Poll: What are your suggestions for the future redundant HST sets?

[dubscottie]

I’ve heard a rumour that GWR want to keep a few, for ‘extra’ services. Hitachi are supplying enough 800s to run the normal service but GWR want a couple of 2+8s available for events such as Boardmasters, Cardiff rugby events and Cheltenham Gold Cup, so they can provide extra capacity without having to curtail other regular services.

Highly unlikely to happen. Irish Rail investigated holding onto one or two Mk3 rakes for GAA specials etc but the cost was prohibitive.

If they were used on old fashioned "relief" services during busy times in addition to event specials then it may work out financially.

 

[sprinterguy]

Haven't Scotrail and GWR basically cherry picked the best GWR fleet?

I'm not sure regarding the trailers, but given that Scotrail are taking all of the GEC traction motor fitted power cars I'm not sure that's the case. Component commonality amongst the fleet available with Angel Trains (Though Scotrail will also have a number of power cars with "standard" traction motors to make up the required numbers) may have been a greater consideration. Similarly, while there is some degree of choice, there are only so many mark 3 vehicles of the correct type in the Angel Trains ex-GWR fleet to choose from. Scotrail haven't been at leisure to cherry pick from the whole of the GWR fleet.

GWR probably have selected their 11 short sets from "the best of the rest" of the First Group/Angel Trains offering, though.

 

[sprinterguy]

Weren't they used on that route quite often for a year or so ?

I have a vague recollection that they did make such forays across the Pennines at times in their final days.

 

[Journeyman]

And the now-beloved Class 442 was known at the time as a "plastic PIG" (the latter presumably being some kind of SR designation ) - and not in a nice way, despite the 442 basically being the Mk3 coach with most of the (passenger facing) problems solved, such as power doors, better seats and lighting and vestibule doors that don't bang back and forth.

Absolutely. I was about 14 when the 442s were introduced, and I remember my first trip on one - I thought it was amazing, an absolutely vast improvement on the previous trains, so I was utterly baffled by the raging hatred that emanated from some quarters. I'm an enthusiast, yes, but I'm also a traveller, and I understand why you can't keep old stuff running forever.

 

[Rail Blues]

Absolutely. I was about 14 when the 442s were introduced, and I remember my first trip on one - I thought it was amazing, an absolutely vast improvement on the previous trains, so I was utterly baffled by the raging hatred that emanated from some quarters. I'm an enthusiast, yes, but I'm also a traveller, and I understand why you can't keep old stuff running forever.

Ditto. Nostalgia has its place, that place is a heritage railway.

I often wonder if the folk who are advocating keeping knackered stock running into its fifth decade actually rely on it as their main means of transport to and from work and if so, would they change their tune once they started getting threatened with the sack for repeated lateness.

If as I suspect they're predominantly leisure users, then I can sort of see why they feel like they feel, to them it is sort of like having an MGBT, great to take out on a sunny weekend, but a whole different ballgame if you have to rely on it to get you to work on cold November mornings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Highly unlikely to happen. Irish Rail investigated holding onto one or two Mk3 rakes for GAA specials etc but the cost was prohibitive.

If they were used on old fashioned "relief" services during busy times in addition to event specials then it may work out financially.

There is a precedent to a near-enough-all-modern-stock TOC keeping a microfleet of old units for more capacity - the LNR 319s (and 321s before them). But EMUs are probably easier to keep going than DMUs.

 

[Journeyman]

Ditto. Nostalgia has its place, that place is a heritage railway.

I often wonder if the folk who are advocating keeping knackered stock running into its fifth decade actually rely on it as their main means of transport to and from work and if so, would they change their tune once they started getting threatened with the sack for repeated lateness.

If as I suspect they're predominantly leisure users, then I can sort of see why they feel like they feel, to them it is sort of like having an MGBT, great to take out on a sunny weekend, but a whole different ballgame if you have to rely on it to get you to work on cold November mornings.

Agreed. I've actually come across people who think that the EPBs were better than Networkers, and should have been kept! Seriously?!? The things were bloody awful. I spent quite a lot of time bouncing around on them just before they were withdrawn, as I did with other trains I loved, like Thumpers and the LU A Stock, but they all had their day, and an off-peak spin on them at weekends was different to day-in, day-out, time-critical commuting. If I had to spend a significant chunk of my time on a train getting on for fifty years old, and spend thousands a year for the privilege, I think I'd have a very good cause to be writing stinking letters to my MP on a regular basis.

 

[sjpowermac]

I have a vague recollection that they did make such forays across the Pennines at times in their final days.

From 1979 York gained an allocation of Deltics. Their availability improved slightly in those years and there were fewer ECML turns for them to cover. As a consequence they were used on ‘filling in’ turns on the York to Liverpool run. The route was also used to test Deltics ahead of runs on the final enthusiast specials in late 1981. There were never any booked diagrams. Back in those days the HSTs were almost universally despised by the enthusiast community.

 

[Journeyman]

Back in those days the HSTs were almost universally despised by the enthusiast community.

I suspect the Deltics weren't very popular when they replaced the A4s, either.

 

[43096]

Agreed. I've actually come across people who think that the EPBs were better than Networkers, and should have been kept! Seriously?!? The things were bloody awful. I spent quite a lot of time bouncing around on them just before they were withdrawn, as I did with other trains I loved, like Thumpers and the LU A Stock, but they all had their day, and an off-peak spin on them at weekends was different to day-in, day-out, time-critical commuting. If I had to spend a significant chunk of my time on a train getting on for fifty years old, and spend thousands a year for the privilege, I think I'd have a very good cause to be writing stinking letters to my MP on a regular basis.

There are still people who think a CIG or VEP was better than a Juniper / Desiro / Electrostar. They weren’t - VEPs in particular were vile things; too hot in summer and cold and draughty in winter. Their replacements gave the same sort of uplift in standards that HST had done on IC routes 25 years earlier.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I suspect the Deltics weren't very popular when they replaced the A4s, either.

If you go back far enough, there were probably people who thought that the stagecoach was a step down from riding your own horse and staying in inns along the Great North Road.

 

[Rail Blues]

There were never any booked diagrams. Back in those days the HSTs were almost universally despised by the enthusiast community

It is almost like a pattern keeps emerging. Implacable hostility morphs into rhuemey eyed nostalgia over the course of 30 years.

For so called 'enthusiasts' it would be nice if they ditched the rise tinted specs once in a while and actually showed a bit of bloody enthusiasm rather than carping on about how things were so much better in an imaginary version of the past.

 

[sjpowermac]

I suspect the Deltics weren't very popular when they replaced the A4s, either.

That’s very true, I remember my dad saying so!

 

[Journeyman]

There are still people who think a CIG or VEP was better than a Juniper / Desiro / Electrostar. They weren’t - VEPs in particular were vile things; too hot in summer and cold and draughty in winter. Their replacements gave the same sort of uplift in standards that HST had done on IC routes 25 years earlier.

A CIG in reasonably decent condition was quite nice to travel in, but they were allowed to get into very poor condition in their final years, especially the Connex ones where vandalism often went unrepaired. Agree with VEPs - they were good crowd-shifters but were otherwise pretty horrible to travel in. The 375s and 377s - at least the ones with 2+2 seating - were an absolute transformation in quality.

 

[Journeyman]

It is almost like a pattern keeps emerging. Implacable hostility morphs into rhuemey eyed nostalgia over the course of 30 years.

For so called 'enthusiasts' it would be nice if they ditched the rise tinted specs once in a while and actually showed a bit of bloody enthusiasm rather than carping on about how things were so much better in an imaginary version of the past.

I know what you mean - there's a lot of enthusiasts who seem actively hostile towards the rail industry, rather than supporting it and talking it up.

 

[UP13]

There are still people who think a CIG or VEP was better than a Juniper / Desiro / Electrostar.

I remember commuters complaining to SWT around 2004ish because they were riding slam door trains yet could see parked Desiros at Clapham Yard. Shows how out of touch some enthusiasts can be.

 

[apk55]

I think most units will be scrapped. Problem is that they were designed for one thing, that is fast running for long distances and not very good for anything else. The power cars have feeble tractive effort of 80KN (compared to for example 313KN of a class 68) so the low speed acceleration is very poor and the engine can not deliver its full power at speeds below 63MPH. Running short sets on slow speed services would not be very efficient, the engines would probably never reach half power output. Replacing the traction motors with larger versions that can deliver higher tractive effort at low speed would solve this problem but would be costly.

Another thought would be to convert some to push pull sets. Some of the power cars could be converted into "Driving Van Generator" cars by removing all the traction equipment and putting in a generator set for ETH supplies. You would also need to fit normal a normal drawbar on them and the end coach. But then you have a set that could be used with almost any locomotive, including none ETH freight locos such as class 66.

 

[43096]

I know what you mean - there's a lot of enthusiasts who seem actively hostile towards the rail industry, rather than supporting it and talking it up.

In fairness, there are plenty of others within the industry who do the same: some staff, unions etc etc. When was the last time you heard a union saying anything positive about the rail industry?

 

[Journeyman]

In fairness, there are plenty of others within the industry who do the same: some staff, unions etc etc. When was the last time you heard a union saying anything positive about the rail industry?

That's true as well - I despair over the RMT's deliberately destructive behaviour in persuit of a political goal. The lies they spout, and their willingness to use their members as pawns in a battle they can't win, absolutely infuriates me.

 

[yorksrob]

Ditto. Nostalgia has its place, that place is a heritage railway.

I often wonder if the folk who are advocating keeping knackered stock running into its fifth decade actually rely on it as their main means of transport to and from work and if so, would they change their tune once they started getting threatened with the sack for repeated lateness.

If as I suspect they're predominantly leisure users, then I can sort of see why they feel like they feel, to them it is sort of like having an MGBT, great to take out on a sunny weekend, but a whole different ballgame if you have to rely on it to get you to work on cold November mornings.

I'm not sure I see your point. It might have some merit if HST's were suffereing from poor reliability, however I've not heard anything to suggest that that is the case. Infact one of the reasons I often choose HST travel between London and Wakefield is that it has a tendancy to be more reliable than electric or 180 operated services.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed. I've actually come across people who think that the EPBs were better than Networkers, and should have been kept! Seriously?!? The things were bloody awful. I spent quite a lot of time bouncing around on them just before they were withdrawn, as I did with other trains I loved, like Thumpers and the LU A Stock, but they all had their day, and an off-peak spin on them at weekends was different to day-in, day-out, time-critical commuting. If I had to spend a significant chunk of my time on a train getting on for fifty years old, and spend thousands a year for the privilege, I think I'd have a very good cause to be writing stinking letters to my MP on a regular basis.

I'm curious how you can claim to "love" thumpers, yet loathe EPB's, given that the interior was more or less the same.

 

[Rail Blues]

I'm not sure I see your point. It might have some merit if HST's were suffereing from poor reliability, however I've not heard anything to suggest that that is the case. Infact one of the reasons I often choose HST travel between London and Wakefield is that it has a tendancy to be more reliable than electric or 180 operated services.

Care to take a look at the figures for the HSTs Scotrail are acquiring?

 

[Journeyman]

I'm curious how you can claim to "love" thumpers, yet loathe EPB's, given that the interior was more or less the same.

Because I recognise the difference between why I like them as an enthusiast, and how I'd feel if I had to commute on them every day. The Thumpers were absolutely grim, but when I was travelling on them by choice at my leisure, I didn't mind. I never had to suffer them in all weathers, for two hours a day. The EPBs were, likewise, enjoyable for short occasional trips for fun, but grim on a daily basis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because I recognise the difference between why I like them as an enthusiast, and how I'd feel if I had to commute on them every day. The Thumpers were absolutely grim, but when I was travelling on them by choice at my leisure, I didn't mind. I never had to suffer them in all weathers, for two hours a day. The EPBs were, likewise, enjoyable for short occasional trips for fun, but grim on a daily basis.

I used to love a ride down the Conwy Valley or Hope Valley on a Class 101 set - but if I was doing it every day, or in the middle of winter, I'd take a 158 or 185 any day.

 

[yorksrob]

I know what you mean - there's a lot of enthusiasts who seem actively hostile towards the rail industry, rather than supporting it and talking it up.

I used to suggest getting the train to friends and colleagues, but I've not been doing so this year. The service has been too poor.

 

[JonasB]

The HSTs were probably a great train when introduced (I don't know, I wasn't born then) but that was many years ago. And to be honest, they are old and there are better trains around. They might cost a bit more, but in my opinion, a Class 800 is a lot better than an HST.

 

[Rail Blues]

The HSTs were probably a great train when introduced (I don't know, I wasn't born then) but that was many years ago. And to be honest, they are old and there are better trains around. They might cost a bit more, but in my opinion, a Class 800 is a lot better than an HST.

Whoa!!!! Careful you'll be burnt as a heretic expressing dangerous views like that. It will be like 'The Crucible' but with more cagoules.

 

[Journeyman]

The HSTs were probably a great train when introduced (I don't know, I wasn't born then) but that was many years ago. And to be honest, they are old and there are better trains around. They might cost a bit more, but in my opinion, a Class 800 is a lot better than an HST.

My earliest memory of travelling on an HST is when I was about four years old, which makes it 1978 - so back then they were very new. I remember the orange and blue seats, but not a lot else! However, to a little kid, they looked amazing, and there's no doubt most other people at the time thought so too. They were the fastest diesel trains in the world, and the comfort and quality was an enormous jump over what was previously on offer. They were technically and commercially an absolutely huge success, and I admire them greatly for that - it's probably the most successful single type of train this country has ever seen, and has left an amazing legacy.

But yes. They're old, reliability is dropping sharply, and bodywork corrosion is a big, big problem. They're not PRM-TSI compliant without expensive and difficult work, they're not particularly fuel-efficient, and the Mark 3 is not the amazing bubble of luxury a lot of people make out. It's time for them to retire gracefully.

 

[yorksrob]

Because I recognise the difference between why I like them as an enthusiast, and how I'd feel if I had to commute on them every day. The Thumpers were absolutely grim, but when I was travelling on them by choice at my leisure, I didn't mind. I never had to suffer them in all weathers, for two hours a day. The EPBs were, likewise, enjoyable for short occasional trips for fun, but grim on a daily basis.

Personally I have a fairly consistent set of requirements regardless of my reason for travelling. Comfy seat, pleanty of legroom, reliable, I have a leaning towards natural ventilation, although I'm not against air conditioning in all cases. EPB's and 1st class in an HST have some of these in common !

I often end up on the same 3 carriage 144's for my weekend leisure trips as I use for my daily commute. I don't hate them in one context and love them in the other - I appreciate them for what they are - reasonably comfortable for what they do.

 

[tbtc]

It is almost like a pattern keeps emerging. Implacable hostility morphs into rhuemey eyed nostalgia over the course of 30 years.

For so called 'enthusiasts' it would be nice if they ditched the rise tinted specs once in a while and actually showed a bit of bloody enthusiasm rather than carping on about how things were so much better in an imaginary version of the past.

Agreed!

I think most units will be scrapped. Problem is that they were designed for one thing, that is fast running for long distances and not very good for anything else. The power cars have feeble tractive effort of 80KN (compared to for example 313KN of a class 68) so the low speed acceleration is very poor and the engine can not deliver its full power at speeds below 63MPH. Running short sets on slow speed services would not be very efficient, the engines would probably never reach half power output. Replacing the traction motors with larger versions that can deliver higher tractive effort at low speed would solve this problem but would be costly

You can provide your facts (and I'm not disagreeing with them), but the mood of this thread seems to be that if we can just believe in HSTs more then our magical thinking will allow tightly interworked national timetables to be easily ripped up just so we can keep these 1970s trains in service.

If even the HST-fanboys can't find a realistic service to keep the fleet in service (without suggesting wild new services) then I think we have to accept that they are mainly going to be doomed fairly soon (the small Scottish fleet of half-sized HSTs will probably last into the mid-2020s but is relatively small compared to the number built).

Let's have a handful preserved for charter use, so the fanboys can stick their necks out of the drop-windows by all means, but there's little place for them on the proper railway.

In fairness, there are plenty of others within the industry who do the same: some staff, unions etc etc. When was the last time you heard a union saying anything positive about the rail industry?

That's true as well - I despair over the RMT's deliberately destructive behaviour in persuit of a political goal. The lies they spout, and their willingness to use their members as pawns in a battle they can't win, absolutely infuriates me.

From all of the Union press releases and the like, you feel that passengers are an inconvenience in their battle against Foreign Fat Cats with their Bankers Bonuses etc etc.

They are happy to publish their opinions on lots of things (not directly related to the railway) but never frame arguments in terms of anything that sounds positive about rail travel (e.g. it's one thing to complain about the latest TOC proposal that they feel will put passengers' lives at risk but another to publish something showing how safe and reliable the railway is).