EM2
Established Member
Read it again. It is *not* the woman whose bag has been stolen who has bought the tickets. The original woman buys the tickets after she has stolen the card.
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Picking tickets up without the card you booked them with
- Thread starter martyn29
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Read it again. It is *not* the woman whose bag has been stolen who has bought the tickets. The original woman buys the tickets after she has stolen the card.
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The quote only refers to the Fast Ticket machines. It doesn't say the customer can't collect them from the ticket office.
It seems quite reasonable to assume the card requirement is a technical limitation of the machines.
EM2
Established Member
Your average crim will not keep a card for longer than absolutely necessary. They won't risk using it in a machine in case it gets flagged up (and they may not know how the machine itself works - I find many passengers don't). They dump a card as soon as they can (usually within couple of hours), because as soon as it's cancelled i) it's useless and ii) if you use it, there's a strong chance of being caught.
Is there really less chance of being caught going into a booking office and asking a clerk to print off the tickets, giving name and address of the person they stole the tickets from, than using it in a machine? I find that incredibly hard to believe. If someone was so desperate not to be caught that they didn't use a machine, they'd hardly go to a ticket window and ask for the tickets, surely?
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Well that's exactly what I was told. If you do not have the card then you ask at the ticket office, you give the name & address, then they print the tickets. I can't believe GNER/NXEC have been doing it wrong all these years and helping fraudsters, and the wonderful EMT owned by Brian Souter are doing everyone a favour by charging people £109!
Credit card fraud is a major problem in this country. apparently. so the credit card companies say anyway. As such, credit card companies insist on stringent security measures, such as not supplying goods to people other than the named cardholder. Companies are required to adhere to a number of policies. Delivering tickets by mail to someones door is considered acceptable, as the mail service, rightly or wrongly, is legally considered as being secure. You may not consider it so in your bizarro world where all sorts of weird examples seem to happen. But in normal situations, delivery to door is acceptable. If someone then steals the tickets, the TOC is not going to be held liable, as they have taken all reasonable precautions.
Where somebody wishes to collect tickets purchased with a card, the TOCs decide to take the reasonable precaution, clearly stated in their terms and conditions, that the card must be presented to collect the tickets. If someone has subsequently stolen the card, again, that is not the TOCs problem, they are only required to stick to accepted guidelines and policy, policies which will have been insisted upon by the credit card companies themselves. If someone is unable to present the card, then the TOC is quite right to follow accepted policy, and NOT issue the ticket.
NXEC may have a different policy on this. If that is the case, then I would they are in the wrong, and I would hope that somebody will bring them into line!
EM2
Established Member
Why not? If the ticket clerk asks your security questions of name and address, he issues the tickets when he gets the right answer.
It's only later when the true cardholder finds that some tickets were bought online with her card, that they'll know, by which time the criminal has made their journey and is unlikely to be found, unless they start going through CCTV at the ticket office.
But if you use a card in a machine, a lot of people will assume it'll be read and authorised. They'll think it has much more chance of it being swallowed in the machine
A machine might not work for any number of reasons. Then the thief is stuck. If the thief goes to a window, all they have to do is hope that some idiot is working there who doesnt care about the law, and security, and the risk of credit card fraud, who will just hand them over the ticket!
I think not.
I have asked a member of staff at BHM who says that it "happens all the time", and XC and VT staff both advise customers to go to the ticket office, give the name & address used for the booking and the ticket will then be printed.
So far it's NXEC, XC and VT versus EMT.
Hmm...
just because someone is in a minority, does not mean that they are wrong. quite often the opposite in fact.
theblackwatch
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Is this rule written down anywhere?
Wow, unlike Yorkie to get worked up over tickets. Whether or not someone believes a condition of ticket purchase fair is wholly irrelevant. They have ticked that they have read, understand and agree to abide by these conditions to get the ticket. It's that simple.
Luckily, the law disagrees with you, fairness very much does matter. Have you heard of the 'unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations'?.
Burying something in the terms and conditions does not neceassarily mean that it is legal and enforceable.
OK - we can agree what is the current state of affairs (well, perhaps not agree, but...). However, can anyone suggest a secure system for the scenario I posed earlier: a family member is seriously ill in hospital, and I want my son back quickly from Winchester; he, as a student, has no money. I have access to the internet, but cannot get to a station to arrange a "person travelling without a ticket" whatever that system is. How do i arrange for someone 200 miles away to pick up the ticket i have paid for legitimately on my card, within minutes of my having paid? (and if the answer is "it can't be done" then it jolly well should be possible!)
John @ home
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Agreed, there is a system. But, on the only occasion I have known this to be used, only open single tickets could be issued, railcard discounts were not available even though a valid railcard was held and was in the possession of the traveller, and the standard £10 administration fee was charged in addition to the open single fare.
Quite a good method of determining the responsiveness of an industry to its customers is to measure how the industry deals with a customer in distress. The formal procedures of the railway industry deal astonishingly badly with a customer in distress.
The most recent such case I had to deal with involved a single mother travelling on an Advance ticket with her one-year-old child from a station south of the Thames to the north of England. She was delayed by weekend closure of the Thameslink route and closure of the Victoria line and therefore missed the train from London to the north. The Thameslink closure was known and advertised in advance. The Victoria line was scheduled to operate that weekend but was closed without significant notice.
The passenger asked for help from a member of staff on the next train from the London terminus to her northern destination. She was sent to the travel centre to have her ticket "validated" for travel on that train. After queueing for a long time, her request was curtly dismissed by the assistant at the travel centre, without any enquiry as to why the connection had been missed. She was told to buy a new ticket, but did not have enough money to do so.
In distress, she sought help by phone. She was advised to queue again, but this time to insist on speaking to a manager. But by this time the next hourly train had been missed. She eventually explained the position to the duty supervisor, who appeared sympathetic and understanding and asked her to wait while options were explored. After forty more minutes, she was told that she had left her suburban station ten minutes too late for the revised advertised connection, so the TOC could not and would not help. She was again told to buy a new ticket. A third train was missed. At no point was she told about the emergency remote ticketing facility. It is not surprising that further distress followed.
Fortunately, two friends who had been expecting to travel with the mother and baby were following (lack of) progress from the train on which all were originally reserved. Even more fortunately, that train had a guard with more than 25 years railway service and many useful contacts, who was able to telephone the TOC's duty manager at the London terminus who arranged for the guard of the fourth hourly train to be advised of the position and for mother and baby to be accommodated in the First Class lounge until the train was prepared for boarding. The baby reached home only half an hour after his normal bedtime.
It was the railways' over-complex systems which were the real cause of these events. Even in retrospect, it has not been possible for me to calculate with precision how many minutes prior to the departure from the London terminus the passenger should have arrived at the suburban station. Every day, many experienced railway staff do excellent work to keep the passengers moving. Too often they do it despite the systems.
John
313103
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Why is everyone getting hot under the collar ?
Yorkie seems to have forgotten that we dont have British rail anymore, that means that each indivdual train company sets in place its own secruity and anti fraud protection prcedures.
If its a requirent to show prove of purchase, then that is what one has to do. SIMPLES!
Yorkie seems to have forgotten that we dont have British rail anymore, that means that each indivdual train company sets in place its own secruity and anti fraud protection prcedures.
If its a requirent to show prove of purchase, then that is what one has to do. SIMPLES!
But it isn't, it's a rule that you must take the payment card - no other proof of purchase is acceptable.
I think that there is some discussion over whether blindly following intransigent rules is actually a good thing to do. When 'fraud prevention measures' do more to inconvenience the genuine customers than to actually prevent fraud, shouldn't this be questioned?
Yes, it does say that you must take the payment card, but unexpected shït happens - cards can be lost, forgotten, damaged, stolen etc. I don't agree that, in all these circumstances, the only answer should be 'buy a new ticket', regardless of what the 'rules' say.
LondonLarry
Member
Not at all - the TOC is liable for any fraud committed on a card. NXEC suffered a fair bit of fraud through their Telesales a few years ago...
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I agree 313103, if you choose to buy a product from a company, you have to accept their terms of sale. If you don't like it, buy your tickets elsewhere!
blacknight
Member
Rules are for the guidenance of wisemen & the obiedence of fools, in this case would have thought cooom sense could have been be applied can person collecting provide information as proof of link to person who's name is on card, bring her parents along would have counted as proof.
In this case its not as if she is purchasing direct from you as any creditcard fraud as already been commited in the transaction of ordering tickets online & cardholder could take issue with issue with that company if any anti fraud measures have been breeched in that transaction.
Maybe you feel little uncomfortable with your actions on the day & would like little moral support from forum to justify your decision on the day.
At the end of the day you made your decision & just have to get on with it
Yes, SILK is what I meant. But silky smooth it aint. I have used it on one occasion, and it required me to drive into Leeds (I could, but not all can), and, even when I was there, it took over an hour to put through (I think the staff at King's Cross had different priorities from mine
) and it meant my son had to catch the last train from London, arriving in Leeds after all sensible people had gone to bed.As a parent, I am frequently asked to buy tickets to gigs for poverty-stricken offspring. Most recently I bought some for a concert in Manchester. Within seconds i had received a pdf file with all the tickets contained in it. I could then email them on to the various recipients. I have also had a case where the tickets were sent out to me (Yorkshire) arriving the same day as the gig (Brighton). Ring up booking agency and, swiftly and easily, I identified myself, gave the booking ref, and was given a second ref for my son to be able to pick up replacement tickets at the door. If the entertainment business can do this (I would guess slightly more risky and expensive than rail) why can't the TOCs? If the "anti-fraud" regulations are, as has been stated, devolved to them, they can change them.
... I have this issue day in day out :roll:
... the TOC I work for request's to see the card that payment was made with ... and they are following the T&C's of the web operator that the tickets were purchased from.
... when the passenger purchases tickets it clearly states in the T&C's that the payment card must be brought along to collect the tickets ... if the customer chooses not to read these - then that is their choice - they have however accepted them.
... customers do have a choice to have tickets posted to their home address or the address of the traveller.
... with regards to SILK ... the purpose of this is for 'stranded' passengers ... and yes, they are sold as single tickets with the admin fee.
... the TOC I work for request's to see the card that payment was made with ... and they are following the T&C's of the web operator that the tickets were purchased from.
... when the passenger purchases tickets it clearly states in the T&C's that the payment card must be brought along to collect the tickets ... if the customer chooses not to read these - then that is their choice - they have however accepted them.
... customers do have a choice to have tickets posted to their home address or the address of the traveller.
... with regards to SILK ... the purpose of this is for 'stranded' passengers ... and yes, they are sold as single tickets with the admin fee.
Of course, being as you have internet access, you could do a transfer to his account. I'm with HSBC and can do this with instant access to the funds to my wives account at NatWest. Imagine that, solving a problem you have by yourself. This used to be common, but nowadays people seem to demand other people, such as TOCs, sort it out for them.
Yes, but, in common with most financial institutions, transfers from my bank to his have to go through the clearing system, so have an overnight delay. I can also appreciate that, in the days before the internet, if i had had a similar problem i would have had to find another way. But we do have the internet, we do have secure transactions, and good customer service would be to make use of the new technology to be flexible in a way that leaves the customer satisfied. The TOCs are, supposedly, providing a service to the customer, for which the customer is paying. If a problem has been identified (by the customer, for whom the service is supposedly designed) in that service, and the TOCs are not addressing it despite there being several effective and safe ways to do so, then I would suggest it is the TOCs problem. And saying "Not my problem, guv" is unlikely to contribute towards TOCs retaining franchises.
To be honest, at the end of the day, any petty term that add red tape and make it more difficult for passengers to book tickets and travel is simply going to deter passengers from using trains, which is bad for the railways.
theblackwatch
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As is someone turning up at the station to find their ticket has been fraudulently collected by someone else!
Who is responsible for the terms and conditions? When I buy online, I have to go through a tedious procedure to have my card verified by quotng the security num,ber on the back (this is apparently to prove I have the card in my possession), and then the card issuer themselves require me to enter a password to prove that I am the cardholder! At some point security questions and dates of rithe can also come into it, given this, it would be nice to think that having gone through all this, if I did forget to take the actual card along to the TVM, the booking reference alone would be sufficient.
I am flying next week, on a domestic flight, and I have an e-ticket. There is no requirement for me to take any particular credit or debit card to the airport, whether I paid for the flight, or whether it was my sister, my mother or my employer! On the other hand, I do need picture ID....!
I am flying next week, on a domestic flight, and I have an e-ticket. There is no requirement for me to take any particular credit or debit card to the airport, whether I paid for the flight, or whether it was my sister, my mother or my employer! On the other hand, I do need picture ID....!
theblackwatch
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You also need to remember to print out your e-ticket - faile to do so with Ryanair and you will be charged £40 for it to be reissued!
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