Arriva Rail North DOO

[Carlisle]

A bad company is a bad company. Does a woman managing at a city financial institution experiencing blatant sexism make it less bad than a cleaner in another financial firm experiencing the same problem? If you haven't got the brains to understand this then that's your problem, not mine.

If those type of shenanigans were actually taking place at the TOC you described as a ‘truly awful company’ then I apologise and fully support your analogy, however you post gave no indication of that, merely suggesting that in your opinion, life was much more pleasant working for some TOCs than others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Primary driver is increased revenue protection - on board staff checking and selling more tickets.

So in that case, the compromise is surely a fully trained and mandatory guard but doors done by the driver, isn't it?

Are Northern proposing that?

Would the Union accept it? They have on Greater Anglia.

 

[Bromley boy]

Primary driver is increased revenue protection - on board staff checking and selling more tickets. Alternative would be to have an AFC and a guard which would obviously cost more.

I can’t help wondering whether that objective could have been achieved, without years of angst, by simply moving to driver open guard close (or similar).

It’s difficult not to see it as at least partially politically motivated from the DfT’s side.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can’t help wondering whether that objective could have been achieved, without years of angst, by simply moving to driver open guard close (or similar).

Interestingly, the unions blocked driver open, guard close on the Class 175s in the 1990s, as they felt it was a step towards DOO. The units had to be modified to allow guard release.

But yes, as I've said before, I believe driver open, guard close should be implemented across the non-DOO network with the only exception being stations where manual local door has to be used. Which is only really back to the days before door locking, TBH.

 

[driver_m]

If those type of shenanigans were actually taking place at the TOC you described as a ‘truly awful company’ then I apologise and fully support your analogy, however you post gave no indication of that, merely suggesting that in your opinion, life was much more pleasant working for some TOCs than others.

I'll give you an example. Driver has a SPAD on his first day out on his own at a TOC. You're the person in charge of him overall. Do you

A. Work out why, check the fundamentals of whats gone wrong, retrain and ask why he was sent out ready, when he clearly wasn't.
B. Put it down as a one off and hope it doesn't happen again after filling out a bit of paperwork.
C. Sack him

If you answered anything other than A, then you aren't doing your job properly, if you answered C, you've also throwing good money down the drain, trash any goodwill with current staff and bring in a climate of fear, like that in Japan. Which works well until someone panics. (C was carried out)

Another one. You go on a course to improve Comms skills. You go to one TOCs course, where you're fed and watered and feel that the course was worthwhile. Or you go a FOCs course. Where one of the managers openly states to you that you aren't getting any food because ."we don't want these getting used to it" .Talking about your fellow professionals as if theyre zoo animals. Work out who these two different places are. I'll give you a clue on the FOC. They also have a parent company with Northern as now.

I used to think the same way about footballers or politicians.. But I don't envy them one bit. Ad after what happened at Crewe, or Jo Cox we should all be far more tolerant of anyones complaint. Regardless of earnings or power.

 

[northwichcat]

So in that case, the compromise is surely a fully trained and mandatory guard but doors done by the driver, isn't it?

Are Northern proposing that?

Would the Union accept it? They have on Greater Anglia.

I feel if Arriva had proposed 100% DOO with roaming ticket inspectors and no booked member of second staff on every service, that the unions would have hailed an offer of 50% DCO with a second member of staff booked to be on every service as a minor victory. However, it seems Arriva's starting position was close to the DfT requirement meaning they gave themselves very little room to negotiate so the RMT won't be happy with anything within the terms of the franchise agreement.

 

[driver_m]

Interestingly, the unions blocked driver open, guard close on the Class 175s in the 1990s, as they felt it was a step towards DOO. The units had to be modified to allow guard release.

But yes, as I've said before, I believe driver open, guard close should be implemented across the non-DOO network with the only exception being stations where manual local door has to be used. Which is only really back to the days before door locking, TBH.

Someone who gets it. The WC and XC method. Best of both worlds .No DO. Its a no brainer why our customer satisfaction with the staff itself is very high. The TM does the SC stuff and still interacts with the passengers.

 

[northwichcat]

Someone who gets it. The WC and XC method. Best of both worlds .No DO. Its a no brainer why our customer satisfaction with the staff itself is very high. The TM does the SC stuff and still interacts with the passengers.

Driver open and guard close has more advantages on Intercity than local services. Some Northern service call at two stations in the time an Intercity service can spend stopped at one intermediate station.

 

[Confused52]

Trains not being cancelled or delayed because there isn’t a guard.

It seems to me that you have the actual reason there CN75.

I am only a passenger and don’t have a dog in this fight. However I have read the RSSB publication Safety of Driver Controlled Operation (DCO) from June this year. It follows earlier studies which give support to DCO/DOO operation over a number of years. It is clear from the statistics and evidence presented that better radio communications, even if not always with the right box in the first instance, has changed the situation if a second person is on the train. It is equally clear that whilst DOO is not as safe as DCO it is six times less risky than cancelling a train and causing congestion on other services.

Further it is also clear that these results are only valid for urban and suburban routes and not rural and that operators are expected to take that into account.

So the horror stories about rural services without a second member of staff should be a misplaced concern. Also the percentage reduction expected should be mainly on denser urban services. Given those things the arguments from the RMT that safety is being compromised do not seem to hold water and look like pure self-interest.

It appears that the DfT are trying to implement a strategy that is designed to increase safety and reliability by allowing DOO when a second member of staff is not available. That would indeed seem to be a proper task for government.

I have not seen any evidence to disprove what the RSSB say. All I have heard is political rhetoric based on nothing. What I haven’t seen that is real evidence to support the RMT’s position that appears to be based on facts. Where can I find proper unbiased evidence?

 

[LowLevel]

Driver open and guard close has more advantages on Intercity than local services. Some Northern service call at two stations in the time an Intercity service can spend stopped at one intermediate station.

If you hire the right guards and take sensible steps like fitting auto announcers it's quite manageable. Northern are about the most restrictive TOC there are for door procedures and that makes it practically impossible to get everything done. I've been working urban paytrains for years. We used to have ATEs to help us do tickets and they were cost reduced out of the business. We still just about manage. TVMs and mobile ticketing were the next big thing. The TVMs are usually broken or vandalised and mobile ticketing is often abused, only being used when the inspector is seen entering the carriage. And thus, we all still plod along working what are effectively still paytrains stopping every 2 or 3 minutes.

My average on a morning peak train during functional time including station stops is completing a ticket sale every 28 seconds or so.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Driver open and guard close has more advantages on Intercity than local services. Some Northern service call at two stations in the time an Intercity service can spend stopped at one intermediate station.

Driver open, guard close, is a option that I think Northern will explore, Then again I have lost count of the number of times I have had to give six on the buzzer because the train wasn't on the platform correctly. But let us just explore the option in more detail.
The main advantages of this system is not at 7am on a Saturday morning when the trains are empty. It is late Friday-Saturday nights when every train is full of people wanting to lick the windows when they have got off. It's a very dangerous time indeed to have someone go under unnoticed, and I know it worries a lot of drivers, and so it should.
To have this flexibility though means you have to keep the safety critical role, so why the hell are we having to stare at 30 days of strikes to get to the point that is so obvious to anyone who has ever worked a train. It is only those who have only ever sat on a train as a passenger who can't see it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also not helped by ticket machines being an utter faff to use. The UI really should be designed so that "tap destination, tap adult/child, tap ticket type, tap contactless card on device, retrieve ticket" takes no more than about 10-15 seconds for any station served directly by that train and other key connecting destinations. Yet every generation of ticket machine since APTIS/SPORTIS seems to be visibly slower than that was.

And if you have to get a pen out to tap as the UI is too small, that's a failure straight away.

 

[LowLevel]

It's also not helped by ticket machines being an utter faff to use. The UI really should be designed so that "tap destination, tap adult/child, tap ticket type, tap contactless card on device, retrieve ticket" takes no more than about 10-15 seconds for any station served directly by that train and other key connecting destinations. Yet every generation of ticket machine since APTIS/SPORTIS seems to be visibly slower than that was.

And if you have to get a pen out to tap as the UI is too small, that's a failure straight away.

Envoy is as you say. Very fast. You put the headcode in, it gives you the stops and you tap the ones you want. It warns you if your train is restricted for the ticket you pick. There's a more detailed screen for things like long distance tickets, rovers or tickets for another day and we can print Ticket On Departure transactions in case of TVM failure.

If you're adept at using it transactions take seconds.

 

[driver_m]

Driver open and guard close has more advantages on Intercity than local services. Some Northern service call at two stations in the time an Intercity service can spend stopped at one intermediate station.

I'll raise you a Lichfield, Tamworth . Or wolves, sandwell, new st, international and coventry. We're not constantly at 125 you know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Envoy is as you say. Very fast. You put the headcode in, it gives you the stops and you tap the ones you want. It warns you if your train is restricted for the ticket you pick. There's a more detailed screen for things like long distance tickets, rovers or tickets for another day and we can print Ticket On Departure transactions in case of TVM failure.

If you're adept at using it transactions take seconds.

Sounds good.

 

[Robertj21a]

Driver open, guard close, is a option that I think Northern will explore, Then again I have lost count of the number of times I have had to give six on the buzzer because the train wasn't on the platform correctly. But let us just explore the option in more detail.
The main advantages of this system is not at 7am on a Saturday morning when the trains are empty. It is late Friday-Saturday nights when every train is full of people wanting to lick the windows when they have got off. It's a very dangerous time indeed to have someone go under unnoticed, and I know it worries a lot of drivers, and so it should.
To have this flexibility though means you have to keep the safety critical role, so why the hell are we having to stare at 30 days of strikes to get to the point that is so obvious to anyone who has ever worked a train. It is only those who have only ever sat on a train as a passenger who can't see it.

As has been said very many times, the passengers don't give a toss over who opens/closes doors - it makes all of the disputes sound ridiculously childish and yet it's still a term in common usage. If the RMT had spent more time outlining the safety issues affecting the PTI, rather than going on about FatCats, foreign ownership, Tories etc etc, then the public might have been more supportive. As it is, they blame the union for continually messing up their travel plans.

 

[Bromley boy]

Driver open and guard close has more advantages on Intercity than local services. Some Northern service call at two stations in the time an Intercity service can spend stopped at one intermediate station.

If it’s saving the guard (say) 30 secs per stop, surely it’s more beneficial on local services calling at many stations?

 

[Tomnick]

Trains not being cancelled or delayed because there isn’t a guard.

It seems to me that you have the actual reason there CN75.

I'm not (at all) convinced. The number of trains cancelled for the lack of a guard should be miniscule. Far more trains have been cancelled because of the industrial action over the last couple of years than would have been cancelled in decades if not centuries otherwise. The DfT knew that industrial action would be inevitable - they, and the RSSB, considered the likely extent and cost of such action when evaluation various options for implementation*. If that was their main aim, it's been rather self-defeating.

* - all of which ultimately move towards a default position of the driver being the only member of staff on the train, with the "always planned to have a second member of staff" strategy clearly shown to be a short-term measure to avoid compulsory redundancies.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

As has been said very many times, the passengers don't give a toss over who opens/closes doors - it makes all of the disputes sound ridiculously childish and yet it's still a term in common usage. If the RMT had spent more time outlining the safety issues affecting the PTI, rather than going on about FatCats, foreign ownership, Tories etc etc, then the public might have been more supportive. As it is, they blame the union for continually messing up their travel plans.

LOL. Oh please. The facts were spelt out from the outset, but people like yourself no doubt chose to believe the government backed, government sponsored, government paid for RSSB.
We have got to the point now where people are seeing the 'Fatcats' like the ex CEO of Carrilion who waltzes into a top job with HS2. People are seeing that their fare increases are propping up cheap fares in Europe, People are seeing through the Tory lies and their endless assaults on the abilty of disabled people to travel when they wish.
Well done to the RMT for highlighting it all.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm not (at all) convinced. The number of trains cancelled for the lack of a guard should be miniscule. Far more trains have been cancelled because of the industrial action over the last couple of years than would have been cancelled in decades if not centuries otherwise. The DfT knew that industrial action would be inevitable - they, and the RSSB, considered the likely extent and cost of such action when evaluation various options for implementation*. If that was their main aim, it's been rather self-defeating.

* - all of which ultimately move towards a default position of the driver being the only member of staff on the train, with the "always planned to have a second member of staff" strategy clearly shown to be a short-term measure to avoid compulsory redundancies.

I'm not sure if your comments just relate to Arriva or are a broad brush comment about the DfT/DOO. If it's a general observation I'm fairly sure that Southern are still recruiting for their full time, permanent, OBS positions.

 

[northwichcat]

If it’s saving the guard (say) 30 secs per stop, surely it’s more beneficial on local services calling at many stations?

You do realise on many Northern services the only way for 30 seconds per stop to be saved is for the doors to not be opened at all and for the driver to start moving off as soon as the train has come to a complete stop! At some of the most rural stations the guard presses the door close button within a few seconds of releasing the doors, so they'll be no time saving at all by having driver open and guard closing, if the guard isn't in position when the train stops they'll be a delay in the doors closing regardless of who's opening the doors.

 

[Moonshot]

I'm not (at all) convinced. The number of trains cancelled for the lack of a guard should be miniscule. Far more trains have been cancelled because of the industrial action over the last couple of years than would have been cancelled in decades if not centuries otherwise. The DfT knew that industrial action would be inevitable - they, and the RSSB, considered the likely extent and cost of such action when evaluation various options for implementation*. If that was their main aim, it's been rather self-defeating.

* - all of which ultimately move towards a default position of the driver being the only member of staff on the train, with the "always planned to have a second member of staff" strategy clearly shown to be a short-term measure to avoid compulsory redundancies.

Its certainly a term and condition of the franchise agreement to have a second person on the train for revenue and customer service etc.

 

[Moonshot]

You do realise on many Northern services the only way for 30 seconds per stop to be saved is for the doors to not be opened at all and for the driver to start moving off as soon as the train has come to a complete stop! At some of the most rural stations the guard presses the door close button within a few seconds of releasing the doors, so they'll be no time saving at all by having driver open and guard closing, if the guard isn't in position when the train stops they'll be a delay in the doors closing regardless of who's opening the doors.

That really depends on where the guard is on the train....assuming that the unit is not fitted with door controls at every door. But in any event the current set up means that sometimes doors opened are delayed because the guard is dealing with a declined credit card or some other ticket issue.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

You do realise on many Northern services the only way for 30 seconds per stop to be saved is for the doors to not be opened at all and for the driver to start moving off as soon as the train has come to a complete stop! At some of the most rural stations the guard presses the door close button within a few seconds of releasing the doors, so they'll be no time saving at all by having driver open and guard closing, if the guard isn't in position when the train stops they'll be a delay in the doors closing regardless of who's opening the doors.

Maybe the guard after checking tickets knows nobody wants to get off, will a driver know?
Then again, I have been on Scotrail DCO services where the doors were released for just 10 seconds, Did the driver know then? or did he just not care because he was extracted from the fallout of someone with difficulty walking getting over carried?

 

[Robertj21a]

LOL. Oh please. The facts were spelt out from the outset, but people like yourself no doubt chose to believe the government backed, government sponsored, government paid for RSSB.
We have got to the point now where people are seeing the 'Fatcats' like the ex CEO of Carrilion who waltzes into a top job with HS2. People are seeing that their fare increases are propping up cheap fares in Europe, People are seeing through the Tory lies and their endless assaults on the abilty of disabled people to travel when they wish.
Well done to the RMT for highlighting it all.

Highly amusing. As I said earlier, I reckon you must be Mick Cash (or a member of his family/fan club).
You suggest that others only read/hear what they want to but ignore the fact that your 'hero' has created many of the difficulties himself, through appalling communications, irrelevant issues and living in the 1970s.
Have you ever tried taking those blinkers off ?

 

[Tomnick]

Its certainly a term and condition of the franchise agreement to have a second person on the train for revenue and customer service etc.

Is it? What happens if one isn't provided on a given train? How will this be recorded, if it is at all? Do you think that there will be a second person on the vast majority of trains?

 

[Tomnick]

I'm not sure if your comments just relate to Arriva or are a broad brush comment about the DfT/DOO. If it's a general observation I'm fairly sure that Southern are still recruiting for their full time, permanent, OBS positions.

It was a general observation, but yes, I think you're right about Southern's position. Maybe they are genuinely committed to the OBS role. Time will tell, but it's at odds with the position evidently held by McNulty, the DfT and the RSSB.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

How about considering the possibility that most delays are actually caused by passengers themselves.

Highly amusing. As I said earlier, I reckon you must be Mick Cash (or a member of his family/fan club).
You suggest that others only read/hear what they want to but ignore the fact that your 'hero' has created many of the difficulties himself, through appalling communications, irrelevant issues and living in the 1970s.
Have you ever tried taking those blinkers off ?

Again, you think Mick Cash is behind everything. He isn't. This idea of Saturday strikes was put forward by a Northern RMT branch, and it was picked up on. If Mick Cash is so crap, how come agreements with Anglia, Wales, and Scotland have been reached, Merseyrail hopefully, and as sure as apples grow on trees, Northern being such a toxic brand will have to at some point.

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe the guard after checking tickets knows nobody wants to get off, will a driver know?
Then again, I have been on Scotrail DCO services where the doors were released for just 10 seconds, Did the driver know then? or did he just not care because he was extracted from the fallout of someone with difficulty walking getting over carried?

A guard should never presume everyone will remain on the train until the destination shown on their ticket (or the first place where you can change to get a train to the destination shown.) Then there's the tickets which don't have destinations on them but a validity area like Wayfarer tickets.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

A guard should never presume everyone will remain on the train until the destination shown on their ticket (or the first place where you can change to get a train to the destination shown.) Then there's the tickets which don't have destinations on them but a validity area like Wayfarer tickets.

So explain to me how a driver will know any better.