been taken to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt. I hope that answers your question about what is in the public domain.

 

[Confused52]

What replacement buses? There haven't been any during previous strike action on Merseyrail.

Perhaps the Arriva ones on which rail tickets were accepted. I don't imagine the buses were actually not charging in any way for carrying the extra passengers. Arriva buses and trains are not the same company for UK accounts according to Companies House.

 

[yorksrob]

The quotation below is from Schedule 8.3 of the Northern Franchise Agreement ( Page 423 of the Execution copy , which can be found here: https://assets.publishing.service.g.../file/594494/northern-franchise-agreement.pdf ) which is entitled "Miscellaneous Payment Provisions".

"The Secretary of State, in his discretion, may at any time decide to reimburse or ameliorate net losses of the Franchisee arising from Industrial Action (however caused and of whatever nature) in circumstances where the Franchisee has demonstrated to the satisfaction of the Secretary of State that it has taken all reasonable steps to avoid the Industrial Action and that, Industrial Action having nevertheless occurred, the Franchisee has taken all reasonable steps to mitigate its effects."

Whether or not the Secretary of State is minded to pay for the net losses is not a given but one might expect the franchisee to take steps to ensure that it can reasonably be expected. Equally it is in the union's interests for there to be doubt about whether all reasonable steps have been taken to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt. I hope that answers your question about what is in the public domain.

Thank you. That's very informative.

 

[Robertj21a]

Perhaps the Arriva ones on which rail tickets were accepted. I don't imagine the buses were actually not charging in any way for carrying the extra passengers. Arriva buses and trains are not the same company for UK accounts according to Companies House.

I think you will find that no monies change hands between the 'associated' companies. To the general public it's just one company - and that's what matters.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm clearly in a much better position than you and that's because I actually work for them unlike you. So take it as read that you actually haven't got a clue.

But several others who do work for them have all said your attitude isn’t representative!

 

[Moonshot]

But several others who do work for them have all said your attitude isn’t representative!

Let me put you absolutely 100% straight so as there is no ambiguity whatsoever. The small number of tub thumping union members for Northern on here are in no way representative of the work place. A second ballot would kill this strike stone dead in its tracks. Make sure you understand that and it is crystal clear in your mind.

 

[woodmally]

Let me put you absolutely 100% straight so as there is no ambiguity whatsoever. The small number of tub thumping union members for Northern on here are in no way representative of the work place. A second ballot would kill this strike stone dead in its tracks. Make sure you understand that and it is crystal clear in your mind.

And to add to that if you think Moonshot and myself are wrong then call another ballot. If you win then you will have strengthened your position. If your wrong finally these strikes will be over. If you do think we are wrong then tell us why you won't call another ballot. I await your response.

 

[Bromley boy]

Let me put you absolutely 100% straight so as there is no ambiguity whatsoever. The small number of tub thumping union members for Northern on here are in no way representative of the work place. A second ballot would kill this strike stone dead in its tracks. Make sure you understand that and it is crystal clear in your mind.

Lots of big talk and posturing on here. I bet you’re as quiet as a mouse in the messroom.

As I’ve said before if you disagree with the strike action (as you’re perfectly entitled to) you should resign from the union and go to work on strike days. Otherwise that makes you a hypocrite.

You clearly have an agenda, as others have noted.

And to add to that if you think Moonshot and myself are wrong then call another ballot. If you win then you will have strengthened your position. If your wrong finally these strikes will be over. If you do think we are wrong then tell us why you won't call another ballot. I await your response.

Is that addressed to me? I’m neither an RMT member nor a guard and I don’t work for Northern.

 

[matacaster]

It is clear that in future many less well used trains will be driver only. Obviously that causes some anxiety in the ranks of the guards / conductors. Years ago, there was a category of 'passed fireman' who although not a fully qualified driver, did have considerable railway experience and could drive a train in certain circumstances - would a modern reincarnation be helpful here? Perhaps, if it is not already the case, a commitment to providing driver training for an agreed number of conductor / guards each year might help to solve the problem? Of course, that would not answer the unions loss of members though, which may be a bigger concern to them!

 

[northwichcat]

It is clear that in future many less well used trains will be driver only. Obviously that causes some anxiety in the ranks of the guards / conductors. Years ago, there was a category of 'passed fireman' who although not a fully qualified driver, did have considerable railway experience and could drive a train in certain circumstances - would a modern reincarnation be helpful here? Perhaps, if it is not already the case, a commitment to providing driver training for an agreed number of conductor / guards each year might help to solve the problem? Of course, that would not answer the unions loss of members though, which may be a bigger concern to them!

The RMT apparently refuse to represent OBS' who have been employed as OBS' and see guards who have become OBS' as 'guards in dispute' or similar. If they don't recognise an OBS role and drivers continue to see ASLEF as the most sensible union to join, the R letter in the RMT's name may become as meaningless as the F letter in the ASLEF name.

 

[woodmally]

Lots of big talk and posturing on here. I bet you’re as quiet as a mouse in the messroom.

As I’ve said before if you disagree with the strike action (as you’re perfectly entitled to) you should resign from the union and go to work on strike days. Otherwise that makes you a hypocrite.

You clearly have an agenda, as others have noted.



Is that addressed to me? I’m neither an RMT member nor a guard and I don’t work for Northern.

No its addressed to the RMT members on here and you have stated your not one of them. I'm asking why they haven't called another ballot in spite of them shouting out that they have overwhelming support.

 

[muz379]

Aslef cannot decide to strike yet. They have no basis for being in dispute as they have not been approached with anything that could cause a dispute.

Any union sanctioned industrial action woulf end up im court - and having taking a decent sized financial hit the last time they did something like this aslef are not going to be bitten twice.

It's not really an opinion but fact that drivers feel strongly about this subject. Do not assume that the lack of action is down to drivers not wanting to do anything. The company will not at any point discuss doo with aslef in talks as they know the second they do its out on the table and a dispute is imminent.

To be fair ASLEF could do as the RMT did and go to Northern asking for a discussion and committent to a second safety critical member of staff on all trains , and that this second safety critical member of staff retains control of the doors . The logical conclusion is that the company would then have to decline to make these guarantees , ASLEF could have a fail to agree on it and it could go through the usual processes which lead to a ballot .

I think there are several reasons that the ASLEF full time officer for Northern is not going to do that anytime soon . I think one of them is pressure from above in the union . But only time will tell .

Indeed, and as I pointed out in an earlier post, Northern Drivers are currently on a roll with regards to pay and conditions just recently. ASLEF have been in negotiation with Northern for a good while over a whole range of issues in recognition of the fact that major changes are coming in the form of brand new trains and routes which will require a bit of change in the current working practices.

Pay is still a collective bargaining issue , as much as the company and ASLEF want an end to this it is yet to happen so any discussions around the pay claim take place as joint negotiations between all 4 unions recognised by Northern .

There is a working group between ASLEF and the company trying to discuss conditions and one of the committed obligations is harmonisation , something which presents a massive challenge to both company and ASLEF and something I can see being a massive sticking point and leading to some tough negotiations and possibly a dispute .

Trouble is if unions actually chose to persue that extreme scenario, pretty comprehensive anti strike legislation would likley follow, ensuring ASLEF etc would loose a lot of negotiatiing power permanently,

What if its just the membership collectively deciding not to sign the new contracts without any union input , involvement or sanction . I mean look at what Merseyrail drivers managed to organise without any official sanction or organisation from ASLEF .

It would only take a proportion of drivers to take this stance and the plan would fail . Lets say 25% of drivers took up that position . That alone would be disruptive enough . Anything 50% or over would lead to massive shut down of services for a long period .

No stirring about it, simply pointing out what the plan is ( as per our own LDC ). Clearly you are not as clued in to this as I am. It will only get settled once the RMT move away from their current position. Which doesnt seem likely at the moment. Worth pointing out that we should have had a pay rise in April. That wont be happening until this is settled.

As above , pay claims are handled as a collective bargaining issue . Might be worth advising ASLEF , TSSA and UNITE of this . Because their reaction could be interesting .

Meetings have taken place this week to discuss the pay claim . Lets be honest about this (if you actually are a guard) you will know that it is not unusual for the pay claim to be settled later on in the year . I've known it be settled as late as November with an agreement for backpay to be paid in early december .

Whilst you are discussing this with the LDC why not also ask them about the details which came out of the talks the RMT and Northern had last month . Might give you some detail in answer to the next question .

So no one actually knows the finer detail of what is being proposed, so what exactly is the strike about then?

See above , ask the LDC

So like everybody else on this thread you dont actually know anything. As it stands today, no service on the Northern Network runs without a guard controlling doors. The smart opinion on here would suggest that a starting point would be the new Northern Connect services which call at stations with staff on the platforms. So clearly there will be no issue with getting wheelchair passengers on and off. However there still has to be a negotiation with ASLEF about drivers operating doors on the new trains.

Problem with that is what happens if a station is unstaffed for any reason . I was just hearing yesterday about an incident in which a member of station staff failed to turn up (for whatever reason) at a station , leaving passengers to have to cross the line on ballast because the overbridge can only be accessed through the building . Stations that are supposed to be manned full time being uncovered is really not a rare occurrence . You only have to look on the work phone to see regular messages from control about it .

You are not as well informed as you think you are......

seconded

Let me put you absolutely 100% straight so as there is no ambiguity whatsoever. The small number of tub thumping union members for Northern on here are in no way representative of the work place. A second ballot would kill this strike stone dead in its tracks. Make sure you understand that and it is crystal clear in your mind.

And lets also be clear about the fact that the table thumping mess room lawyers are yet to put any money where their mouth is and either come in , come to branch meetings to have their say , contact executive committee members to have their say or do anything but moan about it to other mess room lawyers and anybody else kind enough to listen . If you really think that listening to these people is any indication of the actual mood of those in grade especially in light of the information that has come out of the recent talks then I think you would be shocked if there was another ballot .

 

[furnessvale]

It is clear that in future many less well used trains will be driver only. Obviously that causes some anxiety in the ranks of the guards / conductors. Years ago, there was a category of 'passed fireman' who although not a fully qualified driver, did have considerable railway experience and could drive a train in certain circumstances - would a modern reincarnation be helpful here? Perhaps, if it is not already the case, a commitment to providing driver training for an agreed number of conductor / guards each year might help to solve the problem? Of course, that would not answer the unions loss of members though, which may be a bigger concern to them!

You may not fully understand what passed cleaners and passed firemen were.

In each case they were substantive in their own grade AND had passed all the require exams etc for the next grade ie for a passed cleaner the next grade was fireman, for a passed fireman the next grade was driver.

The ONLY thing missing was a vacancy at the depot for his appointment as a full time fireman or driver. Thus passed men were used for such things as holiday cover or seasonal additional traffic, reverting to their normal grade work at slacker times.

In no way were they some sort of part qualified man.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see Merseyrail seem to have agreed a deal which is basically Southern-style OBS with a bit of extra training.

This being the case, I can't see how Northern could end up with anything else? Will we now get a fairly quick resolution along those lines - safety trained OBS who don't operate doors but do sell tickets?

 

[Confused52]

I see Merseyrail seem to have agreed a deal which is basically Southern-style OBS with a bit of extra training.

This being the case, I can't see how Northern could end up with anything else? Will we now get a fairly quick resolution along those lines - safety trained OBS who don't operate doors but do sell tickets?

.... and the difference between that and what the Northern Franchise requirement asked for is what?

Now how can the strikes and disruption caused possibly be justified since if what you say is true it clearly wasn't actually about Northern was it?

 

[Moonshot]

I see Merseyrail seem to have agreed a deal which is basically Southern-style OBS with a bit of extra training.

This being the case, I can't see how Northern could end up with anything else? Will we now get a fairly quick resolution along those lines - safety trained OBS who don't operate doors but do sell tickets?

So if that is indeed the case, it's pretty much the guards job as it is now but without the worry of doors. You would have to wonder exactly why anyone has gone on strike in the first place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if that is indeed the case, it's pretty much the guards job as it is now but without the worry of doors. You would have to wonder exactly why anyone has gone on strike in the first place.

Quite.