Poll: What are your suggestions for the future redundant HST sets?

[Journeyman]

Personally I have a fairly consistent set of requirements regardless of my reason for travelling. Comfy seat, pleanty of legroom, reliable, I have a leaning towards natural ventilation, although I'm not against air conditioning in all cases. EPB's and 1st class in an HST have some of these in common !

I often end up on the same 3 carriage 144's for my weekend leisure trips as I use for my daily commute. I don't hate them in one context and love them in the other - I appreciate them for what they are - reasonably comfortable for what they do.

Well, yeah, I have preferences too, but fifteen years ago, I spent a lot of time travelling on Thumpers because they were Thumpers, not because I had any pressing need to go to Uckfield! It was for the thrash and the unique experience, and if they hadn't been there, I wouldn't have travelled, therefore I recognise my opinion is very different to that of an annual season ticket holder.

 

[Rail Blues]

My earliest memory of travelling on an HST is when I was about four years old, which makes it 1978 - so back then they were very new. I remember the orange and blue seats, but not a lot else! However, to a little kid, they looked amazing, and there's no doubt most other people at the time thought so too. They were the fastest diesel trains in the world, and the comfort and quality was an enormous jump over what was previously on offer. They were technically and commercially an absolutely huge success, and I admire them greatly for that - it's probably the most successful single type of train this country has ever seen, and has left an amazing legacy.

But yes. They're old, reliability is dropping sharply, and bodywork corrosion is a big, big problem. They're not PRM-TSI compliant without expensive and difficult work, they're not particularly fuel-efficient, and the Mark 3 is not the amazing bubble of luxury a lot of people make out. It's time for them to retire gracefully.

Pretty much every single word of this

 

[JonasB]

Whoa!!!! Careful you'll be burnt as a heretic expressing dangerous views like that. It will be like 'The Crucible' but with more cagoules.

Probably, especially since I'm a foreigner that has the audacity to criticize the greatest railway engineering achievement since Brunel's time. They were great, but the world has moved on and 1970's technology is not that impressive anymore. Having to open the door window to be able to alight is hardly a "user friendly" design. And toilets without retention tanks? Is there any western European country that still allows discharge untreated human waste on the tracks? A class 800 is a great improvement, and being a bi mode it improves the air quality a lot in larger electrified stations.

Before I'm declared persona non grata here I would like to state that the railway enthusiast community could benefit from being a bit less conservative (not just in the UK, it is a problem common in other countries as well). New trains are usually an improvement from a passenger point of view. And in the end, I think the passengers opinions are more important than the opinions of railfans. British TOCs running HSTs today, is like if British Airways would still be flying Tridents, 1-11s and VC10s.

But I do hope that a couple of HSTs are preserved as they are an iconic train, an important part of British railway history and has been the backbone of British rail travel for so long. Are there any HSTs without new owners yet?

 

[yorksrob]

Well, yeah, I have preferences too, but fifteen years ago, I spent a lot of time travelling on Thumpers because they were Thumpers, not because I had any pressing need to go to Uckfield! It was for the thrash and the unique experience, and if they hadn't been there, I wouldn't have travelled, therefore I recognise my opinion is very different to that of an annual season ticket holder.

Well, I grew up in a town served by thumpers long before they were endangered, and I liked them because they presented a perfectly comfortable and pleasent travelling environment (obviously before the Connex era decline in tidyness took hold).

 

[yorksrob]

Care to take a look at the figures for the HSTs Scotrail are acquiring?

They're still aquiring them. And in the case of XC, they must be used their foibles by now from their existing fleet.

 

[iantherev]

It is almost like a pattern keeps emerging. Implacable hostility morphs into rhuemey eyed nostalgia over the course of 30 years.

For so called 'enthusiasts' it would be nice if they ditched the rise tinted specs once in a while and actually showed a bit of bloody enthusiasm rather than carping on about how things were so much better in an imaginary version of the past.

Where’s the like button? Although some would argue this isn’t the place for rail enthusiasm.

 

[yorksrob]

My earliest memory of travelling on an HST is when I was about four years old, which makes it 1978 - so back then they were very new. I remember the orange and blue seats, but not a lot else! However, to a little kid, they looked amazing, and there's no doubt most other people at the time thought so too. They were the fastest diesel trains in the world, and the comfort and quality was an enormous jump over what was previously on offer. They were technically and commercially an absolutely huge success, and I admire them greatly for that - it's probably the most successful single type of train this country has ever seen, and has left an amazing legacy.

But yes. They're old, reliability is dropping sharply, and bodywork corrosion is a big, big problem. They're not PRM-TSI compliant without expensive and difficult work, they're not particularly fuel-efficient, and the Mark 3 is not the amazing bubble of luxury a lot of people make out. It's time for them to retire gracefully.

A seat in a mk 3 is a lot better than a vestibule in a voyager, which is precisely why spare sets should be supplementing that TOC's fleet.

And frankly the 1st class carriges are far more comfortable than any modern equivalent.

 

[yorksrob]

It is almost like a pattern keeps emerging. Implacable hostility morphs into rhuemey eyed nostalgia over the course of 30 years.

For so called 'enthusiasts' it would be nice if they ditched the rise tinted specs once in a while and actually showed a bit of bloody enthusiasm rather than carping on about how things were so much better in an imaginary version of the past.

I don't have to "imagine" older rolling stock being better when I have experienced it myself.

And as for enthusiasm, show me a weekend when I don't have to run a gauntlet of overcrowding, never ending engineering works and/or strikes and I might actually be able to drum some up.

 

[ANWP Tom]

Speaking with the route TOC customer service manager there is a plan for atleast some sets to become parcel sets. Aimed at station retailers and Amazon markets. Have had to consider where to unload them if they come off in the long term access strategies.

Long shot but S&C does spring to mind with a few sets. The exLNER sets are the ones open to speculation although there is whispers on a few more for XC as an interim down the road.

One area I think is being missed is the possible use of powercars with FOCs, 75mph freight comes to mind, especially with block semi fixed rakes with reversals on route maybe.

LSL are apparently taking 1 or 2 for the charter market and does make me wonder if it will drive WCRC to do the same and if there was the cash, willing and right marketing a Pullman hst could be an interesting venture.

**Note a good mix of industry mentions, speculation and a bit of logical fantasy but all within the remit of the post I think

 

[43096]

Speaking with the route TOC customer service manager there is a plan for atleast some sets to become parcel sets. Aimed at station retailers and Amazon markets. Have had to consider where to unload them if they come off in the long term access strategies.

Long shot but S&C does spring to mind with a few sets. The exLNER sets are the ones open to speculation although there is whispers on a few more for XC as an interim down the road.

One area I think is being missed is the possible use of powercars with FOCs, 75mph freight comes to mind, especially with block semi fixed rakes with reversals on route maybe.

LSL are apparently taking 1 or 2 for the charter market and does make me wonder if it will drive WCRC to do the same and if there was the cash, willing and right marketing a Pullman hst could be an interesting venture.

**Note a good mix of industry mentions, speculation and a bit of logical fantasy but all within the remit of the post I think

Logical fantasy? Kylie Minogue is a logical fantasy - still ain't going to happen!

 

[ANWP Tom]

Logical fantasy? Kylie Minogue is a logical fantasy - still ain't going to happen!

Suppose Kylie is like the HSTs, getting on a bit but still plenty of life left in them

 

[Mikey C]

To me the replacements for the slam door stock on the Southern and LTS lines by Desiros and Electrostars were a great improvement, whereas the replacement of say the loco hauled Mk2s and 3s on the WCML by the Pendolinos were more of a mixed blessing...

 

[Pete_uk]

Turn each carriage into accomodation for homeless people

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me the replacements for the slam door stock on the Southern and LTS lines by Desiros and Electrostars were a great improvement, whereas the replacement of say the loco hauled Mk2s and 3s on the WCML by the Pendolinos were more of a mixed blessing...

I think it's hard to say that the whole package wasn't an improvement, even if you don't like Pendolinos. To me it certainly was.

 

[Mikey C]

I think it's hard to say that the whole package wasn't an improvement, even if you don't like Pendolinos. To me it certainly was.

To me the tiny windows were a major negative, especially with the number of seats facing a wall as a result. The extra speed was the positive, especially on the longer runs, I'm not sure it made any significant difference really to New Street to London runs, for example.

 

[sjpowermac]

It is almost like a pattern keeps emerging. Implacable hostility morphs into rhuemey eyed nostalgia over the course of 30 years.

For so called 'enthusiasts' it would be nice if they ditched the rise tinted specs once in a while and actually showed a bit of bloody enthusiasm rather than carping on about how things were so much better in an imaginary version of the past.

I think my post was mostly factual and in response to the earlier question about use of Deltics on Transpennine services. I don’t believe I was ‘carping on’ about anything. As an enthusiast I still can’t stand the HSTs, from a more balanced perspective I believe they saved the InterCity network. I wouldn’t like to think what would have been left of many routes had we continued with the old locomotives and stock. I always promote railways and rail travel in general, despite the recent problems.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Okay, I love HST sets, and I think they are amazing sets to be on, and to travel on. The slam doors bring back so many memories, and putting your head out of the window when coming into a station will never be forgot. It is disapointing that 2020 regs force the doors to be replaced, but the fact that some sets are staying with GWR, XC, and ScotRail...

BUT

These trains are 40 years old... They aren't good enough now for modern standards on mass, and while they are amazing at a passengers view compared to an IEP Azuma, they are deteriorating quickly. You will always hear the argument that oh First Class is so much better on a HST than on an IEP, and yeah your right, but with time to settle, the IEPs will get better, and in 40 years time, maybe you'll be crying then a new hover train takes over . In all seriousness though, now is a good time to let go, when most of the fleet is in good shape, and a quater of the fleet is getting an as new refurbishment. In reality, to answer the question, perhaps a few extra trailers will find their way into the Scotrail sets to have a fleet of 2x5 and 2x6 trains, and maybe an extra one in the GWR sets to make them all 2x5, but realistically, the rest will go to scrap... No need to preserve them yet, they will be running for another 10 years!

Enjoy the proper slam door sets, while you can!

 

[ainsworth74]

It is almost like a pattern keeps emerging. Implacable hostility morphs into rhuemey eyed nostalgia over the course of 30 years.

Tell you what in thirty odd years when the IETs are due for replacement if some version of this Forum or its content has survived I'll be digging out posts containing the vitriol about them as hard evidence that the now widely loved IETs were utterly detested and so their replacements should be given the same benefit.

 

[Kneedown]

@tbtc - they can’t be any worse than a 153 accelerating! Wasn’t a serious suggestion though.

Actually, acceleration is on a par with a Sprinter. They lag behind a bit when starting off, but soon overtake.
It's stopping where you lose the time as the brake takes longer to apply and release, so positioning on a shortish platform is carried out very carefully.

 

[tbtc]

A seat in a mk 3 is a lot better than a vestibule in a voyager, which is precisely why spare sets should be supplementing that TOC's fleet

Sounds fabulous! (if only they were nippy enough to actually meet Voyager paths then people might take this idea seriously... I'm sure this was brought up before though?)

Logical fantasy? Kylie Minogue is a logical fantasy - still ain't going to happen!

Suppose Kylie is like the HSTs, getting on a bit but still plenty of life left in them

Kylie Minogue is a great example of the future for the HSTs.

When you are a pop star in your 20s you can perform a high temp stage show, you can accommodate half a dozen costume changes during the evening on stage, you can do the dance moves and the high kicks and the hectic schedules (performing till late at night, sleeping on the tour bus as it drives to the next city then being alert and chatty on breakfast radio a few hours later).

When you are in your 50s (as she now is), you can't keep up with the energy of the modern day equivalent of what you once were (e.g. X-factor "stars"), so you adapt your routine, you look after your voice better (requiring longer between gigs), you slow down.

The problem with the HSTs is that they aren't needed for the jobs they once did (due to electrification, due to 800/801/802s, due to 220/221/222s), so their further life depends on routes being found where they can fill a niche.

If you were Kylie Minogue (roughly ten years older than HSTs), you could decide that your future lies in touring the greatest hits and give up on releasing any new music. Or maybe you decide that the gigs are taking their toll on you and you'd rather just release music. Maybe you stop singing and hope that a few Instagram posts a week will generate sufficient publicity to keep radio stations playing old songs (or people streaming you). You adapt, you find something you are still good at, you don't try to compete with the nineteen year olds doing the hyperactive schedule that you once coped with.

If someone on here can come up with a route that the HSTs are suited for then I'd listen, an unelectrified route where top speed is more important than acceleration, so one with few intermediate stops. But some of the suggestions on here are a little wide of the mark (e.g. the S&C with maybe fifteen intermediate stops, top line speed of 75mph due to freight, average end-to-end speed of around forty miles per hour - around three hours to travel just over a hundred miles?) or rely on a bit too much Magic Thinking.

Kylie can adapt. HSTs can't.

 

[Mikey C]

Tell you what in thirty odd years when the IETs are due for replacement if some version of this Forum or its content has survived I'll be digging out posts containing the vitriol about them as hard evidence that the now widely loved IETs were utterly detested and so their replacements should be given the same benefit.

If a future operator was to rip the seats out and replace them with some better ones, a lot of the moans would go straight away.

 

[ainsworth74]

If a future operator was to rip the seats out and replace them with some better ones, a lot of the moans would go straight away.

And I bet they'd be replaced by people moaning that the old seats were better than the new ones!

Bit like the IC70s as found in the HSTs originally now I think about it...

 

[nat67]

The 125 group has spare engines and cooler groups

They have at least 10 spare VP's doing nothing, waiting for 43053 to appear I hope.

 

[yorksrob]

Okay, I love HST sets, and I think they are amazing sets to be on, and to travel on. The slam doors bring back so many memories, and putting your head out of the window when coming into a station will never be forgot. It is disapointing that 2020 regs force the doors to be replaced, but the fact that some sets are staying with GWR, XC, and ScotRail...

BUT

These trains are 40 years old... They aren't good enough now for modern standards on mass, and while they are amazing at a passengers view compared to an IEP Azuma, they are deteriorating quickly. You will always hear the argument that oh First Class is so much better on a HST than on an IEP, and yeah your right, but with time to settle, the IEPs will get better, and in 40 years time, maybe you'll be crying then a new hover train takes over . In all seriousness though, now is a good time to let go, when most of the fleet is in good shape, and a quater of the fleet is getting an as new refurbishment. In reality, to answer the question, perhaps a few extra trailers will find their way into the Scotrail sets to have a fleet of 2x5 and 2x6 trains, and maybe an extra one in the GWR sets to make them all 2x5, but realistically, the rest will go to scrap... No need to preserve them yet, they will be running for another 10 years!

Enjoy the proper slam door sets, while you can!

Short of a full refurbishment to properly furnished standards, by what mechanism exactly, is first class on a modern unit going to "get better" ?

 

[AndrewE]

They have at least 10 spare VP's doing nothing, waiting for 43053 to appear I hope.

VPs... Valenta (Paxman)?

 

[43096]

They have at least 10 spare VP's doing nothing, waiting for 43053 to appear I hope.

Errrrrrr. No.
VP = VP185. Engine in use with EMT (and XPT whilst we're about it). 125 Group have none of them.
Valenta = RP200L in Paxman's type description (also known when first designed as Y3J, or "Mark 3 Ventura"). 125 Group have some in store awaiting the day....

VP185 is NOT Valenta. Two completely different engine types, separated by around 20-25 years. The only real commonality is they were both manufactured by Paxman.

 

[F Great Eastern]

It is almost like a pattern keeps emerging. Implacable hostility morphs into rhuemey eyed nostalgia over the course of 30 years.

Didn't work for the pacers though did it?!

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds fabulous! (if only they were nippy enough to actually meet Voyager paths then people might take this idea seriously... I'm sure this was brought up before though?)

Well, its terribly lucky that the paths used by the existing HST diagrams are suitable, since none of the others could possibly be adjusted to fit them. And the same for the previous set of HST paths before the timetable change (last year I think it was) which also must have been the only possible times in which HST's can run.

How do the drivers manage not to break the XC HST diagrams, since they were clearly handed down to Moses on tablets of stone ?

 

[bramling]

I think it's hard to say that the whole package wasn't an improvement, even if you don't like Pendolinos. To me it certainly was.

I have to say I quite like the Pendolinos. Sure they have some negative features, which to be fair is a lot to do with the operator’s interior spec rather than fundamental design flaws. However I agree that the overall package is a good one - fast, frequent and reliable, and with one massive benefit namely that the 11-car versions are the longest trains in Britain bar Eurostar, so good for capacity too. It really was a missed opportunity not to lengthen the whole fleet.

But, and there is a but, the journey experience does depend on where one ends up sitting, far more than comparable trains. There are some pretty rubbish seat positions on these trains for various reasons, although to be fair this comes from someone who enjoys window gazing so perhaps it’s not quite such an issue for most. The first class in particular is very nice indeed IMO.

On balance I think I’d take a Pendolino over a MK3 on the WCML if for no other reasons than because they’re faster and longer.

 

[sprinterguy]

Didn't work for the pacers though did it?!

You do realise that there is in fact a Pacer Preservation Society, right?

Plus there are a surprising number of us, primarily those who have grown up in the north of England over the past thirty years, who can get sentimental over Pacers, even when we can readily admit that they're not fit to meet expectations of 21st century commuting.