Delay Repay Combining and an Advance and Season Ticket?

[KingJ]

Towards the end of July, I made a journey from Coventry to Tonbridge - using a VTWC Advance to go from Coventry to London Euston, and then my Annual Tonbridge - London Terminals + Z1-6 season to go from London Euston to Tonbridge. Unfortunately, Virgin had some delays that day and I ended up in Euston 41 minutes late, and ultimately 30-59 minutes later into Tonbridge than I should have been.

Virgin quickly paid out for the delay on their leg of the journey, but have completely ignored any mention i've made to the delay to my overall journey and have recently gone completely silent on me.

Although I think I was right to put in the claim with Virgin as the ToC on which I experienced the delay, i'm unsure exactly where their responsibilities lie on Delay Repay when i'm combining tickets across a journey. I know multiple tickets are considered to be valid for a single overall journey, but does this then also extend to Delay Repay for the journey?

I'm unsure too how this would be calculated - Virgin paid out at 50% for their leg of the journey based on a 30-59 minute delay, but a typical claim on my season for a delay between London/Tonbridge would be paid out at 1/928th of my annual season ticket cost. Would the calculation be based off Virgin's formula plus Southeastern's formula, or would it be based on a completely separate calculation for a Coventry to Tonbridge delay? If so, how would that calculation work?

Finally, if there's any advice anyone can give on how to poke Virgin in to action i'd greatly welcome it! It's now been more than 28 days since my original delay repay claim submission and attempts to contact them subsequently have resulted in no response so i'm not sure how best to proceed - would it be time to take it up with a body such as Transport Focus?

Thanks all

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Towards the end of July, I made a journey from Coventry to Tonbridge - using a VTWC Advance to go from Coventry to London Euston, and then my Annual Tonbridge - London Terminals + Z1-6 season to go from London Euston to Tonbridge. Unfortunately, Virgin had some delays that day and I ended up in Euston 41 minutes late, and ultimately 30-59 minutes later into Tonbridge than I should have been.

Virgin quickly paid out for the delay on their leg of the journey, but have completely ignored any mention i've made to the delay to my overall journey and have recently gone completely silent on me.

Although I think I was right to put in the claim with Virgin as the ToC on which I experienced the delay, i'm unsure exactly where their responsibilities lie on Delay Repay when i'm combining tickets across a journey. I know multiple tickets are considered to be valid for a single overall journey, but does this then also extend to Delay Repay for the journey?

I'm unsure too how this would be calculated - Virgin paid out at 50% for their leg of the journey based on a 30-59 minute delay, but a typical claim on my season for a delay between London/Tonbridge would be paid out at 1/928th of my annual season ticket cost. Would the calculation be based off Virgin's formula plus Southeastern's formula, or would it be based on a completely separate calculation for a Coventry to Tonbridge delay? If so, how would that calculation work?

Finally, if there's any advice anyone can give on how to poke Virgin in to action i'd greatly welcome it! It's now been more than 28 days since my original delay repay claim submission and attempts to contact them subsequently have resulted in no response so i'm not sure how best to proceed - would it be time to take it up with a body such as Transport Focus?

Thanks all

View attachment 51751

As always, the TOC which is liable for compensation is the one which first caused your journey to be delayed. When you use a combination of tickets to make one journey, you are entitled to compensation based on the combined value of all your tickets. Everything is assessed on the basis of the liable TOC's compensation scheme - regardless of what other TOCs you may have used during your journey.

Now it just so happens that VTWC's Delay Repay scheme offers the same levels of compensation, and has the same thresholds, as Southeastern's scheme.

So yes, you are entitled to the appropriate compensation on the value of your season ticket in addition to what you have already received in respect of your Advance ticket.

Have you received any kind of reference number or automatic response in relation to your follow up emails? If you have not then this means you may have sent your emails to an unmonitored inbox. If you have already got a reference then it may be worth phoning them to enquire what the status of the matter is. If not, it is equally probably worth phoning.

I would persist in trying to come to an amicable agreement with them before going further - at the moment it sounds like they have simply just not got round to responding. I doubt they would blank you, even if they're trying to avoid paying; it's more likely they'd actually explicitly tell you they're not paying.

If all amicable attempts fail then you can either take it up with Transport Focus - but they are known for being slow and incompetent, plus they are merely a mediator and not an arbitrator (i.e. they do not issue binding rulings). You could try raising it with your MP but it seems a rather small issue to bring it up over. The alternative would be to take the matter to Court, or, if you paid your season ticket at least partly by credit card then you could make a S75 complaint against the credit card provider.

 

[cactustwirly]

As always, the TOC which is liable for compensation is the one which first caused your journey to be delayed. When you use a combination of tickets to make one journey, you are entitled to compensation based on the combined value of all your tickets. Everything is assessed on the basis of the liable TOC's compensation scheme - regardless of what other TOCs you may have used during your journey.

Now it just so happens that VTWC's Delay Repay scheme offers the same levels of compensation, and has the same thresholds, as Southeastern's scheme.

So yes, you are entitled to the appropriate compensation on the value of your season ticket in addition to what you have already received in respect of your Advance ticket.

Have you received any kind of reference number or automatic response in relation to your follow up emails? If you have not then this means you may have sent your emails to an unmonitored inbox. If you have already got a reference then it may be worth phoning them to enquire what the status of the matter is. If not, it is equally probably worth phoning.

I would persist in trying to come to an amicable agreement with them before going further - at the moment it sounds like they have simply just not got round to responding. I doubt they would blank you, even if they're trying to avoid paying; it's more likely they'd actually explicitly tell you they're not paying.

If all amicable attempts fail then you can either take it up with Transport Focus - but they are known for being slow and incompetent, plus they are merely a mediator and not an arbitrator (i.e. they do not issue binding rulings). You could try raising it with your MP but it seems a rather small issue to bring it up over. The alternative would be to take the matter to Court, or, if you paid your season ticket at least partly by credit card then you could make a S75 complaint against the credit card provider.

I would advise the OP to contact VTWC again, quoteing that the NRCoT states that they are liable for the compensation for the whole journey.
I would stick to that for now, as I doubt a S75 complaint would work.

 

[KingJ]

Have you received any kind of reference number or automatic response in relation to your follow up emails? If you have not then this means you may have sent your emails to an unmonitored inbox. If you have already got a reference then it may be worth phoning them to enquire what the status of the matter is. If not, it is equally probably worth phoning.

I've not unfortunately. I had replied back to my original delay repay email chain querying the lack of compensation for my onward journey, but I didn't receive a response. I then asked the Twitter team how best to proceed in light of this and they said that I should contact customer resolutions here. I used their online form there to send them an email, and got an automatic email from them after doing so which said they've received it and I should receive another email with a reference number 'soon' - but this was over a week ago now. I tried contacting their Twitter team again but i've had no reply after over 24 hours - hence why it feels like they're blanking me. I wouldn't expect them to do so and i'm sure it's likely that things have just fallen through the cracks somewhere but it does leave a bit of a sour taste in the mouth!

I am a little reluctant to phone as email does give me a very nice paper trail, but given other contact hasn't seemed to work out so far it might be the best option at this point?

If all amicable attempts fail then you can either take it up with Transport Focus - but they are known for being slow and incompetent, plus they are merely a mediator and not an arbitrator (i.e. they do not issue binding rulings). You could try raising it with your MP but it seems a rather small issue to bring it up over. The alternative would be to take the matter to Court, or, if you paid your season ticket at least partly by credit card then you could make a S75 complaint against the credit card provider.

Although it's quite an extreme measure, would I actually have grounds for a S75 claim? From the point of view of Southeastern, the delay I experienced was entirely Virgin's 'fault' (i'm lumping NR related faults in there too just for ease of attribution!) and hence they should be paying out even for the subsequent delay on my journey with Southeastern? It's all a little unclear where each TOC's responsibilities and obligations lie in a situation like this!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would advise the OP to contact VTWC again, quoteing that the NRCoT states that they are liable for the compensation for the whole journey.
I would stick to that for now, as I doubt a S75 complaint would work.

Indeed, I would not yet recommend going along either of the legal routes - though there is no obligation whatsoever to first pursue the supplier if there is a claim for breach of contract (as the credit card provider would then be jointly and severally liable - i.e. you can pursue one, the other, or both, whichever you prefer).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I've not unfortunately. I had replied back to my original delay repay email chain querying the lack of compensation for my onward journey, but I didn't receive a response. I then asked the Twitter team how best to proceed in light of this and they said that I should contact customer resolutions here. I used their online form there to send them an email, and got an automatic email from them after doing so which said they've received it and I should receive another email with a reference number 'soon' - but this was over a week ago now. I tried contacting their Twitter team again but i've had no reply after over 24 hours - hence why it feels like they're blanking me. I wouldn't expect them to do so and i'm sure it's likely that things have just fallen through the cracks somewhere but it does leave a bit of a sour taste in the mouth!

I am a little reluctant to phone as email does give me a very nice paper trail, but given other contact hasn't seemed to work out so far it might be the best option at this point?

You can record the call if you like - and this is possible on almost all phones by using a voice recorder whilst making the call (unfortunately some devices automatically terminate the recording when a call is started). If not, there are plenty of VoIP calling services which can record calls for you, and which charge very reasonable rates per minute. I can suggest some if you like.

VTWC's email system is a little different to most TOCs' in that it does not always give you a confirmation of receipt (and a reference number) immediately. I think it has to be manually done - and hence if there is a big backlog this could well take more than a week. I would continue to wait a little longer and then phone if nothing is forthcoming.

Although it's quite an extreme measure, would I actually have grounds for a S75 claim? From the point of view of Southeastern, the delay I experienced was entirely Virgin's 'fault' (i'm lumping NR related faults in there too just for ease of attribution!) and hence they should be paying out even for the subsequent delay on my journey with Southeastern? It's all a little unclear where each TOC's responsibilities and obligations lie in a situation like this!

I think a S75 claim may well be contested, but the fact that you have a Zones 1-6 Travelcard may be relevant - as it is valid on VTWC services as far as the boundary of Zone 6 (even if none of their trains stop anywhere other than at London Euston within the zones). Thus you evidently hold a contract with VTWC (and Southeastern is not the only 'supplier' for the purposes of S75, even if they are the party that took the payment, as principals in respect of the main part of the season ticket, but as agents of the TOCs on which the Travelcard is valid).

Given that the NRCoT give you the right to compensation for most delays, and that it refers to the Passenger's Charter of each TOC for details of season ticket compensation, and that the NRCoT give you the right to combine tickets but be considered to be making one journey, in my view it could be argued that failure to pay compensation is a breach of contract and hence the credit card provider is jointly and severally liable.

I definitely agree that it's a tenuous argument, however there is nothing to be lost in trying it (as the credit card provider's internal complaints procedure, and the Financial Ombudsman Service if you want to escalate the matter, are both free to use for you as the consumer). That being said, most providers will require you to have taken up the matter with the supplier (SE/VT) before making a claim with them, even if that is not what the law says. It's not worth your while arguing over this - so I would first make reasonable attempts at settlement with VTWC first before considering this (rather nuclear) option.

 

[some bloke]

You can record the call if you like

It may be best to obtain permission first.

You can ask the person and then, after starting the recording, say something like "OK I've started recording - can we just confirm that you're happy for the call to be recorded?".

In the case of a company which has a policy of recording calls, it would seem unreasonable for them to refuse.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It may be best to obtain permission first.

You can ask the person and then, after starting the recording, say something like "OK I've started recording - can we just confirm that you're happy for the call to be recorded?".

In the case of a company which has a policy of recording calls, it would seem unreasonable for them to refuse.

There is no legal obligation to do so, and the admissibility of the recording would be unlikely to be affected, but yes it may be the 'nice' thing to do. As far as I'm aware however, virtually all TOCs record at least some calls, so reps should not really care, and TBH they should expect all calls to be recorded so it makes little difference if the customer is also recording.

 

[some bloke]

There is no legal obligation to do so, and the admissibility of the recording would be unlikely to be affected, but yes it may be the 'nice' thing to do.

Obligation, admissibility and niceness may not be the only considerations.

I'm unclear what the argument would be for recording secretly.

If they refuse (which we may agree is unlikely) you can say you'll ring back so that you can ask someone else - or ask to be put through to another staff member or a manager.

Isn't the position as follows?

You may lawfully record your own contributions to a phone conversation, from mouth to microphone, without any special restriction on use.

You may lawfully record both or all parties' contributions to a phone conversation you take part in. However, legal problems may arise from playing the recording to someone else. You might want to use the recording in a way which, if you didn't have permission, would breach the employee's privacy (such as playing it to someone so that you can ask their advice).

In cases which may at some stage involve court, obtaining permission to record may turn out to be useful - including for the court's decisions about compensation.

This article makes some points:
http://acitylawfirm.com/recorded-conversations/

 

[yorkie]

Interesting stuff, but let's not have any further discussion on the matter of the rights of an individual to record a telephone conversation in this thread please

@KingJ can you let us know what they say next please? Thanks.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would advise the OP to contact VTWC again, quoteing that the NRCoT states that they are liable for the compensation for the whole journey.

Where is this stated in the NRCoT?

 

[yorkie]

NRCoT does not use the term "whole journey"; it does refer to "journey", and we know that you can combine two or more tickets for one journey.

Virgin Trains' Passenger Charter states:

If your train is delayed or cancelled, or a delay or cancellation of a Virgin train causes a delay to your overall journey, you may be entitled to claim compensation....

 

[KingJ]

Thank you all again for your advice on this matter.

Without further prompting from me beyond what i've mentioned already, Virgin came back to me late this afternoon using the original delay repay case reference with the following;

Thank you for your email and apologies for the late response. Looking into you claim, we have compensated you for the tickets valid form Coventry to London Euston. As you stated that you missed your connection service from London to Tonbridge, we will require a scan or photo of the valid season ticket. I would be grateful if you email this over so that we can look into the overall delay length of your journey.

Curiously, I did provide a screenshot of my season ticket and journey history (due to it being a smartcard rather than a paper ticket) to Virgin previously with this case on the 6th of August - so i'm not sure if the previously provided pictures have been lost by them or if something else is at play. Either way, i've replied back again with the relevant information they requested.

So far, this reply doesn't seem to indicate any intent to deny the claim on the basis of combining tickets so fingers crossed! Failing that though, i'll try my luck quoting the relevant bits of the NRCoT and Virgin Train's Passenger Charter that @cactustwirly and @yorkie have pulled out.

 

[KingJ]

Finally I think i've managed to get there!

For the past few days i've been going around in circles with them - they've asked for proof of my journey and ticket, i've provided it to them yet again and so on. Finally, I queried if they had actually received the proof I was sending and they confirmed I had - but that it wasn't sufficient...

The attachments we have received were details of the key smart card tickets, whereas we require an original photo or scan of the season ticket which states the valid from and until dates, ticket price, ticket number and station code.

Now this was going to be a bit of a problem. As my season is on a Smart Card it's physically impossible for me to take a photo or scan of the card showing the information they requested - it's only available online and indeed the evidence i'd sent through to them several times was a screenshot of my account on Southeastern's site - showing my smart card number, the ticket, to/from dates, to/from stations, cost etc, along with the journey history showing my delayed journey on Southeastern after I had made it on Virgin. I replied back again explaining that it was impossible for me to provide the proof in the form they asked for and re-iterating that the relevant information they requested was in the screenshots instead, but I didn't have my hopes set too high.

Finally though, today I received the generic 'payout' response, detailing the compensation/time thresholds and the calculation of season ticket delay repayments. Therefore, i've now ended up with what I think to be the missing payment - £4760 (season) / 464 (annual one way journeys) X 50% (30-59 minute rate) = £5.13. Phew!

That took a bit more effort than I was expecting, but claiming for a delay using combined tickets and a smart card season ticket does understandably complicate the process!

Thanks again to everyone for their advice here - hopefully this will help anyone else needing to claim in this scenario in the future too.