Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bromley boy]

And I would be in favour of reinstating staff on such services - or making modifications to the services to remove the need for them, as per Merseyrail - i.e. level no-gap boarding. Indeed, as I've said before I think it's a disgrace PRM-TSI did not mandate level no-gap boarding for new rolling stock and platforms, and think with the recent massive orders a huge trick has been missed by everyone other than those who have chosen Stadler.

There’s no chance of either of those alternatives happening in the medium (or even long) term on my patch, sadly.

It strikes me the Northern issues could be resolved at a stroke (and with minimal investment!) by simply retaining guards and introducing a “driver open, guard close” method of working.

Whether the local aslef branches would accept that is another matter...

 

[Starmill]

As a passenger I would not be in support of Northern moving to full Thameslink style DOO, because generally it serves many unstaffed or low staffed stations so passenger care and assistance cannot be assured.

However, I would be in support of a move to a form of DOO (and it is still DOO strictly speaking) similar to the Strathclyde version in which a second member of staff was always present on the train, but their role was exclusively passenger care/assistance and revenue (and some level of safety training e.g. relating to evacuation and protecting the train in emergency). This seems basically to be the Greater Anglia agreement, no?

But this is exactly the point that I was making. This thread is about 'DOO' as the industrial dispute is.

What you are talking about here is not about whether we have "DOO" or not. Terms like 'full DOO' and 'true DOO' don't really make sense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But this is exactly the point that I was making. This thread is about 'DOO' as the industrial dispute is.

What you are talking about here is not about whether we have "DOO" or not.

But it's not that simple. As has happened with Greater Anglia, it is quite possible that a settlement will be found which does result in there being DOO (i.e. driver in charge of operation) but with a second member of staff with some manner of safety training without whom the train is cancelled, i.e. some kind of super-OBS.

So while it's technically "DOO or not DOO", in practice the settlement is very likely to be somewhere in the middle - technically "DOO" in a strict sense, but practically still two members of staff on all, or at least most, trains.

 

[Tomnick]

they have said over and over again

No they haven't. As others have said, guaranteeing the pay and conditions of existing staff isn't the same as guaranteeing a second member of staff on every train. I haven't seen any hint of the latter.

 

[Carlisle]

But it's not that simple. As has happened with Greater Anglia, it is quite possible that a settlement will be found which does result in there being DOO (i.e. driver in charge of operation) but with a second member of staff with some manner of safety training without whom the train is cancelled, .

I believe the GA deal requires a fully route/ door trained guard/conductor for the train to run outside the presentl DOO area, although it’s planned drivers will normally operate the doors .

 

[IanXC]

But it's not that simple. As has happened with Greater Anglia, it is quite possible that a settlement will be found which does result in there being DOO (i.e. driver in charge of operation) but with a second member of staff with some manner of safety training without whom the train is cancelled, i.e. some kind of super-OBS.

So while it's technically "DOO or not DOO", in practice the settlement is very likely to be somewhere in the middle - technically "DOO" in a strict sense, but practically still two members of staff on all, or at least most, trains.

I must disagree. The GA deal isn't some kind of half way house, its (for the most part) Guarded operation where the Driver is responsible for the doors. GA will not be operating anything remotely DOO outside their current DOO area.

 

[tsr]

Rather than a navigational aid and a load of management nonsense to obscure the reality...

Such documentation proved to be a fair prediction when it came to GTR’s extension of DOO on the Southern operating area. In fact, a lot of the uncertainties* would have been resolved if people had read the bits of paper they were given.

*from a staffing point of view, not the operational and accessibility vagueness...

 

[Carlisle]

I must disagree. The GA deal isn't some kind of half way house, its (for the most part) Guarded operation where the Driver is responsible for the doors. GA will not be operating anything remotely DOO outside their current DOO area.

I’d question the wisdom of whoever ultimately authorised that deal, it just makes it harder for the likes of merseyrail, Southern, northern and SWR etc to communicate to their workforce and unions that doors and routes are a largely redundant part of a modern on board staff role, given the DFT don’t currently appear to have abandoned the hope of DOO elsewhere.

Whatever the failures of the RMT they certainly haven’t lost the knack of playing one TOC off against another.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d question the wisdom of whoever ultimately uthorised that deal, it just makes it harder for the likes of merseyrail, Southern, northern and SWR etc to communicate to their workforce and unions that doors and routes are a largely redundant part of a modern on board staff role, given the DFT don’t currently appear to have abandoned the hope of DOO elsewhere.

Whatever the failures of the RMT they certainly haven’t lost the knack of playing one TOC off against another.

What other franchises do or don't do isn't Abellio's issue, though, is it? (Other than other Abellio ones)

 

[Carlisle]

What other franchises do or don't do isn't Abellio's issue, though, is it? (Other than other Abellio ones)

True, but the RMTs anti DOO campaign is national, so assuming the government have been compensating the TOCs affected by the resultant strikes, it’s surely got a say in the eventual deal

 

[northwichcat]

Northern aren't planning to operate any train services on the Mid-Cheshire line at all on Saturday and only plan to operate 3 replacement buses in each direction. A number of retailers and other facilities like leisure centres will definitely be short of staff unless that changes.

 

[Bromley boy]

it just makes it harder for the likes of merseyrail, Southern, northern and SWR etc to communicate to their workforce and unions that doors and routes are a largely redundant part of a modern on board staff role,

Perhaps they shouldn’t be communicating that message in the first place! Now there’s a thought...

 

[Carlisle]

Perhaps they shouldn’t be communicating that message in the first place! Now there’s a thought...

Id suggest you contact RSSB if you feel their research and evidence are completely wrong , and assuming your correct, door trained guards will eventually be restored to all U.K. lines,.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Id suggest you contact RSSB if you feel their research and evidence are completely wrong , and assuming your correct, door trained guards will eventually be restored to all U.K. lines

That is a bit of a paradox. As long as DOO remains accepted on some lines, unless there is a substantial difference to another line on which it is proposed it is hard to justify why it is OK for one but not the other.

 

[Bromley boy]

Id suggest you contact RSSB if you feel their research and evidence are completely wrong , and assuming your correct, door trained guards will eventually be restored to all U.K. lines,.

I’d rather write to my MP and ask why the DfT has embarked on a number of needless, politically motivated industrial disputes which have cost tens if not hundreds of millions, caused untold disruption and are proving ultimately fruitless at some TOCs!

 

[footprints]

I’d rather write to my MP and ask why the DfT has embarked on a number of needless, politically motivated industrial disputes which have cost tens if not hundreds of millions, caused untold disruption and are proving ultimately fruitless at some TOCs!

Maybe CC your letter to the RMT and ask them the same question.

 

[Eric]

I don’t understand why we’re having this dispute. Forgive my ignorance but the driver should do the doors full stop. Just like it used to happen with the old style buses that conductors.

The conductor should be on the train to check tickets and avoid fare dodgers, whilst also mainting the safety of the passengers.

The amount of times I’ve heard the excuse of “the trains too busy to check tickets and operate the doors etc” would be consigned to the history bin if the driver, who I believe is the best person to open and close the doors undertakes that duty.

The conductor would still be the conductor - checking and selling tickets without the hinderance of messing around with the doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t understand why we’re having this dispute. Forgive my ignorance but the driver should do the doors full stop. Just like it used to happen with the old style buses that conductors.

To be fair, those mostly didn't *have* doors, and the conductor did the dispatch with two bells just like on't'railway.

I am however inclined to agree that where there is justification for a guard on anything other than long distance IC type services, that role is made more effective by not having them do dispatch.

What I do think is that guards should not be in the back cab or otherwise hiding unless they need to do so for their own safety. Quite a few of them (more likely in the South than the North) like to encourage their own job's demise at times by preferring to sit in the cab reading the paper than actually do their job properly.

 

[Eric]

To be fair, those mostly didn't *have* doors, and the conductor did the dispatch with two bells just like on't'railway.

I am however inclined to agree that where there is justification for a guard on anything other than long distance IC type services, that role is made more effective by not having them do dispatch.

What I do think is that guards should not be in the back cab or otherwise hiding unless they need to do so for their own safety. Quite a few of them (more likely in the South than the North) like to encourage their own job's demise at times by preferring to sit in the cab reading the paper than actually do their job properly.

Glad we agree about the guard/conductors role being more effective with the doors being controlled by the driver.

Northern will have sent their spies on all the trains and observed those guards/conductors who do hide in the cab, drinking coffee, reading the paper, on the phone etc... neglecting their duties to check tickets.

I’m not saying all guards/conductors behave like this but it isn’t as rare as some would have you believe.

I would much rather see the guard/conductor out in the carriage doing their main job which is ensuring the safety of the train, talking to passengers, checking and selling tickets, assisting passengers on/off the train.

Maybe at busy Interchange stations the guard could still give two on the buzzer at a door panel, rather than the back of the cab to indicate to the driver everything is clear and good to go.

Driver acknowledges and closes all doors and off you go.

Guard/conductor carriers on with their duties of assisting/checking/selling tickets.

What I don’t agree with his DOO trains with other member of staff onboard, and I fully support the guards/conductors in this stance, but any argument about them operating doors is futile and should be handed over to the driver.

With the guard/conductor doing his current duties minus the doors.

 

[Bromley boy]

What I do think is that guards should not be in the back cab or otherwise hiding unless they need to do so for their own safety. Quite a few of them (more likely in the South than the North) like to encourage their own job's demise at times by preferring to sit in the cab reading the paper than actually do their job properly.

This is a very valid point.

 

[Moonshot]

This is a very valid point.

Fully agree myself. Time and time again I see comments on here on this forum about that. The job itself is very easy, but way too many take liberties anyway and spoil it for the ones who actually get " in the mix " with the passengers. The role really does need to evolve into a far more customer service orientated position.

 

[Eric]

Fully agree myself. Time and time again I see comments on here on this forum about that. The job itself is very easy, but way too many take liberties anyway and spoil it for the ones who actually get " in the mix " with the passengers. The role really does need to evolve into a far more customer service orientated position.

Rather than sit in the back cab doing FA and using the "I've got to operate the doors" line as an excuse.

 

[driver_m]

Let's be honest, who IS going to agree with the guard hiding in the back? No one... Every time I travel pass on another TOCs train (or ours for that matter) and they don't go through, I just think you're letting your colleagues down, AND those of us who support you in your post. However, the flip side of this are the late night trains, the football runs, the trains that are that overloaded they can't get through. Don't make out as if they're all the same when they're not. There's no help to back them up, you may even have seen one of my Euston colleagues in the news recently getting assaulted. Where are the managers at those times? Or BTP, or the Security Guards to support them?

As for Moonshot saying it's all about the doors, has he swallowed the right wing media whole? He's doing his own job a disservice, and seeing as he's an East Side Guard where they'd charge their own kids full fare no Priv if they could, then I feel you should probably listen to the West Side staff on this forum instead of Lord Haw Haw over there. I already open and close doors. Do I have Driver Only? Only on ECS. Is it the best method of work? IMO Yes. Best of both worlds. Punters get looked after, revenue gets collected, I can concentrate on what's in front, not behind, and the belt and braces approach we have works well.

 

[Kite159]

Sorry if already mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the timetables for Saturday have been put up at the bottom of this page (https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike)

 

[Tomnick]

I don’t understand why we’re having this dispute. Forgive my ignorance but the driver should do the doors full stop. Just like it used to happen with the old style buses that conductors.

A train isn't a bus. A bus driver doesn't have to check anything up to 24 sets of doors over the length of a train potentially exceeding 200m, where any last-minute runners will be potentially out of sight rather than trying to board at the immediately adjacent door. A bus driver doesn't have to worry about not only checking that the signal's cleared for him, but also accounting for the risks of a wrong route set, a correct but unusual low-speed diverging route, starting on a single yellow. There's a good debate to be had, but please don't bring it down to the level of making simple comparisons with buses.

 

[js1000]

Let's be honest, who IS going to agree with the guard hiding in the back? No one... Every time I travel pass on another TOCs train (or ours for that matter) and they don't go through, I just think you're letting your colleagues down, AND those of us who support you in your post. However, the flip side of this are the late night trains, the football runs, the trains that are that overloaded they can't get through. Don't make out as if they're all the same when they're not. There's no help to back them up, you may even have seen one of my Euston colleagues in the news recently getting assaulted. Where are the managers at those times? Or BTP, or the Security Guards to support them?

As for Moonshot saying it's all about the doors, has he swallowed the right wing media whole? He's doing his own job a disservice, and seeing as he's an East Side Guard where they'd charge their own kids full fare no Priv if they could, then I feel you should probably listen to the West Side staff on this forum instead of Lord Haw Haw over there. I already open and close doors. Do I have Driver Only? Only on ECS. Is it the best method of work? IMO Yes. Best of both worlds. Punters get looked after, revenue gets collected, I can concentrate on what's in front, not behind, and the belt and braces approach we have works well.

There are two instances where the guard shouldn't really check tickets.

1. If the train is running 10 minutes late. This can hold up the doors and delay the train even more if the guard is processing a fare.

2. After 10/11 o'clock in the evening. Their responsibility basically becomes to ensure any drunks get on and get off the train safely. Also avoids the potentially awkward issue of someone who has no money but is getting the last train home. Any guard who kicks them off and then finds they've drowned in a nearby canal or river or decided to jump onto the tracks the next morning will never forgive him/her-self.

If there's one service you can give the benefit of the doubt or to avoid argument it's the last train home - for the guard's safety and others.

 

[CN75]

There are two instances where the guard shouldn't really check tickets.

1. If the train is running 10 minutes late. This can hold up the doors and delay the train even more if the guard is processing a fare.

2. After 10/11 o'clock in the evening. Their responsibility basically becomes to ensure any drunks get on and get off the train safely. Also avoids the potentially awkward issue of someone who has no money but is getting the last train home. Any guard who kicks them off and then finds they've drowned in a nearby canal or river or decided to jump onto the tracks the next morning will never forgive him/her-self.

If there's one service you can give the benefit of the doubt or to avoid argument it's the last train home - for the guard's safety and others.

Instance 1 is why the guard should not be operating the doors when the driver can do it safely. This would allow the guard to continue to perform a useful on board purpose rather than stand at the doors ready to pounce.

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry if already mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the timetables for Saturday have been put up at the bottom of this page (https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike)

Normanton now appears to have a strike service !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Instance 1 is why the guard should not be operating the doors when the driver can do it safely. This would allow the guard to continue to perform a useful on board purpose rather than stand at the doors ready to pounce.

One thing of note is that people keep making points about 24 doors on a 12-car South East service.

What we're talking about here is 4 or 6 doors on a 2 or 3-car Northern local service (8 on the EMUs?). Quite different. With only 4-8 doors to show, you can have an excellent quality, large, colour display of the side of the train, which on a curved platform is better than the guard will get. You could even consider adding interior CCTV so you would, unlike a guard, see if someone was approaching the doors from the inside to try to leave.

 

[LowLevel]

I do always find the inane mutterings from people who don't do the job irritating.

Why wouldn't you check tickets on trains late at night? You don't have to throw off fare evaders. I've done it for years and never had a problem. You get as many scum float about in the day time. There are only a handful of trains where I don't do revenue duties and they are purely the ones where we have BTP refusing access to ticketless travellers at the door. Ticket machines subsequently appearing on board have been known to cause assaults when their aggrieved friends on board see tickets being sold on the train.

I do revenue on late trains out of Liverpool, Nottingham, Manchester, Sheffield, Derby and many other cities and rarely have any more problems than usual. The punters may be loud and up for a bit of banter but they're fine.

If you're really bothered you can patrol anyway with 'anyone need tickets' and take cash as it's handed to you in a non confrontational way.

Next thing. The back cab. I am entitled to go in there. I don't live in there. On busy pay trains I often don't set foot in there except to make announcements. We have door controls throughout the train. If however I need to make a phone call, fill in a report, or eat my lunch for 10 minutes then yes, on appropriate services I may disappear for a short time. I have to spend anywhere up to 6.5 hours on trains without drinking water supplies working local services that run for up to 60 miles in each direction.

Finally having a guard march up and down a train permanently is a waste of time. You get in the way. A lot of work is on unmanned stations positioning bikes etc so you have to go to the doors anyway. You can't check easily check or sell tickets without getting in the way when people are boarding and alighting.

There really is a detachment from common sense and reality when posting these things. Nothing is black and white as implied. It's all shades of grey.

I like to think I'm a good example of working practice and I do both paytrains and long distance. I've got a bit of experience as well. How I work bears little resemblance to our commentators here.