Arriva Rail North DOO

[Shaw S Hunter]

We know Northern drivers feel strongly about it the same as Southern drivers and probably every other company involved in this dispute, problem is DOO has been specified in the contract and the government will not be backing down, not now, the dispute is too far gone at this stage. I do not understand where this view is that ASLEF and RMT can demand whatever they want when its not that easy in reality. The company will simply play their old tricks, which is imposing a contract, either you sign it or you are effectively making yourself redundant. The unions will be treading carefully, because the problem with that is that they can decide your terms and conditions. ARN is a traditional franchise so they will be happy to make any savings they possibly can, unlike GTR which is all costed and paid for by the government.

I do not believe Northern, or any other TOC, will ever exercise the "nuclear" option of fire and re-hire as a way of imposing changes to drivers' contracts. It is an incredibly risky approach: if ASLEF members stick together and refuse to comply then suddenly you have no drivers left. Under normal circumstances it takes 12-14 months to train a new recruit off the street but even that relies on them being able to spend a considerable period shadowing a Driver Instructor. But if all the DIs have gone then that 12-14 months is completely unachievable: it would take several years to rebuild your complement by which time the need for them will have gone in any case. Far more realistic to simply throw money at the existing workforce assuming they will accept it and the amount required is acceptable going forward. And if not you are back to more or less maintaining the status quo by simply moving to driver open, guard close, achievable at virtually no immediate cost and avoiding any further costly disputes. If you want to go "nuclear" you might just as well shut the railways down completely: not even the Tories are that politically reckless.

If Northern Drivers feel so strongly about it why arnt they striking? This is half the problem. If RMT and Aslef got together the government would at some point have to intervene. Reality is despite your argument that the drivers do feel strongly we have seen no action.

I get the impression from your posts that you are a very frustrated outsider who expected that strike action would quickly lead to a negotiated settlement. But ultimately this is a dispute arising from a political decision which makes things much more complicated. ASLEF got its fingers burned with the GatEx 12-car DOO issue so you can be sure they are now treading carefully. Accordingly they will not go into dispute until forced to do so by the arrival of the new trains. Of course that moment is not too far away now.

Why would northern sign so restrictive a deal, that they clearly and knowingly could have agreed from the outset and prevented the strike ballot even taking place .The recent GA deal at least shows things have moved forward a bit, since the initial GWR, Southern and Scotrail disputes, where drivers refused to negotiate on door closing

Your faux naivete does not suit you. Northern are merely pawns in a wider political dispute. Whatever means is used to resolve the dispute Northern will do nothing notable without the say-so of the DfT. Were it otherwise I have no doubt that real-world railway managers would have come up with an agreeable arrangement many months ago.

 

[Carlisle]

I do not believe Northern, or any other TOC, will ever exercise the "nuclear" option of fire and re-hire as a way of imposing changes to drivers' contracts. It is an incredibly risky approach: if ASLEF members stick together and refuse to comply then suddenly you have no drivers left. Under normal circumstances it takes 12-14 months to train a new recruit off the street

Trouble is if unions actually chose to persue that extreme scenario, pretty comprehensive anti strike legislation would likley follow, ensuring ASLEF etc would loose a lot of negotiatiing power permanently,

 

[CN75]

Trouble is if unions actually chose to persue that extreme scenario, pretty comprehensive anti strike legislation would likley follow, ensuring ASLEF etc would loose a lot of negotiatiing power permanently,

ASLEF is a national train driver’s union. Bankruptcy, stronger anti-union legislation, implosion of discipline of drivers crossing picket lines, national divisions, the Supreme Court judging that train driver strikes are incompatible with the law, rewriting of terms and conditions at the company’s pleasure would all be reasons ASLEF won’t risk it all just for the Northern guards dispute. The DfT showed that a drivers strike would be faced up at Southern and ASLEF blinked.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

ASLEF is a national train driver’s union. Bankruptcy, stronger anti-union legislation, implosion of discipline of drivers crossing picket lines, national divisions, the Supreme Court judging that train driver strikes are incompatible with the law, rewriting of terms and conditions at the company’s pleasure would all be reasons ASLEF won’t risk it all just for the Northern guards dispute. The DfT showed that a drivers strike would be faced up at Southern and ASLEF blinked.

You might be right. OTOH Southern drivers already had provision for DOO(P) in their contracts. Northern drivers do not.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Strike day train and replacement bus times for this Saturday 1st September are now on Northern's website: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike

 

[Andyh82]

Strike day train and replacement bus times for this Saturday 1st September are now on Northern's website: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike

Much more comprehensive than last week.

The Calder Valley has a service, as does the via Brighouse route, as does the Penistone line.

 

[Kite159]

Much more comprehensive than last week.

The Calder Valley has a service, as does the via Brighouse route, as does the Penistone line.

However at a glance the 3 trains to/from Hull - York which ran last Saturday have been replaced by buses

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I cannot see ASLEF refusing to co-operate and effectively putting their members out of a job, the majority of drivers have a family to provide for and would not put themselves out of a job over DOO whatever guards think, as everyone has said before look at the Southern dispute. They have effectively made a template for any future deal, they cannot all of a sudden go in a different direction. ASLEF were doing all they could to get the drivers to accept the new operating practices. Arriva have signed a contract with the DfT to introduce DOO on services, Driver open, guard close is not DOO and not what they are holding out for. I honestly cannot see the government backing down now, after all of these strikes. They would look like idiots.

 

[geoffk]

Arriva have signed a contract with the DfT to introduce DOO on services, Driver open, guard close is not DOO and not what they are holding out for. I honestly cannot see the government backing down now, after all of these strikes. They would look like idiots.

This Government has looked like idiots for a while. Nothing new there. Current legal challenges over brexit could possibly force a General Election, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Northern can guarantee whatever they want that the franchise agreement does not say they cannot do.

The franchise agreement does not say that Northern cannot guarantee a free pink party hat with a bobble on top and a red ribbon top to every passenger.

Northern can therefore guarantee a free pink party hat with a bobble on top and a red ribbon top to every passenger.

The franchise agreement does not say that Northern cannot guarantee a second member of safety critical staff on every train.

Northern can therefore guarantee a second member of safety critical staff on every train.

Ok, I understand what you are saying, it doesn't directly say they can't, therefore they can.

However, how does guaranteeing a 2nd member of staff (of any sort) fit with "by the driver alone without the need for a conductor or any other franchise employee"??

Surely guaranteeing a 2nd member of staff means the train is not operated by the driver alone and there IS a need for another franchise employee? Which surely is against what the franchise says?

 

[Moonshot]

Just in case people are not aware, strike action is likely to be called every Saturday up to Xmas.

 

[ComUtoR]

However, how does guaranteeing a 2nd member of staff (of any sort) fit with "by the driver alone without the need for a conductor or any other franchise employee"??

In this statement you missed 'operated' and that is important.

Surely guaranteeing a 2nd member of staff means the train is not operated by the driver alone and there IS a need for another franchise employee? Which surely is against what the franchise says?

Taking both statements together.

The train is OPERATED by the Driver alone. They do the doors (open and close) and they drive it. Essentially that is all that is required. Just because there is a second member of staff on board doesn't mean they are involved with the train whatsoever. They don't need to be there as they aren't doing anything. What the franchise is saying is that this situation is what is required. Driver is operating the unit and the second member of staff that is REQUIRED under the redacted conditions in only responsible for customer service and revenue. This is DCO as also stated by the franchise agreement.

As someone mentioned upthread. They could keep that second member of staff onboard every train, which would placate the staff side and fulfill their franchise obligations but they cannot guarantee that they would still remain as Guards with any responsibilities towards any duties that require the running of the train.

 

[Carlisle]

Just in case people are not aware, strike action is likely to be called every Saturday up to Xmas.

So if that happens ,it’ll reduce the willingness or even ability of the current government to back down to virtually zero, unless the RMTs privy to reliable information indicating an election shortly .

 

[Killingworth]

Just in case people are not aware, strike action is likely to be called every Saturday up to Xmas.

Followed by strikes every Sunday when no changes can be agreed?

In the meantime ticket machines (that work maybe 70% of the time, see separate thread) are appearing across the network, even at stations with very low passenger numbers, which should make conductors jobs easier.

The world moves on. Many intending rail passengers will move by car. We were planning a Saturday station to station group walk in the Peak District, return by train, to commemorate 125 years of the opening of the Dore and Chinley railway in November. Publicity to launch any day. Forget it. If there aren't going to be reliable trains what's the point?

 

[footprints]

Just in case people are not aware, strike action is likely to be called every Saturday up to Xmas.

Clearly the RMT aren't familiar with the definition of insanity. How can members genuinely still have any confidence in the abject leadership of Cash and co? Is Mick going for the record of number of strike days which achieve absolutely nothing?

 

[Robertj21a]

Clearly the RMT aren't familiar with the definition of insanity. How can members genuinely still have any confidence in the abject leadership of Cash and co? Is Mick going for the record of number of strike days which achieve absolutely nothing?

All of the authority of his predecessor but without the skills or brain that should accompany it.
Amazing that the ordinary members still put up with it.

 

[Overspeed110]

Just in case people are not aware, strike action is likely to be called every Saturday up to Xmas.

You just can't resist stirring it, can you?

If they do strike every Saturday, good on them. Perhaps the tinpot company you claim to work for will finally get the message that this dispute rapidly needs to come to an amicable conclusion.

 

[Carlisle]

this dispute rapidly needs to come to an amicable conclusion.

Perhaps this process should begin by informing the RMT of the correct meaning of ‘amicable ‘

 

[Overspeed110]

Perhaps this process should begin by informing the RMT of the correct meaning of ‘amicable ‘

Perhaps this process should begin by informing Arriva rail north of the correct meaning of 'amicable'.

 

[Moonshot]

You just can't resist stirring it, can you?

If they do strike every Saturday, good on them. Perhaps the tinpot company you claim to work for will finally get the message that this dispute rapidly needs to come to an amicable conclusion.

No stirring about it, simply pointing out what the plan is ( as per our own LDC ). Clearly you are not as clued in to this as I am. It will only get settled once the RMT move away from their current position. Which doesnt seem likely at the moment. Worth pointing out that we should have had a pay rise in April. That wont be happening until this is settled.

 

[Carlisle]

Perhaps this process should begin by informing Arriva rail north of the correct meaning of 'amicable'.

Ok if we’ve witnessed instances of intimidation, bullying , constructive dismissal etc from ARN management resulting from this dispute. I’ll 100% agree with you, but not if your merely rather annoyed they’re actually obliged to carry out their contractual commitments

 

[northwichcat]

will finally get the message that this dispute rapidly needs to come to an amicable conclusion.

I understand Northern have offered:
- Guarantee of continuous employment for all personnel currently employed as guards until at least 2025.
- A guarantee that guards will remain on the guard pay grade.
- Annual pay reviews until 2025.

While the RMT effectively want a guarantee that not only does every guard remain working in a guard role but additional guards are employed for additional services, so there is one guard on every train which runs.

If that's true then it's the RMT who need to shift their position to reach an 'amicable conclusion.' Northern have made a reasonable offer* to the RMT for their existing guard members while the RMT are trying to dictate Northern's future recruitment policy and the way they provide services to passengers. They don't like DfT doing that but think it's acceptable for them to make demands like that - double standards!

* I accept it still needs exact details sorting out but it's an 'amicable' starting point.

 

[Overspeed110]

Ok if we’ve witnessed instances of intimidation, bullying , constructive dismissal etc from ARN management resulting from this dispute. I’ll 100% agree with you, but not if your merely rather annoyed they’re actually obliged to carry out their contractual commitments

I've heard that there have been instances of harassment / intimidation / leaning on / bullying etc of office staff from up and coming middle "management" types during the initial "recruitment" stages of some of the people who have become stand in guards.

Regarding contractual commitments, there is clearly room to manoeuvre. The RMT now seem willing to negotiate up to a point, however, at present, Northern clearly do not.

 

[Moonshot]

I understand Northern have offered:
- Guarantee of continuous employment for all personnel currently employed as guards until at least 2025.
- A guarantee that guards will remain on the guard pay grade.
- Annual pay reviews until 2025.

While the RMT effectively want a guarantee that not only does every guard remain working in a guard role but additional guards are employed for additional services, so there is one guard on every train which runs.

If that's true then it's the RMT who need to shift their position to reach an 'amicable conclusion.' Northern have made a reasonable offer* to the RMT for their existing guard members while the RMT are trying to dictate Northern's future recruitment policy and the way they provide services to passengers. They don't like DfT doing that but think it's acceptable for them to make demands like that - double standards!

* I accept it still needs exact details sorting out but it's an 'amicable' starting point.

Yes that has always been there, and Northern are still taking on new guards. As you have pointed out in the past , 50% of mileage is DCO according to the T and Cs of the franchise, which still leaves plenty of routes which will need a guard for the foreseeable future.

 

[Overspeed110]

Yes that has always been there, and Northern are still taking on new guards. As you have pointed out in the past , 50% of mileage is DCO according to the T and Cs of the franchise, which still leaves plenty of routes which will need a guard for the foreseeable future.

It's a minimum 50%, so a starting point. No one on here knows the ins and outs.

They're still taking on guards because they're constantly leaving, people retiring etc, not to mention that the company still want to run more services for which they still don't have enough guards!

 

[northwichcat]

It's a minimum 50%, so a starting point. No one on here knows the ins and outs.

A minimum in the sense that Northern can't make 46.7% of passenger mileage DCO and claim it's near enough 50%.

There is a maximum number if anyone wants to work it out (it's not straight forward) - what proportion of passenger mileage would be done by 195s and 331s if the 195s are concentrated on semi-fast services and doubling up is done with the existing trains as much as possible. Even without that we know as the majority of the trains won't be DCO compatible that it can't be much higher than 50% unless the franchise agreement is changed e.g. if the 319s and 333s are replaced by 331s or similar.

 

[Moonshot]

It's a minimum 50%, so a starting point. No one on here knows the ins and outs.

They're still taking on guards because they're constantly leaving, people retiring etc, not to mention that the company still want to run more services for which they still don't have enough guards!

So no one actually knows the finer detail of what is being proposed, so what exactly is the strike about then?

 

[scrapy]

Yes that has always been there, and Northern are still taking on new guards. As you have pointed out in the past , 50% of mileage is DCO according to the T and Cs of the franchise, which still leaves plenty of routes which will need a guard for the foreseeable future.

It was a minimum of 50% in the invitation to tender. It is not in the public domain what the actual figure that was agreed is. I asked the question of a director at a meet the manager session and he claimed he didn't know. When pushed again he said let's not get into figures. I get the impression the actual figure is higher than 50%.

 

[northwichcat]

It was a minimum of 50% in the invitation to tender. It is not in the public domain what the actual figure that was agreed is. I asked the question of a director at a meet the manager session and he claimed he didn't know. When pushed again he said let's not get into figures. I get the impression the actual figure is higher than 50%.

Isn't that a trick question? If he gives an exact figure then he's effectively confirmed the DCO routes are fixed and they can't be changed with negotiations with the unions, while if he doesn't give a figure then it's presumed it's higher than it needs to be.

 

[Moonshot]

It was a minimum of 50% in the invitation to tender. It is not in the public domain what the actual figure that was agreed is. I asked the question of a director at a meet the manager session and he claimed he didn't know. When pushed again he said let's not get into figures. I get the impression the actual figure is higher than 50%.

So like everybody else on this thread you dont actually know anything. As it stands today, no service on the Northern Network runs without a guard controlling doors. The smart opinion on here would suggest that a starting point would be the new Northern Connect services which call at stations with staff on the platforms. So clearly there will be no issue with getting wheelchair passengers on and off. However there still has to be a negotiation with ASLEF about drivers operating doors on the new trains.