Arriva Rail North DOO

[PR1Berske]

No need for further ballots. Just turn up for work, swipe on. Now why aren't we?

So you can pretend to be having barbeques on rainy Sundays? :P

 

[Moonshot]

Is that the best you can do to continue the discussion? Write "Are you for real" Sounds like a teenager who has no clue how to debate.

Do you think it's fair that the significant numbers of new guards that have joined since the original ballot have had no say in this yet? Also, are you aware that the drivers accepting DOO ( for the customary extra pay ) will make the current dispute irrelevant?

 

[Overspeed110]

Do you think it's fair that the significant numbers of new guards that have joined since the original ballot have had no say in this yet? Also, are you aware that the drivers accepting DOO ( for the customary extra pay ) will make the current dispute irrelevant?

As I've explained before, the general consensus of opinion of Northern guards of who some I know and from what current Northern drivers have told me is that there is an overwhelming majority who support the RMTs action. Your opinion is very much a tiny minority, but you'll always get that in any dispute. Regarding a second vote I think it would be pointless for reasons I've said above. It would be both a waste of time and money.

I think its a very safe bet that the vast majority of drivers (and ASLEF) will not be accepting DOO.

Carry on undermining your "colleagues".

 

[virgintrain1]

Love how not one pro DOO person on here repsoned to my previous post, of course they would rather pretend these are not issues as no one actually has a proper answer.

Passengers should be blaming the DfT not union members fighting for passengers safety for goodsnes sake.

 

[Moonshot]

As I've explained before, the general consensus of opinion of Northern guards of who some I know and from what current Northern drivers have told me is that there is an overwhelming majority who support the RMTs action. Your opinion is very much a tiny minority, but you'll always get that in any dispute. Regarding a second vote I think it would be pointless for reasons I've said above. It would be both a waste of time and money.

I think its a very safe bet that the vast majority of drivers (and ASLEF) will not be accepting DOO.

Carry on undermining your "colleagues".

I'm not undermining anyone , I'm simply pointing out some facts. You clearly are not in a position to actually know what is going on in Northern mess rooms, because you don't actually work for them.

Absolutely no one's opinion matters on here as far as this dispute goes. The reality is whether you or I like it or not, trains totally controlled by the driver will be a fact in the not too distant future.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Northern aren't planning to operate any train services on the Mid-Cheshire line at all on Saturday and only plan to operate 3 replacement buses in each direction. A number of retailers and other facilities like leisure centres will definitely be short of staff unless that changes.

So if these businesses are being harmed by the strikes then presumably their owners will be beating a path to their elected representatives wanting to know why the SoS is so busy trying to avoid attempting to resolve the dispute as opposed to ensuring that the DfT demands that Northern digs its heels in to preserve the "sanctity" of the franchise agreement.

As for Moonshot saying it's all about the doors, has he swallowed the right wing media whole? He's doing his own job a disservice, and seeing as he's an East Side Guard where they'd charge their own kids full fare no Priv if they could, then I feel you should probably listen to the West Side staff on this forum instead of Lord Haw Haw over there. I already open and close doors. Do I have Driver Only? Only on ECS. Is it the best method of work? IMO Yes. Best of both worlds. Punters get looked after, revenue gets collected, I can concentrate on what's in front, not behind, and the belt and braces approach we have works well.

Based on posts made in other threads I'm pretty sure Moonshot is based at Manchester Victoria.

I do always find the inane mutterings from people who don't do the job irritating.
[snip]
I like to think I'm a good example of working practice and I do both paytrains and long distance. I've got a bit of experience as well. How I work bears little resemblance to our commentators here.

But of course such misinformation is exactly what Grayling and co want to see spread around.

Probably not wrong there. In the course of the job, I speak to plenty of their staff and they're all unanimous on one thing. The company being the worst they've ever worked for. The amount that say even FNW weren't as incompetent or as bad as these speaks volumes. And they were not good. Many of my own colleagues who worked with FNW can vouch for how bad they were in the past, as they usually use it as a way of keeping any of our moaners in check, who've never experienced a truly awful company. So make of that what you will. I wouldn't be surprised now if Northern staff now get told not to speak to other rail staff now as they are probably aware of just how low their stock is within the industry. Certainly gone rapidly downhill even from the days of Alex Haynes or whatever his name was.

Sadly the franchise never really recovered from the loss of Heidi Mottram. She wasn't a traditional railway person but was a good leader as she understood how to delegate effectively giving her more time to communicate directly with front-line staff.

Passengers making alternative plans for Saturdays rather than risk strikes; passengers making alternative plans for Sundays rather than risk Northern cutting every other train. I wonder what the long term consequences are for this franchise, for the RMT, for the payments to/from the DfT, and for investment across Northern England, as a result of weekend travel becoming such an uncertain gamble.

Given your propensity for anti-southern bias I'm surprised you haven't come up with the following: that the current dispute is in fact welcomed by true-blue Home Counties Tories who would be quite happy to see demand for rail services in the north diminished thereby allowing cutbacks in the amount of subsidy required to keep Northern going. It would also allow funding for further electrification, infrastructure projects (like Piccadilly 15/16), new trains, etc to be scrapped and for the Northern franchise to revert to no growth principles. That would also make it easy to ensure that TfN has no need for any real teeth. Far fetched? Perhaps. But we have seen Tories in the past sacrifice the long-term health of the northern economy in order to live up to their deeply held beliefs in Private Good, Public Bad. And Theresa May's promise to re-balance the economy already looks to be nothing more than hot air.

 

[Carlisle]

Passengers should be blaming the DfT not union members fighting for passengers safety for goodsnes sake.

Had the RMT taken far less industrial action initially in the Southern dispute, it’s probable a quiet deal could have much more easily been agreed resulting in the union getting most of what it had wanted, but in going all out for maximum inconvenience for as long as possible, it’s lost a fair amount of passenger sympathy and their mantra ‘it’s all about safety lost credibility in that and the more recent DOO disputes I’m afraid .

 

[PR1Berske]

Given your propensity for anti-southern bias I'm surprised you haven't come up with the following: that the current dispute is in fact welcomed by true-blue Home Counties Tories who would be quite happy to see demand for rail services in the north diminished thereby allowing cutbacks in the amount of subsidy required to keep Northern going. It would also allow funding for further electrification, infrastructure projects (like Piccadilly 15/16), new trains, etc to be scrapped and for the Northern franchise to revert to no growth principles. That would also make it easy to ensure that TfN has no need for any real teeth. Far fetched? Perhaps. But we have seen Tories in the past sacrifice the long-term health of the northern economy in order to live up to their deeply held beliefs in Private Good, Public Bad. And Theresa May's promise to re-balance the economy already looks to be nothing more than hot air.

You've lost me. Is all that in my voice?

 

[northwichcat]

Of course it is bad news for passengers. It's a war out there, and in war innocent people get hurt. But the target of the union members, and lets not forget it is the members, not Mick Cash who is driving this forward. The target is the managers who in the early days thought it was such fun to break away from their desks and play trains. Now 24 strikes down the line the fun has stopped, and every Saturday in September should soften them a bit more.
Just for the record a good many of us are planning a barbecue Sunday as well, for those who are not familiar with the term, when asked to cover a uncovered shift on a Sunday, we can't we are all having a barbecue.

I know it must be very hard for so many to join us in the real world here. But myself I am proud of my colleagues that for the sake of safety, and for disabled access to the trains that you take for granted, they ae prepared to lose thousands of pounds. They are a credit to the trade union movement in a selfish world.

So in short you are saying the RMT object to managers working overtime to reduce disruption, or in other words the RMT want to hurt the passengers more so they can strengthen their position.

The RMT have never been involved in any wars. If DfT starts dropping bombs on depots to kill off guards then you'd have a war and 99.9% of the population on your side. As it is you have a minor employment dispute and 100% of passengers are fed up with the majority pointing the finger of blame at the RMT not DfT or Northern. Like I've said before the RMT will directly cause the government to change employment law and everyone will suffer as a result of their pettiness.

 

[virgintrain1]

So in short you are saying the RMT object to managers working overtime to reduce disruption, or in other words the RMT want to hurt the passengers more so they can strengthen their position.

The RMT have never been involved in any wars. If DfT starts dropping bombs on depots to kill off guards then you'd have a war and 99.9% of the population on your side. As it is you have a minor employment dispute and 100% of passengers are fed up with the majority pointing the finger of blame at the RMT not DfT or Northern. Like I've said before the RMT will directly cause the government to change employment law and everyone will suffer as a result of their pettiness.

Yes It's not rocket science if more managers work trains the less impact strike action has on the company which is the whole point of a strike.

 

[Robertj21a]

Love how not one pro DOO person on here repsoned to my previous post, of course they would rather pretend these are not issues as no one actually has a proper answer.

Passengers should be blaming the DfT not union members fighting for passengers safety for goodsnes sake.

It may just be me but I can't even see a previous posting from you, certainly not in recent days !!

 

[virgintrain1]

It may just be me but I can't even see a previous posting from you, certainly not in recent days !!

Page 140

When people say DOO happens without issue in the South East so why not elsewhere. I think there are fundamental issues with comparing TOCS. Although I still consider DOO less safe in the SE it is highly populated area with a lot of rail traffic and stations. E.g. in am emergency I would think assistance from Network Rail and BTP would not take that long to arrive and the majority of passengers on busy DOO service are commuters which in the whole seem to be able to use the rail system on their own.

However in a rural area with mainly unstaffed stations with a train full of leisure passenger I think is a very different kettle of fish.

Can DOO supporters please just try and answer my concerns:

I have been involved in 3 fatalities in which meant the train was significantly disrupted. The drivers were very shaken up and we the train crew dealt with a full train load of disrupted passengers, giving info taking details and liaising with control. 1 involved a lot of PTS and the guard was required to check the train and track. How is a single driver meant to provide this? As some drivers would be almost incapacitated by an incident like this are passengers left in the dark?

I have removed drunk and violent passengers assisted passengers at unstaffed/short-staffed stations. Had passengers have metal health related breakdowns ect.

How does the driver keep exit doors (the emergency exits!) and aisles clear of obstructions bikes and pushchairs and luggage ect.

During temporary block workings the driver has a enough to worry about rather than passengers connections ect due to our 4 hour delay. We have seen in the news where passengers have has enough and decided to self evacuate.

I could go on.

I just can’t see how any passenger would want a DOO train by choice! I believe expansion of DOO is not about moving forward but purely political and cost saving exercise.

 

[Robertj21a]

Surely, it's just a question of balance. I'd agree that there are some issues that may be easier to resolve in the busier South East but against that they've been running 12 coach trains through the heart of our capital for decades - without any serious issues arising.
Then you have the quiet rural service in another part of the country which tootles around with just 1 or 2 carriages but the RMT will insist on a safety critical guard on all of them. It just isn't terribly logical to the ordinary man in the street.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Why is it so hard to accept that even the new conductors support the dispute. They go through training, constantly having safety, safety, safety, drummed into them, then you think they can't spot the hypocrisy of DCO in relation to safety.
Most of you lot can't see beyond your own narrow field of vision. You are not elderly,(well some of you might be) you are not disabled, you are not infirm. But you think everyone should roll over and accept forcing these groups off the trains because the Tories in the ideological world finds them a chore.
I was on a DCO Scotrail service and the doors were released for a grand total of about 9 seconds. That would be a real issue for someone who was slow on their feet. But a conductor on the train would at least have a chance of knowing they are there and might need help.

I'll tell you a very uncomfortable truth about the majority on here. You are very selfish people. But don't worry, because those of us who aren't selfish will lose thousands in wages to make sure the disabled and elderly can get around and aren't seen as a burden for the Tories to pick off.

We'll win this war. Northern management today have gone into meltdown,

 

[footprints]

You are very selfish people. But don't worry, because those of us who aren't selfish will lose thousands in wages to make sure the disabled and elderly can get around and aren't seen as a burden for the Tories to pick off.

And if any of those disabled and elderly people the martyrs on strike care so passionately about wish to use a train on your weekly day on the picket line, they can just get stuffed eh?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Is that the best you can come up with? You clearly don't give a rats about the elderly on any given day of the week, never mind a strike day.

 

[LOL The Irony]

We'll win this war.

Hmmm, I think I said this a few post's back...

I'm against DOO but the rmt is making it harder and harder to keep my opinion.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

What makes me laugh about some of you lot. Has any of this nonsense reduced your fares? Is it ever likely to?. So keen to get into bed with German state railways you fail to see your 3.5% fare hike is keeping fares in Berlin down. Fancy paying a foreign owned rail company to kick the elderly and disabled off our trains.

Just sad on so many fronts.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Fancy paying a foreign owned rail company to kick the elderly and disabled off our trains.

We could always pay a British company to do it

 

[Bromley boy]

Hmmm, I think I said this a few post's back...

If you’re anti DOO surely your beef is with the DfT who are unilaterally trying to introduce it for political reasons: if this was truly about improving “customer service” it would have been abandoned long ago given the negative impact of the (very predictable) strikes on customers.

It would also have been abandoned if it was only about cost saving, given how much these disputes are costing.

Ask yourself why they are so determined to force this through and who is going to benefit. It will not be you as a passenger! The end game of “true” DOO will result in a lower quality service for passengers and no reduction in fares.

 

[LOL The Irony]

If you’re anti DOO surely your beef is with the DfT who are unilaterally trying to introduce it for political reasons

It always has been.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

We could always pay a British company to do it

Under the Tory guidance no doubt. We could add it to disability benefit cuts and pretend we are really targeting help where it is most needed.

If you are going to tell a lie, make it a big fat Tory lie.

 

[LOL The Irony]

If you are going to tell a lie, make it a big fat Tory lie.

Wilco.

"Chris Grayling is the best SoSfT ever!"

Also, stop making this a "war" please. Some of us have places to go on the weekend

 

[wingsoveryorks]

If you’re anti DOO surely your beef is with the DfT who are unilaterally trying to introduce it for political reasons: if this was truly about improving “customer service” it would have been abandoned long ago given the negative impact of the (very predictable) strikes on customers.

It would also have been abandoned if it was only about cost saving, given how much these disputes are costing.

Ask yourself why they are so determined to force this through and who is going to benefit. It will not be you as a passenger! The end game of “true” DOO will result in a lower quality service for passengers and no reduction in fares.

You make a very good point. If we could just extract from Graylings secret cabinet how much the government has wasted on this ideology, it would blow people away. No wonder Northern don't give a fig about their crap services, it is being propped up by the Tories. This is taxpayers money. But Grayling has a history of wasting taxpayers money for his ideological ends.

 

[Bromley boy]

It always has been.

So why direct your ire towards the RMT for their inevitable reaction, which the DfT knew would occur before they embarked on this strategy, and still chose to do so anyway for political reasons?

The RMT are far from perfect but they didn’t choose to start all this...

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Wilco.

"Chris Grayling is the best SoSfT ever!"

Also, stop making this a "war" please. Some of us have places to go on the weekend

Can't help you there. I have created plans of my own. It's like a windfall of free time donated to me by a bald Tory with a history of failure.

 

[LOL The Irony]

So why direct your ire towards the RMT for their inevitable reaction, which the DfT knew would occur before they embarked on this strategy?

It's more because they could play it smart but decided to go in all guns blazing.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

So why direct your ire towards the RMT for their inevitable reaction, which the DfT knew would occur before they embarked on this strategy, and still chose to do so anyway for political reasons?

The RMT are far from perfect but they didn’t choose to start all this...

Non of it is down to the RMT. Remember the speech of "Wilkinson"

Of course when they started this war they had a nice big parliamentary majority. They thought it would be easy to win. Whoops.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

It's more because they could play it smart but decided to go in all guns blazing.

Playing it smart now. Hurt the managers Saturdays off plans. Genius.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Playing it smart now. Hurt the managers Saturdays off plans. Genius.

... As in without affecting passengers...