Manchester - Wolverhampton via CrossCountry Trains

[Gingerella]

Hi there,

I really need someone to clear up the mystery surrounding exactly when CrossCountry Train's off-peak return tickets are valid.

I want to get a train from Manchester Piccadilly to Wolverhampton on Friday 16th October after 5pm.

Trainline.com, NationalRail.co.uk and CrossCountry Trains' website itself offers me off-peak return tickets for several journeys after 5pm for £16.55 with a YP railcard. Infact, all 3 websites allow me to buy these off-peak returns well before 5pm.

Now, I am assuming that because the websites have offered me these tickets, that they are valid on the service. However, this assumption seems to be the mistake I made last time when the following things happened:

• I bought an off-peak return ticket at Manchester Piccadilly train station using a FastTicket machine

• The train I tried to board was the exact same train that offered off-peak return tickets for the exact same price. So surely, the ticket I ended up buying should have been exactly the same as the one I intended to buy in advance

• The driver of said train then announced that off-peak return tickets were NOT valid on this service (I believe it was around 4.30pm). So I didn't board for fear of having to pay an excess or fine

• I went to the ticket desk to ask whether my off-peak return ticket would be valid on the next train (around 5pm) which the lady informed me it would be and even showed me her screen saying so

• I attempted to board the second train, first checking with the driver if my ticket was valid, to which his reply was no, that off-peak returns were only valid after a specific time (but I do not 100% recall the time he said, maybe 6 or 6.30pm) but would allow me to travel, anyway.

This is all bearing in mind that I obviously hadn't seen the relevant news and so didn't know that CrossCountry Trains were a completely different train company to Virgin. I was easily confused as Virgin used to (or still do) run a CrossCountry service.

The CrossCountry Trains website does not seem to specify exactly when their off-peak times are. I know all day Saturday and Sunday are off-peak but I want to know what time I can travel on Friday's with an off-peak return ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Wolverhampton.

Sorry for such a long post and thanks in advance!

 

[LondonLarry]

An Off Peak Return, from Manchester - Wolverhampton, carries a 2V validity code. It is valid for travel after 0930 Monday - Friday, no other restrictions (e.g. in the evening) apply.

Can you remember which train you boarded when you heard the annoucement? It's possible that Off Peak tickets for other journeys were not valid on that service.

 

[mumrar]

The announcement may have been made about Off Peak Day tickets. Cross Country operate an afternoon peak for these ticket types and to that end the restriction is that Off Peak Day tickets may not be used to commence a journey with XC between 15.30 and 18.15. You can board an XC service between these times if your journey commenced on another operators service or commenced before the afternoon peak time

 

[LondonLarry]

The OP was on a Period Return and is not affected by the evening peak restriction. However, if someone is travelling on an Off Peak Day Return between:

Manchester - Stockport or Macclesfield
Priced by Northern, no evening restriction applies.
Manchester - Stoke on Trent or Stafford
Priced by Cross Country, an evening restriction applies.

Anyone making a journey to Wolverhampton or beyond, can only buy an Off Peak (period) Return as there is no Off Peak Day Return. Customers can therefore travel on any evening peak service.

The Train Manager should really qualify his statement by saying that "Off Peak Day tickets are not valid on this train for journeys to Stoke on Trent or Stafford."

 

[Failed Unit]

The announcement may have been made about Off Peak Day tickets. Cross Country operate an afternoon peak for these ticket types and to that end the restriction is that Off Peak Day tickets may not be used to commence a journey with XC between 15.30 and 18.15. You can board an XC service between these times if your journey commenced on another operators service or commenced before the afternoon peak time

It gets more confusing however. You can do Derby - Sheffield for example on XC no problem as it is priced by EMT. However you can also travel between Nottingham and Derby on EMT and get fined as it is priced by XC (not sure if this could ever happen).

Whatever the current ticketing is complicated and the fact different TOC's have different rules makes it even worse, espcailly when you can do the whole journey on a TOC that doens't price the tickets. The one I hate the most is the fact that on some routes off-peak tickets are in fact valid all day such as Leeds to Edinburgh. I mention this one again because it is priced by National Express, but most direct journeys are done by XC which in normal circumstances would not allow you to use off-peak tickets before 0930. I wonder how many people have paid more than they needed to because they are not certain and don't want to be fined.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The OP was on a Period Return and is not affected by the evening peak restriction. However, if someone is travelling on an Off Peak Day Return between:

Manchester - Stockport or Macclesfield
Priced by Northern, no evening restriction applies.
Manchester - Stoke on Trent or Stafford
Priced by Cross Country, an evening restriction applies.

Anyone making a journey to Wolverhampton or beyond, can only buy an Off Peak (period) Return as there is no Off Peak Day Return. Customers can therefore travel on any evening peak service.

The Train Manager should really qualify his statement by saying that "Off Peak Day tickets are not valid on this train for journeys to Stoke on Trent or Stafford."

You often here Scotrail making such a qualification in the evening on the 1700 Glasgow - Edinburgh, saying that off-peak tickets are only valid to Croy. At least everyone else is clear.

 

[Gingerella]

An Off Peak Return, from Manchester - Wolverhampton, carries a 2V validity code. It is valid for travel after 0930 Monday - Friday, no other restrictions (e.g. in the evening) apply.

Can you remember which train you boarded when you heard the annoucement? It's possible that Off Peak tickets for other journeys were not valid on that service.

No, sorry.

The OP was on a Period Return and is not affected by the evening peak restriction. However, if someone is travelling on an Off Peak Day Return between:

Manchester - Stockport or Macclesfield
Priced by Northern, no evening restriction applies.
Manchester - Stoke on Trent or Stafford
Priced by Cross Country, an evening restriction applies.

Anyone making a journey to Wolverhampton or beyond, can only buy an Off Peak (period) Return as there is no Off Peak Day Return. Customers can therefore travel on any evening peak service.

The Train Manager should really qualify his statement by saying that "Off Peak Day tickets are not valid on this train for journeys to Stoke on Trent or Stafford."

I actually still have the ticket in my YP railcard holder and it says Ticket Type: OFF_PEAK R, and my RTN journey was valid for 1 month. I'm assuming that means my ticket was an Off-Peak Return not an Off-Peak Day Return. So my ticket really should have been valid, even though he said it wasn't? Did he just get confused? Too lazy to look? Maybe it was a misunderstanding, but on whose behalf, I really don't know.

I just cannot fathom why, if I had an Off-Peak Return ticket and if Off-Peak on XC is anytime after 9.30am (are there exceptions to this?), my ticket would not have been valid?!

I just don't want to buy a ticket and get to the station for them to tell me it's not bloody valid, again. Websites/companies/whoever should not allow you to buy a ticket, and make a seat reservation (!) for a service for which that ticket isn't valid.

 

[Failed Unit]

I just cannot fathom why, if I had an Off-Peak Return ticket and if Off-Peak on XC is anytime after 9.30am (are there exceptions to this?), my ticket would not have been valid?!

Leeds - Edinburgh (or any journey North of Peterborough priced by national express east coast) is valid on ANY train, it is called an off peak. I understand the anytime only exists as a "fine" for people who don't buy before travelling. It is who prices your ticket not the service you are on that determines when it is valid.

I just don't want to buy a ticket and get to the station for them to tell me it's not bloody valid, again. Websites/companies/whoever should not allow you to buy a ticket, and make a seat reservation (!) for a service for which that ticket isn't valid.

If you buy it online print off your journey details and show it to the gaurd. This saved me getting excessed on HS1 the other day. The gripper didn't know that Market Rasen - Ashford AP tickets can be used on High Speed without paying the £4.40 supplement, but as the train was on my journey details he didn't charge me.

 

[nedchester]

The OP was on a Period Return and is not affected by the evening peak restriction. However, if someone is travelling on an Off Peak Day Return between:

Manchester - Stockport or Macclesfield
Priced by Northern, no evening restriction applies.
Manchester - Stoke on Trent or Stafford
Priced by Cross Country, an evening restriction applies.

Anyone making a journey to Wolverhampton or beyond, can only buy an Off Peak (period) Return as there is no Off Peak Day Return. Customers can therefore travel on any evening peak service.

The Train Manager should really qualify his statement by saying that "Off Peak Day tickets are not valid on this train for journeys to Stoke on Trent or Stafford."

No wonder the travelling public are confused? Simplification? I think not!

 

[Gingerella]

Leeds - Edinburgh (or any journey North of Peterborough priced by national express east coast) is valid on ANY train, it is called an off peak. I understand the anytime only exists as a "fine" for people who don't buy before travelling. It is who prices your ticket not the service you are on that determines when it is valid.

Ah I see, so I need to find out who prices my ticket then?

If you buy it online print off your journey details and show it to the gaurd. This saved me getting excessed on HS1 the other day. The gripper didn't know that Market Rasen - Ashford AP tickets can be used on High Speed without paying the £4.40 supplement, but as the train was on my journey details he didn't charge me.

Good tip! I shall do that. I am hoping I won't need it, though. It's crazy how much I worry, and hate worrying so much, about having the correct train tickets.

I might ask the driver again before getting on the train or I might even call XC Customer Service and pay a shed load to speak to someone in India just to give myself peace of mind. *sigh*

Thanks a lot for all the replies.

 

[Greenback]

I wouldn't waste money calling any customer services, the fact that the ticket has been sold by a website should be enough, and whenever I have bought online, if a service is not permitted, it hasn't been avalable. You might have to explain this of course, so a print might be handy as said above.

It's just yet another example of the horrendous mess that is the UK rail ticketing 'system'. It has become so complicated, especailly with XC, that staff can be genuinely confused. Simplification certainly hasn't helped, now you can get such tickets as off peak returns, off peak day returns and super off peak returns, all with their own set of restrictions!

 

[yorkie]

• The driver of said train then announced that off-peak return tickets were NOT valid on this service (I believe it was around 4.30pm). So I didn't board for fear of having to pay an excess or fine

That would be the guard. No such blanket rule exists, so such announcements should not be made. Some Off Peak tickets are valid on that train, but some are valid. It depends on the validity code.

Trains do not restrict certain tickets - it's the other way round; the tickets restrict the use of certain trains.

I went to the ticket desk to ask whether my off-peak return ticket would be valid on the next train (around 5pm) which the lady informed me it would be and even showed me her screen saying so

There are no evening restrictions on Off Peak Return tickets apart from certain journeys to/from the London area I believe, but each ticket has a validity code that can be checked. The lady was correct, it was valid.

• I attempted to board the second train, first checking with the driver if my ticket was valid, to which his reply was no, that off-peak returns were only valid after a specific time (but I do not 100% recall the time he said, maybe 6 or 6.30pm) but would allow me to travel, anyway.

Drivers wouldn't know, and wouldn't have the means to check. As for asking the guard, the guard cannot know all the ticket validities off the top of his/her head, he/she may know that particular validity of your ticket if it is a common journey on his/her route, otherwise they'd need to check their Avantix machine for the validity code.

This is all bearing in mind that I obviously hadn't seen the relevant news and so didn't know that CrossCountry Trains were a completely different train company to Virgin. I was easily confused as Virgin used to (or still do) run a CrossCountry service.

What matters is the conditions of the ticket, not who runs the trains. It only matters who runs the train if the conditions of the ticket limit the journey to a company or companies.

The CrossCountry Trains website does not seem to specify exactly when their off-peak times are.

It varies by route, but they can only decide what their off peak times are on routes where they set the fare. They have no say in what Virgin deem peak or off peak.

I know all day Saturday and Sunday are off-peak but I want to know what time I can travel on Friday's with an off-peak return ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Wolverhampton.!

Restriction: 2V

OUTWARD & RETURN JOURNEYS
By any train except those
scheduled to depart before
0930.

If anyone says that this particular ticket is not valid at any time after 0930, simply refuse to pay any excess. Give your name and address if they demand it (although I think you should be able to refuse but sadly byelaws are utterly biased against the customer even when the customer is right so it may be unwise to refuse, mind you I'd refuse if it was me) and if they send a bill, refuse to pay it and seek advice here. If they tried it on, we'd make sure they regret it, I promise you that.