Have/will the MK4 coaches leave the ECML?

[poshbakerloo]

Have/will the MK4 coaches leave the ECML?

I have never been on a MK4 coach, I always think they look great! The last 'real' train coach to be built before all the express D/EMUs were built...

Is it only NXEC that run them in the 225 sets?

 

[MCR247]

Only NXEC run them in 225 sets

 

[Crossforth]

The MK4 sets won't be leaving the ECML till 2013 at the earliest as this is that start of the introduction of the new IEPs and the HSTs will probabley be replaced first so I think we are stuck (not that this is a bad thing) with them for a few more years

 

[Turbostar]

The MK4 sets won't be leaving the ECML till 1013 at the earliest...

Is this a new service on the ECML??? lolol

 

[Bayum]

Is this a new service on the ECML??? lolol

No, but like he said - the IEP is meant to be introduced then....

 

[jopsuk]

The IEP was supposed to be introduced 996 years ago? Read what he actually wrote!

 

[Turbostar]

No, but like he said - the IEP is meant to be introduced then....

It was meant as a joke! doh! :roll:

 

[Royston Vasey]

The MK4 sets won't be leaving the ECML till 1013 at the earliest as this is that start of the introduction of the new IEPs and the HSTs will probabley be replaced first so I think we are stuck (not that this is a bad thing) with them for a few more years

Cascaded then onto the GEML at this point I reckon, though this is entirely a suggestion based on common sense so is in no way informed by any real knowledge!

Or of course, sold abroad...

 

[Daimler]

I seem to recall seeing something about 2017 being the year when IEPs replace the whole lot of the Mk4s on the ECML.

 

[kestrel]

Cascaded then onto the GEML at this point I reckon, though this is entirely a suggestion based on common sense so is in no way informed by any real knowledge!

Or of course, sold abroad...

doubt it, GE is going to all unit operations in a few years ;o)

MML would be a good bet with the wires extended ;o)

but IEP is a long wayoff yet anyway, with the lack of funds the project will still go through but will be delayed so would think about 2018ish!

 

[Crossforth]

All I heard was that 2013 was the time when the first sets were to be introduced so it will be years after that before the 225s disappear.

I think it was determined that the 225s wouldn't be going to the MML even with extended wires the acceleration times were alot longer than the 222s.

Let's start saving and we may get one for preservation

 

[driver9000]

Apart from one set making it to Manchester in the early 90s for an Olympics bid promotion I dont think they have ever strayed from the ECML so far....

 

[route:oxford]

I think it was determined that the 225s wouldn't be going to the MML even with extended wires the acceleration times were alot longer than the 222s.

Whilst the existing Locos have poor acceleration, surely the coaching stock would be capable of being accelerated more rapidly with a better designed unit...

Is there suitable space to locate a 25Kv cable the length of a Mk4 Carriage to enable top&tail power?

 

[Darandio]

Surely 6300hp means it isn't no slouch! Are they not just held back or are there higher forces at work?

 

[Oswyntail]

Surely 6300hp means it isn't no slouch! Are they not just held back or are there higher forces at work?

IIRC, they are geared for long sprints at line speed (appropriately for the ECML) rather than the more start/stop nature of the MML (which benefits from the higher acceleration)

 

[jonhewes]

I think it was determined that the 225s wouldn't be going to the MML even with extended wires the acceleration times were alot longer than the 222s.

I’d heard something similar, lets not forget though, the MK IV DVT is also compatible with other electric locomotives too. During the Class 91 refurbishment programme, Class 90s were frequently diagrammed onto MK IV sets. Despite the fact that they were limited to 110 MPH, in some cases they were able to keep to time due to superior acceleration. In theory, I also believe that it would be possible for Class 86s & 87s to work with MK IV formations.

The Class 91s are currently geared for a top service speed of 140 MPH, as a result, on the 125 MPH ECML, acceleration is poorer than it needs to be.

If acceleration is an issue on the MML, there are two realistic options which could be applied.

1) Regear the 91s for 125 MPH operation instead of 140 MPH in order to improve acceleration
2) Use Class 90s.
3) Reduce the timings of services to accommodate the 91s, the disadvantage caused by the slightly slower service will be negated by the additional capacity gained.

Realistically, I don’t envisage that any of the above will happen when the MKIV sets are displaced by the IEP.

I expect that the coaches and DVT will be sold off, possibly purchased and modified by DB for use on 67 hauled Chiltern/WSMR services.

91s could possibly see further use with MKIV sets with new owners, or on mail trains. I don’t think that the future looks good for them though.

The next decade will be a very interesting one!

 

[Aictos]

I’d heard something similar, lets not forget though, the MK IV DVT is also compatible with other electric locomotives too. During the Class 91 refurbishment programme, Class 90s were frequently diagrammed onto MK IV sets. Despite the fact that they were limited to 110 MPH, in some cases they were able to keep to time due to superior acceleration. In theory, I also believe that it would be possible for Class 86s & 87s to work with MK IV formations.

The Class 91s are currently geared for a top service speed of 140 MPH, as a result, on the 125 MPH ECML, acceleration is poorer than it needs to be.

If acceleration is an issue on the MML, there are two realistic options which could be applied.

1) Regear the 91s for 125 MPH operation instead of 140 MPH in order to improve acceleration
2) Use Class 90s.
3) Reduce the timings of services to accommodate the 91s, the disadvantage caused by the slightly slower service will be negated by the additional capacity gained.

Realistically, I don’t envisage that any of the above will happen when the MKIV sets are displaced by the IEP.

I expect that the coaches and DVT will be sold off, possibly purchased and modified by DB for use on 67 hauled Chiltern/WSMR services.

91s could possibly see further use with MKIV sets with new owners, or on mail trains. I don’t think that the future looks good for them though.

The next decade will be a very interesting one!

That being said if 91s were going to be re-geared to a top speed of 125mph rather then the 140mph capability, surely the same must or should happen to the 390s as well?

I don't see either traction ever reaching 140mph in public service not until a long long time in the future with our country's history of rail investment so by re-gearing both to 125mph maximum, the acceleration will be vastly improved which can only help the timings by reducing the times of journeys.

As to 91s being used on mail trains, I think that's highly unlikely but stranger things have happened...

 

[jonhewes]

I think that the Pendolinos do quite well in terms of acceleration regardless of their top speed. They have the benefit of being multiple units and being of a more modern design.

One thing which is worth noting, which helps explain their superior acceleration, is that Pendolinos are actually more poluting per passenger KM than a 91/MKIV set

 

[Crossforth]

Am I correct in saying that 91s are already geared to 125mph and not 140mph as only 3 of the 4 traction motors run owing to the 4th one being isolated during the last re-furb?

 

[jonhewes]

Am I correct in saying that 91s are already geared to 125mph and not 140mph as only 3 of the 4 traction motors run owing to the 4th one being isolated during the last re-furb?

What I'm referring to is the speed at which the motor has to turn in order to rotate the wheels at a specific rate, which in turn dictates the maximum speed of the train. Eg at 100 mph the traction motors in the lower geared class 90 would be turning considerably faster than those of a higher geared class 91 travelling at the same speed.

I find the concept of isolated traction motors in a class 91 highly unlikely as it would impact the acceleration aswell as top speed.

 

[Phoenix]

What I'm referring to is the speed at which the motor has to turn in order to rotate the wheels at a specific rate, which in turn dictates the maximum speed of the train. Eg at 100 mph the traction motors in the lower geared class 90 would be turning considerably faster than those of a higher geared class 91 travelling at the same speed.

I find the concept of isolated traction motors in a class 91 highly unlikely as it would impact the acceleration aswell as top speed.

No your correct Isolating traction motors is not really an option for anything in top link service or really anything in working condition for that matter the point is that all traction motors are required to created the desired effect of all the components.

The point is I believe (so not true fact) is that traction motors work in harmony with one another at the same time and are in separate entities due to the amount of wheel sets so really taking on away wouldn't reduce top speed it would make it harder to achieve and put strain on the rest of the motors and possibly (i dunno0 leave to much spare Voltage for the other motors)

Again not fact (before I get shot down) but an educated guess0

 

[asylumxl]

the cost of regearing the 91s would be prohobitive. Also, the 91s would increase trackwear when compared to the 222s.

The 222 is perfect for the route it serves.

 

[jonhewes]

the cost of regearing the 91s would be prohobitive. Also, the 91s would increase trackwear when compared to the 222s.

The 222 is perfect for the route it serves.

I'm not sure what the cost would be, though I doubt it would too expensive. There are/were various subclasses of Class 86 which had been regeared for slower freight work (where low end power is more important than speed)and others which had been regeared for 110 MPH operation (instead of the standard 100 MP).

In terms of track wear, I don't think there would be much in it. A 91 MKIV set consists of a 81 tonne loco, and then lots of light, unpowered vehicles. Comparatively, a similair length Voyager/Meridian would consist of 8/9 medium weight vehicles .

Network Rail actually found and documented that track wear increased following the displacement of 47s/MKIIs from Cross Country.

The Meridian is quite a nice unit, far superior to the 14x/15x units inherited from BR, however its fuel consumption and carbon footprint are far from ideal.

 

[captainbigun]

No 86s were re-geared for 110mph operation.

86/1s - fitted with BP9 bogies as a prototype for the later Class 87
86/2s - AEI282BZ motors. Built for passenger operation at 100mph, some certified for 110mph operation (no modifications).
86/0/3/4 - AEI28AZ motors. Mixed use, 100mph max.

The Voyager and derivatives suffer from having small wheels, these aren't good for the track.

The Class 91s had their tilt PSUs removed (these were fitted from new as it was anticipated the Mk4s may be fitted with tilting bogies), the halon replacing Inergen fire suppression bottles took their place. There was no change to the gearing. The safety case now covers 125mph operation and not 140 operation. You need all four motors for acceleration, less so for maintaining speed. It's not uncommon for a loco to run with motors isolated.

 

[royaloak]

. There are/were various subclasses of Class 86 which had been regeared for slower freight work (where low end power is more important than speed)and others which had been regeared for 110 MPH operation (instead of the standard 100 MP).

Only one 86 was regeared 86501 all the others(86/1 excepted with their 87 bogies) had the same gear ratio 22-65

 

[captainbigun]

Not quite.

86/2s run 26:61 and 86/0/3/4/6 ran/run 22:65. The original 86/5s were 86/2s re-geared to 22:65, this married the better 282BZ motor with the gear ratio which provided better tractive effort.

The current 86/5 is 18:70.

 

[Kneedown]

86/2s - AEI282BZ motors. Built for passenger operation at 100mph, some certified for 110mph operation (no modifications)

Not strictly true. They had the Stone-Faiveley and GEC pantographs removed to be replaced with the Brecknell-Willis highspeed design.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it was determined that the 225s wouldn't be going to the MML even with extended wires the acceleration times were alot longer than the 222s.

But they would be more of a replacement for HST's rather than 222's.

 

[captainbigun]

Yes, fair enough they were fitted with BW pans (I know this well having been involved with putting 86701 and 86702 back out.....), but not exactly what I'd call a modification.

 

[Kneedown]

Yes, fair enough they were fitted with BW pans (I know this well having been involved with putting 86701 and 86702 back out.....), but not exactly what I'd call a modification.

Perhaps i've been driving too long. The new "retro" style master switch on our refurb 158's is classed as a modification, in fact i think the new shade of blue in the cabs (as opposed to grey) is too!

 

[Helvellyn]

There could have been IC225s on the West Coast. Prior to privatisation funding was available to build some new trains after the cancellation of the IC250.

The options were 16 IC225 sets for the West Coast or 41 365 Networker Express units for the Kent Coast and Great Northern. The Networker option won out and thus the additional IC225 units weren't built.

As I recall, the West Coast IC225 units would have been used on Euston to Manchester and Liverpool services, allowing the cascade of the Mark 3 sets used there to replace the Mark 2F sets used mainly on the Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton services, and a few Anglo-Scottish services. It would have allowed all West Coast services to be either Mark 3 or Mark 4 operated, with loco-hauled CrossCountry services virtually all operated with Mark 2F stock.