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What is you views on the companys operations in scotland? Are people happy with it? is the reputation better in Glasgow than it is in Aberdeen or Stirling? Do you think they are gonna be here in the future? Or is there a simple unilateral feeling that they are failing across scotland?
Is it a case people use them to travel because they’ve no other choice?
What is you views on the companys operations in scotland? Are people happy with it? is the reputation better in Glasgow than it is in Aberdeen or Stirling? Do you think they are gonna be here in the future? Or is there a simple unilateral feeling that they are failing across scotland?
Is it a case people use them to travel because they’ve no other choice?
I can only really comment on what I know from East Scotland. I certainly feel they were always on a hiding to nothing in East Lothian and the Borders giving that they were serving small localised towns, villages/communities. There were no big towns to serve and get good loadings throughout the day and Lothian (Buses) had Edinburgh and even Musselburgh well served.
The First fleet always looked tired compared to LB's and in the days when there was an X81 FB to Gorebridge it was generally a bone shaker, that struggled up Gilmerton Road, not to mention the hills past Eskbank.
I don't know much about West Lothian/Falkirk/Stirling areas but I get the impression things are much the same.
Also having observed comments and pictures of other first areas on here (Glasgow and First Kernow (yes, I'm aware that Cornwall is not Scotland)) it seems that the feeling of people is the same, namely poor service, reliability issues and ancient, shabby vechicles.
I don't know anything about other First operations in Scotland e.g. Aberdeen but I'm sure there are others that could make better judgements.
Aberdeens going through lots of changes at the moment and they're only going to get bigger next year so it's hard to really comment. But....
The oldest vehicles in the fleet are currently being replaced meaning soon the whole fleet will nearly be fully Euro 4 compliant or better. At the turn of the year there was reliability issues due to poor timing in the August 2017 changes, this was resolved in the April 2018 changes. Following contract changes a few months back there's been a slight driver shortage (slightly inflated by the press). As such reliability has been quite poor, although it's hoped this will be sorted fairly soon.
In 2017 the whole fleet of B10BLEs (the most reliable and liked type in the fleet) got interior re-trims (see spoiler) and they started repaints, those repaints were stopped with only 7 of them being done to allow the coach hire side of the company to repaint a number of coaches. Repaints are now unlikely to resume as the B10BLEs have just started to gradually be replaced.
Fleet condition is generally good. The only buses in the fleet with "scabby" interiors are a few of the older B7RLEs. In the years coming Aberdeen will need to look at new vehicles for the 1/2, this will present some real issues as it's been proven before that even normal full size 2 axle deckers are too small for the service. In to 2019 the city will most likely see a massive reform in services, this is in part thanks to AWPR (Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route) but also down to travel patterns changing. These changes will probably see the whole network shuffled about. Most notably are services to Bridge Of Don, Cove and Dyce.
On the topic of new vehicles, Aberdeen should in theory get 10 new buses per year to keep the fleet age at a good level, but in the years 2013 - 2015 alone we got 60 new buses (enough to cover 6 years), as such getting more new buses in the 2016 - 2018 period would be over investment. Although i suspect in to 2019/20 we may see a number of new vehicles come in, possible replacing the Artics.
Also as mentioned elsewhere the demonstrator Hydrogen powered Wright Streetdeck arrived at King Street Depot today for a 2 weeks trial, this will most likely be pending a further order of either 10 or 20 more Hydrogen vehicles (split between First and Stagecoach).
I don't see much point in this topic to be fair other than typical bias attacking FirstGroup but here's a fairly basic scoop of Aberdeen.
Here is a interior photo taken from 62151 last week showing the very smart seat retrim.
Also having observed comments and pictures of other first areas on here (Glasgow and First Kernow (yes, I'm aware that Cornwall is not Scotland)) it seems that the feeling of people is the same, namely poor service, reliability issues and ancient, shabby vehicles.
Interesting you bring Kernow up, they've had quite a bit of investment with quite a number of new vehicles if i'm not mistaken?. There are some Tridents there though which should have been scrapped years ago.
I think first in Scotland are done . Think Everywhere must be short of drivers as putting pressure on drivers to work ot. The Likes of customer service , They move everything south for a central system and don't know routes , fares enquiries . Giving out wrong info or just fobbing off customers through twitter .
Interesting you bring Kernow up, they've had quite a bit of investment with quite a number of new vehicles if i'm not mistaken?. There are some Tridents there though which should have been scrapped years ago.
Kernow have had new vehicles, and it seems the fleet is getting better, but yes the Tridents should have gone years ago, there was another picture posted, which I can't find now annoyingly, which showed a really scruffy first bus, don't think it was one of the Tridents either, it looked like a patchwork quilt whatever it was.
The B10BLEs are still reliable, compare that to a Wright StreetLite and you'd take the Volvo every day. Despite the age of them, as long as they're still going, no point sending them to the scrapyard just yet. Scotland East / Midland Bluebird got rid of theirs and the ALX300s due to DDA coming in and it was a big mistake made, they should have kept some, carry out the required modifications and had them going for a while longer.
I think First will stick around in some form but I can't see them with Livingston for much longer. Lothian are trying to push them out, many drivers are choosing to switch sides and we all know what First did before with other Scotland East depots, get rid of them and let Lothian have them, as well as Borders going to West Coast Motors. Might as well get rid of the depot (which would effectively be the end of Scotland East as the rest are Midland Bluebird) and concentrate on what is left.
The B10BLEs are still reliable, compare that to a Wright StreetLite and you'd take the Volvo every day. Despite the age of them, as long as they're still going, no point sending them to the scrapyard just yet. Scotland East / Midland Bluebird got rid of theirs and the ALX300s due to DDA coming in and it was a big mistake made, they should have kept some, carry out the required modifications and had them going for a while longer.
I think First will stick around in some form but I can't see them with Livingston for much longer. Lothian are trying to push them out, many drivers are choosing to switch sides and we all know what First did before with other Scotland East depots, get rid of them and let Lothian have them, as well as Borders going to West Coast Motors. Might as well get rid of the depot (which would effectively be the end of Scotland East as the rest are Midland Bluebird) and concentrate on what is left.
I fear that livi is most likely more profitable than Falkirk or Stirling can muster, falkirk and stirling have long became family commuter towns, particularly in stirling, where the most recent service proposals look rather weak and sparse, glasgow on the other hand has a substantial service yet buses are pretty quiet compared to edinburgh, of course having 3 big wicks, albeit useless ones(McGills, First, Stagecoach) fighting for supremacy around glasgow just strips each of them from money and consequently newer, nicer vehicles.
Of course drivers in livi, glasgow etc would likely be happier also if buses were renewed more often with a nicer, ore comfortable drivers seats, cab air-con etc
Small things can add up
Of course Id never say the B10s arent good sturdy machines, but political pressure means buses with really old polluting engines are no longer viable, there are modern equivalents like Volvos B8RLE or Scanias N250UD single deck chassis(I’m sure the euro6 scania single is still built to order with enviro 300 body work of course)...yet, first and stagecoach scavenging for the highest fuel efficiencys possible leads them to buy light weights.
And if you look from a passenger point of view though most would rather travel on something new rather than one thats 15 yrs old.
Yes, buying lightweight vehicles was not a good choice for some applications. Look at the 38 Stirling to Edinburgh route, they thought it was a great idea to buy StreetLites and they just break down most of the time because they were never designed for that sort of work, they are better for local routes, First should have ordered new Volvos for that route.
What are they doing with the reliable B7RLEs that used to do that work? Most of them getting sent up to Aberdeen, the 38 is now halved in frequency and half of the new timetable doesn't go to Edinburgh any more, some peak short workings now being worked out of Livingston where some passengers might get caught out with them not giving change but the others do.
Volvo have really went downhill, they ain't what they were 10 years ago so i'd disagree.
Perhaps a Scania or Mercedes model would be better. ADL really need to bring out a medium distance low floor bus. Yes there's the Panther LE but that's nearly 15 metres long. They need something like the Enviro300 but built better and perhaps with a Cummins ISL engine instead of the ISB.
Yes, buying lightweight vehicles was not a good choice for some applications. Look at the 38 Stirling to Edinburgh route, they thought it was a great idea to buy StreetLites and they just break down most of the time because they were never designed for that sort of work, they are better for local routes, First should have ordered new Volvos for that route.
What are they doing with the reliable B7RLEs that used to do that work? Most of them getting sent up to Aberdeen, the 38 is now halved in frequency and half of the new timetable doesn't go to Edinburgh any more, some peak short workings now being worked out of Livingston where some passengers might get caught out with them not giving change but the others do.
Volvo have really went downhill, they ain't what they were 10 years ago so i'd disagree.
Perhaps a Scania or Mercedes model would be better. ADL really need to bring out a medium distance low floor bus. Yes there's the Panther LE but that's nearly 15 metres long. They need something like the Enviro300 but built better and perhaps with a Cummins ISL engine instead of the ISB.
The only thing coming across as half decent and built with a good length and purpose is wrights 13.2m eclipse that lothians ECBs have, scania/300s are only built to 12m spec as I’m aware.
The Panther LE’s are a good concept low floor etc, but there is no buggy bay that i’m aware of on stagecoaches x55 ones and dare I say I think potential passengers with buggies should get consideration, the wheel chair ramp is a collapsible folding contraption from what looks like the same one found on old transbus tridents, these ramps are stored in the luggage compartment half way along the exterior of the bus, all this eats into operational time, not good for an industry that faces road cogestion on a daily basis, not to mention once you load a wheel chair they still have to be racheted down in place!
The LE’s have a 350hp engine with 1400nm yet the bus weighs around 14t given there tri axle config as you say.
Compare that to a scania N280UD chassis that you can spec underneath a 400 mmc body, these are down on power at 280 horses but torque remains the same at 1400nm yet the deckers weight approx 2t less, the decker would likely outperform the LE coach on many fronts including practicality.
I cant comment on ISL engines as ive never driven e500’s but I think the ISB and volvo 4-cylinders are perfect for city ops.
The only thing coming across as half decent and built with a good length and purpose is wrights 13.2m eclipse that lothians ECBs have, scania/300s are only built to 12m spec as I’m aware.
The Panther LE’s are a good concept low floor etc, but there is no buggy bay that i’m aware of on stagecoaches x55 ones and dare I say I think potential passengers with buggies should get consideration, the wheel chair ramp is a collapsible folding contraption from what looks like the same one found on old transbus tridents, these ramps are stored in the luggage compartment half way along the exterior of the bus, all this eats into operational time, not good for an industry that faces road cogestion on a daily basis, not to mention once you load a wheel chair they still have to be racheted down in place!
The LE’s have a 350hp engine with 1400nm yet the bus weighs around 14t given there tri axle config as you say.
Compare that to a scania N280UD chassis that you can spec underneath a 400 mmc body, these are down on power at 280 horses but torque remains the same at 1400nm yet the deckers weight approx 2t less, the decker would likely outperform the LE coach on many fronts including practicality.
I cant comment on ISL engines as ive never driven e500’s but I think the ISB and volvo 4-cylinders are perfect for city ops.
Scania E300s are about the slowest things on planet earth. The folding ramps you're talking of were popular (mostly with Stagecoach) around the turn of the century. I agree they're not exactly ideals. In many applications the Panther LE is a bit of a white elephant.
Regarding the N280UD argument, i see your point and you're probably right, but aerodynamics and Gearbox set up also play a big part, not to mention the Scania engine is only 5 cylinder.
The Cummins ISB is perfect for city applications (excluding when with a Voith Gearbox). Vehicles with the ISBe6 coupled to a ZF Ecolife can really shift. The 4-cylinder units on Volvos are far too small. Many B5TLs are having issues with engines "blowing up" and many have had full engine rebuilds and replacements.
With the Cummins ISL i was more talking about a vehicle for rural and medium distance applications rather than city work, specifications really vary but they can go up to just under 2,000NM with 380BHP.
Scania E300s are about the slowest things on planet earth. The folding ramps you're talking of were popular (mostly with Stagecoach) around the turn of the century. I agree they're not exactly ideals. In many applications the Panther LE is a bit of a white elephant.
Regarding the N280UD argument, i see your point and you're probably right, but aerodynamics and Gearbox set up also play a big part, not to mention the Scania engine is only 5 cylinder.
The Cummins ISB is perfect for city applications (excluding when with a Voith Gearbox). Vehicles with the ISBe6 coupled to a ZF Ecolife can really shift. The 4-cylinder units on Volvos are far too small. Many B5TLs are having issues with engines "blowing up" and many have had full engine rebuilds and replacements.
With the Cummins ISL i was more talking about a vehicle for rural and medium distance applications rather than city work, specifications really vary but they can go up to just under 2,000NM with 380BHP.
Both Voith, ZF and Allison can have the transmission software altered to provide different characteristics like better acceleration, shift points etc, the gearbox simply interfaces with the engine ECU to control acceleration ergo affecting fuel economy, it annoys me alot of buses dont get a kickdown switch nowadays when you need it most!
The voith equiped 400s are low carbon certified owing to there sluggish feel at euro6, theyve likely had to reduce the acceleration management to do that, which the ZF ones havent, ADL at the moment doesnt offer Stop/Start with the ZF trans either even though ZF have stated through other media that it is capable of working with stop/start capable engines.
I’ve only driven ZF equiped B9TL’s and Ecomat B7TL’s.
Stagecoaches voith buses Ive never liked
I feel the fleet at Livi is quite modern now . Glasgow has by far the worst condition , do Aberdeen have any Tridents ? Love to see condition of theirs compared to Glasgows .
I feel the streetlites are too small for a busy route like 267 . Too many singles on routes 2 and 3 .
I feel the fleet at Livi is quite modern now . Glasgow has by far the worst condition , do Aberdeen have any Tridents ? Love to see condition of theirs compared to Glasgows .
I feel the streetlites are too small for a busy route like 267 . Too many singles on routes 2 and 3 .
The Aberdeen Tridents were all withdrawn by May 2017. Only vehicles in the service fleet that are Pre-Euro 4 currently are the 15 B7LAs, 4 B7RLEs and 10 B10BLEs. The latter of which is now slowly being culled.
No doubt if Livingston ever gets sold, all these newer vehicles certainly will be staying at First, probably to Glasgow as they'll be needing them due to the traffic regulation conditions that might be happening.
You think they'll just give those E400MMCs away? No chance.
Not that I am pushing that they will end up shutting down there, I just feel that Lothian are going to keep on pushing until First has enough and chucks it like they did with the other depots, they have enough problems on their plate, if a good deal can be made it's going, regardless of what they've done over the last few years.
Those E400MMC were paid for via the Scottish Government, there might have no choice but to sell them with the depot. IF it were to shut then Glasgow is the only place.
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