Poll: What are your suggestions for the future redundant HST sets?

[Mintona]

I’ve heard a rumour that GWR want to keep a few, for ‘extra’ services. Hitachi are supplying enough 800s to run the normal service but GWR want a couple of 2+8s available for events such as Boardmasters, Cardiff rugby events and Cheltenham Gold Cup, so they can provide extra capacity without having to curtail other regular services.

 

[CardiffKid]

I’ve heard a rumour that GWR want to keep a few, for ‘extra’ services. Hitachi are supplying enough 800s to run the normal service but GWR want a couple of 2+8s available for events such as Boardmasters, Cardiff rugby events and Cheltenham Gold Cup, so they can provide extra capacity without having to curtail other regular services.

That sounds very sensible. I was going to suggest flogging one or two to either the Welsh Government or WRU. Landore could maintain them.

They'd need PRM modifications though which could be costly.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I’ve heard a rumour that GWR want to keep a few, for ‘extra’ services. Hitachi are supplying enough 800s to run the normal service but GWR want a couple of 2+8s available for events such as Boardmasters, Cardiff rugby events and Cheltenham Gold Cup, so they can provide extra capacity without having to curtail other regular services.

The issue with that is keeping guards and drivers training current and maintenance.

You’d be looking to keep them in warm storage or on a semi regular service. Add to that PRM mods and it gets expensive. A couple of extra 80x could do the same job and also go into the regular pool. The cost would probably be similar.

 

[Mintona]

The issue with that is keeping guards and drivers training current and maintenance.

You’d be looking to keep them in warm storage or on a semi regular service. Add to that PRM mods and it gets expensive. A couple of extra 80x could do the same job and also go into the regular pool. The cost would probably be similar.

The drivers and guards will have competency on the 2+4s which should be running around more frequently soon, as will maintenance staff. If 2+8s have door mods done they will be identical to the 2+4s, just with some extra coaches, so I don’t think that’ll be a huge issue.

 

[Rail Blues]

But of course the answer will be: whatever nets the ROSCO most money. If they can let a handful to fill a very particular gap and cover the costs of PRM mods, they will. If they can't they will realise the scrap value.

Simple as. The feelings of a subset of enthusiasts won't enter into it.

 

[Journeyman]

I cannot help myself, I am drawn to these wibble threads like a nerdy moth to a flame, but inevitably find myself incredulous and exasperated within a minute.

Haha, likewise!

 

[cjmillsnun]

The drivers and guards will have competency on the 2+4s which should be running around more frequently soon, as will maintenance staff. If 2+8s have door mods done they will be identical to the 2+4s, just with some extra coaches, so I don’t think that’ll be a huge issue.

That also depends on route knowledge. Would the drivers and guards on the short sets sign the routes required?

Bear in mind the short sets are being used to replace displaced DMUs on regional routes and are a temporary solution.

 

[Mintona]

That also depends on route knowledge. Would the drivers and guards on the short sets sign the routes required?

Bear in mind the short sets are being used to replace displaced DMUs on regional routes and are a temporary solution.

Bristol, Exeter and Plymouth should be able to cover everything, and I think they’ll all be getting 2+4 work in time.

 

[43096]

I cannot help myself, I am drawn to these wibble threads like a nerdy moth to a flame, but inevitably find myself incredulous and exasperated within a minute.

Is that why you’ve just started another one about the 769s?

 

[43096]

Bristol, Exeter and Plymouth should be able to cover everything, and I think they’ll all be getting 2+4 work in time.

But are the “HSS” links getting local work, otherwise they lose competence quickly.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe the moon is made of green cheese and that 9/11 was the work of shape-shifting lizard men. What either you or I think is immaterial, we have to give evidence.

If you think XC services could accommodate more HSTs, demonstrate how the timetables of multiple TOCs can be accommodated within this shift.

I'm not sure its up to me.

The only proof we have is that timetables have been ammended in tha past to enable HST operation, evidenced by the fact that we have them in operation.

As far as I'm aware, we've not had anyone with a responsibility for planning XC services on here to confirm whether its possible or not, so the sensible likelihood to me would be that its been done before, therefore it can probably be done again.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I think personally a few sets of the HST should be preserved, but aside from that they should be scrapped, or used for parcels if an operator so wishes to take the risk and use them. It may be unpopular among enthusiasts, but we knew for a long time the HST wasn't going to last forever, so it's end of service was inevitably going to happen. They just don't want it to be now, but unfortunately that doesn't change the reality. I think preservation of one or two is important though, because I do see the value in the trains just not from a enthusiast perspective, but a railway history one as a whole.

 

[nuneatonmark]

I think some should be sold to a dedicated heritage railway that only runs HSTs, just for everyone who is obsessed with them, we could call it the Midland Mainline......

 

[Journeyman]

It's a shame the Internet didn't exist in 1976. I can guarantee everyone would have ripped the HSTs to shreds as useless modern crap.

 

[greyman42]

It's a shame the Internet didn't exist in 1976. I can guarantee everyone would have ripped the HSTs to shreds as useless modern crap.

I don't think that was the case. Most people, including cranks, were very enthusiastic about them.

 

[AndrewE]

It's a shame the Internet didn't exist in 1976. I can guarantee everyone would have ripped the HSTs to shreds as useless modern crap.

I am sure they would not have.
It ought to be obligatory for people making these sorts of assertions to reveal their age so that we can tell whether they have any awareness if what life was like in 1976. How old are you?
A large proportion of us were living in grotty flats with no central heating then, and a year earlier we even had separate Ascot heaters over the kitchen sink and the bath!
In 1976 I had just moved on after working at Bristol Temple Meads (but still on BR) and was delighted by the HSTs (and the Mk 3 stock when it came in on the WCML, not that there was much wrong with the Mk 2s.)
A friend used to buy breakfast on the train from Bristol to Birmingham at the time because he said a) it gave you a "1st class" seat on a 2nd class ticket and b) was the only Mk 1 vehicle in the train, so the rougher ride meant that it felt as if you were going a lot faster!

 

[yorksrob]

I think some should be sold to a dedicated heritage railway that only runs HSTs, just for everyone who is obsessed with them, we could call it the Midland Mainline......

Hey, works for me

 

[Rail Blues]

I'm not sure its up to me.

The only proof we have is that timetables have been ammended in tha past to enable HST operation, evidenced by the fact that we have them in operation.

As far as I'm aware, we've not had anyone with a responsibility for planning XC services on here to confirm whether its possible or not, so the sensible likelihood to me would be that its been done before, therefore it can probably be done again.

It sort of is, you make the claim you back it up. Especially as another poster gave a fairly thorough and worked example of the impact on other services. Is (s) he wrong?

 

[Rail Blues]

Is that why you’ve just started another one about the 769s?

Yep. Might do a 442 one for s-hits and giggles in a bit.

 

[yorksrob]

It sort of is, you make the claim you back it up. Especially as another poster gave a fairly thorough and worked example of the impact on other services. Is (s) he wrong?

Well it sort of isn't. The other poster doesn't tackle why it has been possible to the integrate the existing diagrams into the timetable, but not any others, particularly as the country moves further towards clockface timetables generally.

 

[HLE]

In response to HLE’s post - in the early days of Cross Country Virgin ran the odd 2+2 HST covering for a 158 so not that far into fantasy - may cost a big more in fuel mind ...

Well I’m blown.....every day is a learning day, I never knew that.

@tbtc - they can’t be any worse than a 153 accelerating! Wasn’t a serious suggestion though.

 

[tbtc]

The only proof we have is that timetables have been ammended in tha past to enable HST operation, evidenced by the fact that we have them in operation.

As far as I'm aware, we've not had anyone with a responsibility for planning XC services on here to confirm whether its possible or not, so the sensible likelihood to me would be that its been done before, therefore it can probably be done again.

It's like belief in fairies - there's no point in arguing with your blind faith that we should just rip up other services for the sake of keeping the HSTs alive... "I do believe in HSTs! I do! I do!”

I think some should be sold to a dedicated heritage railway that only runs HSTs, just for everyone who is obsessed with them, we could call it the Midland Mainline......

It's a shame the Internet didn't exist in 1976. I can guarantee everyone would have ripped the HSTs to shreds as useless modern crap.

There'd have been a lot of threads about where we could cascade Deltics to and how important it was to introduce new services for the sake of keeping these high speed trains going (despite them being unsuitable to stop/start services). "My Idea For A New Sleeper Service Up The Settle And Carlisle So We Can Keep The Deltics Operating" etc.

It's the way of the world though - I remember the "modern tat" being introduced under BR that people later get misty eyed about when they approach withdrawal - e.g. the 60s were terrible locomotives when they were replacing good old fashioned 37s etc but people are desperate to find a future for them when they are parked up gathering dust at Toton.

One day people will be complaining about the 800/801s being withdrawn, however much they are hated by some now.

Well I’m blown.....every day is a learning day, I never knew that.

@tbtc - they can’t be any worse than a 153 accelerating! Wasn’t a serious suggestion though.

(and I remember watching the two coach HSTs at Waverley when BR used them on the Edinburgh - Manchester services)

 

[yorksrob]

It's like belief in fairies - there's no point in arguing with your blind faith that we should just rip up other services for the sake of keeping the HSTs alive... "I do believe in HSTs! I do! I do!”

Well, I've never seen a fairy on Crosscountry.

I've seen several HST's though.

 

[UP13]

I love them but we can't live in the past. Lovers should try to raise the funds to preserve as many as possible otherwise they should be scrapped.

I'm a big supporter of preservation, I'm mad enoigh to want 455s, networkers etc preserved but it's not the job of the rail industry or the tax payer to keep elderly stock running in regular service for the sake of it.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't think that was the case. Most people, including cranks, were very enthusiastic about them.

Actually common criticisms frequently levelled at them in the railway press at the time were unsuitably short formations and a lack of luggage space compared to existing stock. I can't imagine where we've heard similar criticisms recently. Though I've not seen contemporary evidence for it, if online railway forums had existed at the time of the HST's introduction then I don't doubt that the foam padded IC70 seats, with their imperfect window alignment in standard class and low backs to boot, would have come in for significant criticism compared to the sprung cushions that prevaled on existing rolling stock. "Why can't these short modern plastic trains have comfortable seats that line up with the windows?" would be the oft heard cry.

Don't forget that in their early years HSTs gained the derogatory nickname of "trams" from the enthusiast fraternity (They didn't count as real trains), and were frequently avoided like the plague unless needed for an absolutely necessary positioning move. They certainly weren't heralded as any kind of saviour by the enthusiast community.

 

[sprinterguy]

We'd have seen a lot of threads about where we could cascade Deltics to and how important it was to introduce new services for the sake of keeping these high speed trains going (despite them being unsuitable to stop/start services). "My Idea For A New Sleeper Service Up The Settle And Carlisle So We Can Keep The Deltics Operating" etc.

Even Modern Railways was guilty of that at the time: I recall a headline article quite seriously suggesting the use of Deltics on Transpennine North services from 1982. Had online forums existed at the time, I don't doubt there would have been endless suggestions to use them on a reinstated passenger service over the recently mothballed Woodhead route, or a reinstated Waverley line.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Even Modern Railways was guilty of that at the time: I recall a headline article suggesting their use on Transpennine North services from 1982. Had online forums existed at the time, I don't doubt there would have been endless suggestions to use them on a reinstated passenger service over the recently mothballed Woodhead route, or a reinstated Waverley line.

Well they had the grunt for such undertakings... (note to self:no, don't get ideas now...)

 

[yorksrob]

Even Modern Railways was guilty of that at the time: I recall a headline article quite seriously suggesting the use of Deltics on Transpennine North services from 1982. Had online forums existed at the time, I don't doubt there would have been endless suggestions to use them on a reinstated passenger service over the recently mothballed Woodhead route, or a reinstated Waverley line.

Weren't they used on that route quite often for a year or so ?

 

[Chester1]

Even if the PRM-TSI upgrades where on schedule and budget, what proportion of Mark IIIs and 43s are in a condition to be upgraded and then used for long enough to recoup the cost of the work? Haven't Scotrail and GWR basically cherry picked the best GWR fleet? I guess the same could be done with LNER and EMT Mark IIIs too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually common criticisms frequently levelled at them in the railway press at the time were unsuitably short formations and a lack of luggage space compared to existing stock. I can't imagine where we've heard similar criticisms recently. Though I've not seen contemporary evidence for it, if online railway forums had existed at the time of the HST's introduction then I don't doubt that the foam padded IC70 seats, with their imperfect window alignment in standard class and low backs to boot, would have come in for significant criticism compared to the sprung cushions that prevaled on existing rolling stock. "Why can't these short modern plastic trains have comfortable seats that line up with the windows?" would be the oft heard cry.

Don't forget that in their early years HSTs gained the derogatory nickname of "trams" from the enthusiast fraternity (They didn't count as real trains), and were frequently avoided like the plague unless needed for an absolutely necessary positioning move. They certainly weren't heralded as any kind of saviour by the enthusiast community.

And the now-beloved Class 442 was known at the time as a "plastic PIG" (the latter presumably being some kind of SR designation ) - and not in a nice way, despite the 442 basically being the Mk3 coach with most of the (passenger facing) problems solved, such as power doors, better seats and lighting and vestibule doors that don't bang back and forth.