Is DCO (Driver Controlled Operation) inevitable across the whole network?

[Kite159]

As a point of order, Monks Risborough has a TVM (working on my last visit) and a PERTIS permit machine.

Must have been very well hidden as I couldn't see any signs of a TVM or a PERTIS machine at Monks Risborough when I was there a week or so ago.

 

[Hadders]

We've had driver only operated 8 and 12-car services running non-stop between Cambridge and Kings Cross going back to the days of British Rail, potentially carrying in excess of 1,500 passengers.

Then we have single car services carrying a handful of passengers on some lines (Stranraer, Marston Vale for example) with a driver and guard.

To me it seems the wrong way round.

 

[tsr]

Must have been very well hidden as I couldn't see any signs of a TVM or a PERTIS machine at Monks Risborough when I was there a week or so ago.

Perhaps they’ve removed it in the last couple of months, then. It was towards the middle of the platform, if I remember correctly, with a sort of hut structure around it. Not near the entrances/exits.

 

[Esker-pades]

Perhaps they’ve removed it in the last couple of months, then. It was towards the middle of the platform, if I remember correctly, with a sort of hut structure around it. Not near the entrances/exits.

The National Rail Enquiries website lists a ticket machine as one of the facilities available.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/MRS/details.html

 

[3141]

I recall many years ago seeing the ticket office clerk at Princes Risborough close the booking office for a few minutes in order to cross the footbridge to the down platform and place a ramp against a train that was shortly due to arrive from which a passenger using a wheelchair was expected to alight. it's one way to deal with that issue, though at the expense of an open booking office for a few minutes.

As well as Little Kimble and Monks Risborough, mentioned in earlier posts, Saunderton and Denham Golf Club were unstaffed, and Chiltern presumably has an arrangement for wheelchair passenger at those places.

As for making everyone competent to do revenue, I do agree this would be useful in many places, but checking tickets can sometimes detract from the good that a member of onboard crew can bring to a service. For example, it slows down train patrols and security checks, and means that people with travel queries usually have to wait longer for someone to walk past. A ticket check is literally the lowest priority for a guard - any other safety and customer care duties always should come first, including things like doing patrols of late-night drunk tanks.

I've put two sections of the quote in bold, because they're activities to which the phrase "more honoured in the breach than the observance" could well be applied. If, on late at night trains on Friday or Saturday, the guard doesn't patrol at all, I hardly blame him or her, because I wouldn't like to have to do it.



V[/QUOTE]

 

[Robertj21a]

I recall many years ago seeing the ticket office clerk at Princes Risborough close the booking office for a few minutes in order to cross the footbridge to the down platform and place a ramp against a train that was shortly due to arrive from which a passenger using a wheelchair was expected to alight. it's one way to deal with that issue, though at the expense of an open booking office for a few minutes.

As well as Little Kimble and Monks Risborough, mentioned in earlier posts, Saunderton and Denham Golf Club were unstaffed, and Chiltern presumably has an arrangement for wheelchair passenger at those places.



I've put two sections of the quote in bold, because they're activities to which the phrase "more honoured in the breach than the observance" could well be applied. If, on late at night trains on Friday or Saturday, the guard doesn't patrol at all, I hardly blame him or her, because I wouldn't like to have to do it.


V

[/QUOTE]


Well, if they're not really working on late night Fridays and Saturdays, perhaps they should transfer to a simple 5-day week (Sunday - Thursday), running DOO on Fridays and Saturdays...... That way we all know where we are and there are far less hours for staff to cover every week - so the total numbers employed can drop quite significantly........

Or perhaps that's not how the staff want it to end up ?

 

[PHILIPE]

We've had driver only operated 8 and 12-car services running non-stop between Cambridge and Kings Cross going back to the days of British Rail, potentially carrying in excess of 1,500 passengers.

Then we have single car services carrying a handful of passengers on some lines (Stranraer, Marston Vale for example) with a driver and guard.

To me it seems the wrong way round.

What is the single car on the Stranraer route ?

 

[Esker-pades]

What is the single car on the Stranraer route ?

A 156 that's had a bit of an identity crisis.

 

[Carlisle]

And are you also going to reeducate the passengers
.

That is of course very relevant , but do bear in mind similar logic was pursued by those running the former BR Southern region in the 1960s and 70s when it came to production and operation of the old slammers long after the likes of Glasgow, was operating sliding door 303s etc

 

[Kite159]

Perhaps they’ve removed it in the last couple of months, then. It was towards the middle of the platform, if I remember correctly, with a sort of hut structure around it. Not near the entrances/exits.

Certainly looks to be the case, I dug out a photo I took back in 2015 which has a Permit to travel machine (plus something which might be a TVM)
Monks Risborough (August 2015)

Now, it appears the TVM blue case & Permit to Travel machine have been removed for whatever reason:

Monks Risborough Station

 

[geoffk]

I've long wondered why they don't fit bus style stop buttons for that purpose. Works well in Switzerland, and I expect would here as most people have used a bus at some point and know that you[1] press the button to get off. [1] Mostly. I know in some parts of the country there used to be a culture of "thou shalt not press the bell"

Sheffield was one of those. I arrived there as a student from Bristol 1965 and pressed the bell to get off the bus. I soon learnt that this was not the done thing, but how was I supposed to know?

 

[KeithP]

From NRE:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stati...potDetails.aspx?stdCode=SME_MRS&fullsize=7007

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

GWR Thames Valley stopping services (ex Thames Trains) is DOO

GWR agreement is Paddington to Oxford/Bedwyn as far as I can remember.

 

[CN75]

If, on late at night trains on Friday or Saturday, the guard doesn't patrol at all, I hardly blame him or her, because I wouldn't like to have to do it.
V

Guards who won’t or can’t patrol a train on a Friday or Saturday night cannot do their jobs properly and should leave or move to other ones.

 

[Jonfun]

Sheffield was one of those. I arrived there as a student from Bristol 1965 and pressed the bell to get off the bus. I soon learnt that this was not the done thing, but how was I supposed to know?

I have to ask... if you don't ring the bell how does the driver know he needs to stop? I can imagine stopping at every single stop across a given route would add ages to the journey. Obviously ringing the bell at the terminus would be unnecessary.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I have to ask... if you don't ring the bell how does the driver know he needs to stop? I can imagine stopping at every single stop across a given route would add ages to the journey. Obviously ringing the bell at the terminus would be unnecessary.

In places I've lived where the bell wasn't customarily rung, the driver knew people wanted to get off because they got up and moved towards the door when approaching the stop. Obviously this only works if buses aren't full.

 

[Robertj21a]

In places I've lived where the bell wasn't customarily rung, the driver knew people wanted to get off because they got up and moved towards the door when approaching the stop. Obviously this only works if buses aren't full.

It won't work now. Many operators request that you stay in your seat until the bus stops (H&S, Insurance etc)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have to ask... if you don't ring the bell how does the driver know he needs to stop? I can imagine stopping at every single stop across a given route would add ages to the journey. Obviously ringing the bell at the terminus would be unnecessary.

On the Little White Buses around Ormskirk you went to the front and "spoke to the driver while the vehicle was in motion", as the sign instructs you not to do, also "stand[ing] forward of the notice" which was also not allowed. This was not the easiest thing to do on a bouncing Transit breadvan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sheffield was one of those. I arrived there as a student from Bristol 1965 and pressed the bell to get off the bus. I soon learnt that this was not the done thing, but how was I supposed to know?

It seems you just know. UK airline cabin crew don't seem to mind the use of the call bell (they just ignore it if it's not an appropriate time for it), but jumped up US "flight attendants" seem for some reason to take massive exception to it despite it still being there and still containing a little pictogram implying you press it for drinks.

 

[pt_mad]

Someone pointed to the Javelin Southeastern High-speed services being DCO with the second member of staff being an OBS but necessary.

Is the second member of staff not a 'train manager' who is actually trained in safety duties such as evacuation?

 

[theironroad]

Do we really need yet another thread going over the same old stuff for the umpteenth time?????

 

[pt_mad]

Guards who won’t or can’t patrol a train on a Friday or Saturday night cannot do their jobs properly and should leave or move to other ones.

Seriously? Toc policy is usually that members of staff should avoid any trouble wherever possible, lock themselves up if they need to and ring police if necessary, and to walk away from confrontational and disruptive passengers if they show signs of agression or become overly angry.
Some of these services coming out of the big cities at 1130 on a Saturday night are full (sometimes standing) with louts cheering and jeering and ridiculing and throwing beer about. If we have a guard who may be a quiet sort of person, or doesn't have as much confidence in themselves as some others, then they could be opening themselves up to ASBO behaviour (as could any guard )when they have the option of avoiding it, where going through the train is optional rather than a necessity and it's a 'drunk train'.

 

[Carlisle]

Seriously? Toc policy is usually that members of staff should avoid any trouble wherever possible, lock themselves up if they need to and ring police if necessary, and to walk away from confrontational and disruptive passengers if they show signs of agression or become overly angry.
Some of these services coming out of the big cities at 1130 on a Saturday night are full (sometimes standing) with louts cheering and jeering and ridiculing and throwing beer about. If we have a guard who may be a quiet sort of person, or doesn't have as much confidence in themselves as some others, then they could be opening themselves up to ASBO behaviour (as could any guard )when they have the option of avoiding it, where going through the train is optional rather than a necessity and it's a 'drunk train'.

In which case there’s some logic (perhaps plus a properly trained security guard if necessary ) in what’s said in post #36

 

[Bletchleyite]

In which case there’s some logic (perhaps plus a trained security guard if necessary ) in what’s said in post #36

Is that not part of the Merseyrail DOO argument? During the day on a Saturday when trains are busy, the environment is safe and most people have probably paid, just have DOO. But get to 9pm and later and the "vomit comets", put a team of 3 or 4 burly camera-laden enforcement officers/RPIs on board to ensure everyone has coughed up and nobody causes trouble?

 

[CN75]

Someone pointed to the Javelin Southeastern High-speed services being DCO with the second member of staff being an OBS but necessary.

Is the second member of staff not a 'train manager' who is actually trained in safety duties such as evacuation?

The differences appears to be the letter following OB, the Southeastern staff being On Board Managers rather than Supervisors, and both have evacuation training.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7562813.stm

When the OBM grade was introduced in Southeastern, the RMT held industrial action over the perceived attack on conductors and then refused to recognise the OBM grade. The RMT then went to Southeastern a year or two later to demand recognition for the OBM grade when it was in place. The terms and conditions of employment and operation had already been implemented without union involvement.

 

[CN75]

Seriously? Toc policy is usually that members of staff should avoid any trouble wherever possible, lock themselves up if they need to and ring police if necessary, and to walk away from confrontational and disruptive passengers if they show signs of agression or become overly angry.
Some of these services coming out of the big cities at 1130 on a Saturday night are full (sometimes standing) with louts cheering and jeering and ridiculing and throwing beer about. If we have a guard who may be a quiet sort of person, or doesn't have as much confidence in themselves as some others, then they could be opening themselves up to ASBO behaviour (as could any guard )when they have the option of avoiding it, where going through the train is optional rather than a necessity and it's a 'drunk train'.

The question arises though - what is the point of having a person essential for evacuating passengers during an emergency being so much of a shrinking violet that they can’t be visible on board a train with lively characters?

Or, how is the guard being valuable to the drunk passengers or to anyone who isn’t loud and drunk on the train by not being there and showing some authority of the situation by just being a presence?

The answer has been that the door duties require a position of safety. The doors argument is lost and the RMT GA arrangement shows that even they have accepted that. If guards/OBS/etc. stay (and in a modernised form, they should do), being visible particularly on drunk trains is exactly the sort of task that needs doing. Many guards do a great job of that, but many don’t on the basis it’s too difficult, unpleasant or someone else’s problem.

 

[pt_mad]

The question arises though - what is the point of having a person essential for evacuating passengers during an emergency being so much of a shrinking violet that they can’t be visible on board a train with lively characters?

Or, how is the guard being valuable to the drunk passengers or to anyone who isn’t loud and drunk on the train by not being there and showing some authority of the situation by just being a presence?

The answer has been that the door duties require a position of safety. The doors argument is lost and the RMT GA arrangement shows that even they have accepted that. If guards/OBS/etc. stay (and in a modernised form, they should do), being visible particularly on drunk trains is exactly the sort of task that needs doing. Many guards do a great job of that, but many don’t on the basis it’s too difficult, unpleasant or someone else’s problem.

The guard is not going to show authority by simply being there amongst a train full of drunks. You and me might recognise and respect a guard's authority on the railway. However the mentality of many of the anti social behaviour types in the cities at the weekend does not respect or recognise any authority from the guard. Some of them are wise that the guard has no power of law enforcement and they are not the police and are probably working alone Vs a huge group of jeering drunks who may be uncooperative or disruptive because they just don't like staff in uniforms, or people who check tickets and try to uphold rules. Some people just hate rules or people they perceive to be railway nerds or do gooders.

4 things seem to bring disruptive folk to the railways when combined. The weekend, cities with nightlife, alcohol and hours of darkness. Why this occurs more at night when people still drink in the weekend daytime I'm not sure, darkness definitely does seem to be a huge factor.

 

[coppercapped]

The question arises though - what is the point of having a person essential for evacuating passengers during an emergency being so much of a shrinking violet that they can’t be visible on board a train with lively characters?

Or, how is the guard being valuable to the drunk passengers or to anyone who isn’t loud and drunk on the train by not being there and showing some authority of the situation by just being a presence?

The answer has been that the door duties require a position of safety. The doors argument is lost and the RMT GA arrangement shows that even they have accepted that. If guards/OBS/etc. stay (and in a modernised form, they should do), being visible particularly on drunk trains is exactly the sort of task that needs doing. Many guards do a great job of that, but many don’t on the basis it’s too difficult, unpleasant or someone else’s problem.

There are two separate issues here:

• being the 'face of the railway' to passengers - that is ticket checking, supplying advice and general assistance
• controlling unruly passengers and ensuring the security and safety of the other passengers.

If the issues on some late night trains in some areas are as bad as depicted, then it is unreasonable to expect a single person to master the situation and a security staff with Police powers should be present. I would add that I use late night trains from Paddington a couple of times a month and have never encountered such behaviour so is such behaviour confined to very specific areas?

In any event the National Conditions of Travel and the Railway Byelaws are quite clear about disorderly behaviour. In the cases in question is it not possible to deny access to both stations and trains to the unruly and drunk and nip the problem in the bud?

 

[theironroad]

There are two separate issues here:

• being the 'face of the railway' to passengers - that is ticket checking, supplying advice and general assistance
• controlling unruly passengers and ensuring the security and safety of the other passengers.

If the issues on some late night trains in some areas are as bad as depicted, then it is unreasonable to expect a single person to master the situation and a security staff with Police powers should be present. I would add that I use late night trains from Paddington a couple of times a month and have never encountered such behaviour so is such behaviour confined to very specific areas?

In any event the National Conditions of Travel and the Railway Byelaws are quite clear about disorderly behaviour. In the cases in question is it not possible to deny access to both stations and trains to the unruly and drunk and nip the problem in the bud?

With respect, any railway employees quoting ncoc and bylaws to some drunk people is more likely to agrravate the situation. Plenty of these people are happy to spit at and physically assault police officers, so railway employees don't stand much chance.

 

[Bookd]

I often use last trains from Waterloo on the Windsor lines and have never felt threatened although some passengers may be merry. I am appalled by the descriptions of behavior often described on these forums in other areas.