For sale: Britain's only high speed railway

[Mojo]

From BBC News: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8301787.stm

Gordon Brown is to announce the sale of £16bn-worth of assets by the government in a bid to shore up public finances.

The prime minister will give details of initial sales that could raise £3bn - including the Tote, the Dartford crossing and the student loan book.

He will make the announcement in a speech on Monday, setting out an alternative to the immediate spending cuts proposed by the Conservatives.

Mr Brown will say premature cuts risk "snuffing out" the economic recovery.

"We need a deficit reduction plan that supports growth and jobs not one that snuffs out recovery before it has started," the prime minister will say.

The plan is to sell a "portfolio of non-financial assets" held by Whitehall and local authorities over the next two years.

They will include the Tote, Dartford crossing, the student loan book, the Channel Tunnel rail link and - having protected national security - the government's stake in URENCO.

The funds raised will help finance new capital investment and pay down debt, Mr Brown will say.

Looks like he's getting desperate now...

 

[Lampshade]

*Thump* *Thump* *Thump*

Get this idiot out of Number 10

 

[nedchester]

*Thump* *Thump* *Thump*

Get this idiot out of Number 10

For another idiot to take his place!

 

[bengley]

If cameron gets in, it will almost definitely get sold along with the NHS and the broccoli in that field over there.

 

[me123]

If cameron gets in, it will almost definitely get sold along with the NHS and the broccoli in that field over there.

No, we all know the NHS isn't going to be sold off, or privatised. It will be done in a stealthy manner, with Westminster politicians denying that they are doing so until the job is done.

The Student Loans worry me more than CTRL. The system (across the UK) isn't great, but it's a lifeline service for many of my colleagues and I worry that the sale of this could be catastrophic for English students across the UK.

 

[gingerheid]

I thought they'd already sold off the bottom of the barrel, but apparently not.

 

[Mojo]

I think they should privatise the Highways Agency, that would bring in a fair chunk.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/t...ectors/banking_and_finance/article6814923.ece

 

[gingerheid]

I think they found out what happens if they suggest road tolls before; it was a lot of people that signed that petition; enough to take any part out of office.

 

[me123]

Are they serious? Anyone who's been on the M8, M80, M74, M77, M9... will know that tolls are ludicrous. Whilst these are Scottish motorways (and hence a devolved issue), these examples are irrelevant, but I'm sure the English motorways are just as bad, if not worse, in places! It's often bad enough getting on a motorway; the tolls just make this worse. Indeed, we've just got rid of all tolls in Scotland, so it would be retrograde progress.

 

[Lampshade]

I can see the next election being similar to 1992, better the devil you know and all that.

 

[Oswyntail]

This is the intellectual giant, saviour of world economics, who, alone in Western Civilisation, saw the value of selling most of the country's gold reserves at a historically low price. Now he is seeking to sell other national assets as a fire-sale, at a time when available cash will dictate low prices, and when the obvious desperation of the vendor will also push prices down. The family silver was sold years ago - now he's down to selling off the family pets as a circus act.

 

[Old Timer]

Chaps,

Please do check your facts first before making yourselves look foolish, or at least be brave enough to admit to being a rose-tinted spectacle Labour supporter first.

Pretty much ALL of our Public Services have already been sold off or passed out under PPP/PFI deals that have financially benefitted Labour donors and supporters to the disadvantage of the taxpayer, why even the buildings that the Inland Revenue (now more commonly known as "Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs") use have been sold off to a Company which has based itself in the Caymen Islands........ for tax avoidance purposes.

So please no crocodile tears about the NHS, and the Conservatives destroying our public services.

Even large parts of the MOD have been Privatised, and if you check the records you will find that the greatest ever chunk of Privatisation of our public services has been carried out by Labour since 1994.

At the moment there is a hiatus of Labour MPs chasing around after jobs in the very Sectors they have already Privatised.

 

[fgwrich]

No, we all know the NHS isn't going to be sold off, or privatised. It will be done in a stealthy manner, with Westminster politicians denying that they are doing so until the job is done.

The Student Loans worry me more than CTRL. The system (across the UK) isn't great, but it's a lifeline service for many of my colleagues and I worry that the sale of this could be catastrophic for English students across the UK.

That my University Plans hitting the ice then:roll:

Shall be intersting to see what happens about the CTRL...I know that DB has been keenly interested in any part of the CTRL so perhaps we might finnaly see a daily London to Frankfurt service?

But before that sounds like i support any of this...Far From It! This goverments getting far to despirate and ludicras now...But what worrys me just as much is the tory toffs...Personally since Boris came into power in london, things have got worse, so how can the tories even think they can run the entire country if they cant even run LUL without hinging on PFI...

And No...I dont support anyone at this current time, certainly not labour or conservatives...but i am liking some of the lib dems policies...

Mellow Yellow...

:roll:

God help this country what ever happens though...

 

[Aictos]

Thank you OT, Labour had a golden chance to keep the former Connex franchises nationalised but were more concerned about re franchising it again, same goes for GNER - Labour could easily have taken it back and renationalised it and keep these routes as benchmarks for the rest of the UK railways.

Indeed, when in oppostion Labour's words were "When we come to power, we will renationalise the railways for the UK public" but instead do a complete u-turn and continue the privatisation process.

PPP is yet another privatisation scheme thought up not by the Conservatives but by Labour yet if anything it's the Conservatives who get the moniker of being the nasty party and nothing gets said about Labour!

Metronet anyone!

The idea that Labour is the party for the workers is alien to me, the old Labour of the 60s and 70s might have been but the current Labour party is more for the millionaires nowadays then it's supposed to be.

 

[jon0844]

I'm sure I read somewhere else that Labour has more millionaires than Conservative.. and even the Lib Dems have a few!

I guess Gordon is desperate to try and get some cash to offer some incentives to voters (sorry, bribes) but he's deluded if he thinks he can win next year.

 

[Old Timer]

...But what worrys me just as much is the tory toffs...Personally since Boris came into power in london, things have got worse, so how can the tories even think they can run the entire country if they cant even run LUL without hinging on PFI......

Errr, a couple of points.

Firstly the LUL PFI was introduced under LABOUR and is absolutely nothing to do with the Conservatives. Having been out of power since 1997 they have had no influence on Railway privatisation or the mad PPP/PFI Schemes run by Labour.

None of the LUL Schemes stack up.

The LUL Metronet PFI was a complete disaster, which EVERYONE warned Labour would be the case, however as usual Brown did not listen, so you cannot hang that one on the Conservatives.

The underlying reason for the failure of the Metronet Consortium was that grandiose and unachieveable Political committments were made without any understanding of the financial implications. Everything was going to be renewed and improved, and millions of £ were spent at a time whern there were no accurate records of how much infrastructure was owned or its condition. Money was invested when it should have been used to undertake maintenance, and when the inevitable financial crisis came, it was because more work had been instructed that there was money available for.

For example one LUL line had NO records as to the condition of its track stressing on the open line sections, so as the summer temperatures started to soar, emergency speed restrictions had to be imposed, whilst a massive programme of overnight re-stressing, and stress testing was carried out.

In the final analysis it was the stations Civils and Stations Contracts which broke the back of the camel.


As for the Conservatives being the party of Toffs, this is just another cynical and untrue Labour smear. I would suggest you compare the background of the two Cabinets, and if you do so you will find a much greater percentage of Labour Ministers come from "toff" and "red brick" backgrounds compared to the Conservatives.

I imagine you listened to, and believed that vicious and disingenuous "speech" by Harriet Harman, daughter of an Earl. As usual it was very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black, made with spite and bile in a failed attempt to brand the Conservatives as the party of the Rich, made more laughable by the person who delivered it coming from the very same privileged background that she was denouncing.

Figures will show that in actual fact Labour have by far increased the wealthy and the rich, whilst at the same time as taxing the poor at up to a 98% (marginal) tax rate.

Labour's legacy now includes the number of pensioners living in poverty up by 100,000, the 10p tax rate abolished to pay for even more spending, tax rises for working people set for after the election, and massive cuts secretly planned whilst they were being denied on TV by Brown

 

[EM2]

And the legacy of the previous Conservative government was the near ruin of industries like manufacturing and mining, almost total lack of investment in the railways, unemployment tripling under Thatcher and 30% of children living under the poverty line under Major.

 

[Old Timer]

Well we now have :-

£22,500 of debt for every child born in Britain

The highest proportion of children living in workless households anywhere in Europe

The lowest level of social mobility in the developed world

One in six young people neither earning nor learning

5 million people on out-of –work benefits

If you bother to look at the economic situation in 1979, firstly the UK was technically bankrupt, only kept liquid through money lent by the IMF. The economic actions put in place in 1979/80 were a REQUIREMENT of the IMF and would have been implemented by Labour had they not lost the Election.

As for Industry well perhaps you will explain why the public chose to buy cheaper foreign (subsidised) goods over the more expensive UK produced goods ? Because that is what killed off UK manufacturing. You cannot sell something that is more expensive than anyone else, and remain in business.

The vast majority mines were closed either because they were worked out, or as a result of damage caused by Scargill and the NUMs refusal to allow maintenance teams to go into the pits during the Miners Strike.

Originally two worked out pits were earmarked for closure. Scargill demanded that the pits were not closed and further insisted that there would be no redundnacies, knowing that this was an impossible committment.

In any case whilst Scargill was fighting his Left Wing battle, his idealogical Left Wing brothers were flooding the UK with cheap imported coal, which was so cheap that UK coal could not have been mined for that price.

The Miners Strike was thus Political and unsupportable by any Governmment. If you check up, you will find that Kim Howells who was a Welsh NUM official during the Strike, and since then a Labour Government Minister, states that a Labour Government would have done exactly what the Conservative Government did, because nobody could guarantee that miners jobs would not be lost.

Incidentally it would do you well to research how many mines have been closed under Labour since 1997. You will find considerably more miners out of work under Labour.

The final outcome of course has been the massive reduction in men made to work in an environment where they inevitably caught pnuemoconiosis, and other occupational diseases. Surely you are not wishing that this should have carried on ?

 

[Oswyntail]

...., almost total lack of investment in the railways, .....

Another urban myth. Sure there was the dreadful hiatus on ordering new rolling stock towards the end of the Tories, but look at the construction dates of the older locomotives and units still operating today, and you will see that there was fairly substantial investment in that area going on until the early 90s. Add to that major schemes like the ECML wiring if you want to look at growth. Then throw in the fact that standard renewals and repairs were carrying on throughout until they were cut back after 1997. I think you will find that the investment profile is comparable with the last few years, and a lot better than the early years of Labour control.

 

[Mojo]

Another urban myth.

Indeed, most of the urban rail networks in PTE areas had their ultimate revival during the Conservative years.

Lets have look at major public transport schemes started (either with funding or legislation) under the Conservatives:
Tyne & Wear Metro phase 2
Manchester Metrolink phases 1 & 2
Sheffield Supertram
Midland Metro
Docklands Light Railway
Jubilee line extension
Channel Tunnel
Channel Tunnel Rail Link (High Speed 1)
Croydon Tramlink

and New Labour:
Cambridgeshire Guided Busway [that nobody wants]
Nottingham Express Transit

I concede that there were plenty of policy disasters under the Conservatives, but many of them were considered appropriate for the time, and to say that the railways were starved of investment isn't true. Take a look at the excellent suburban system here in Birmingham and then look at all these LRT schemes that are making an incredible difference.

 

[bengley]

I'm not just talking about trains here. If Cameron gets in, this country has had it.

 

[JustinStacey.x]

Let me guess - the majority of people in this thread sticking up for conservatives are not working class then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not just talking about trains here. If Cameron gets in, this country has had it.

Thank you.

 

[EM2]

Let me guess - the majority of people in this thread sticking up for conservatives are not working class then.

That's what I was wondering. I said this elsewhere but anyway:
'I have lived under a Labour government, a Conservative government and a New Labour government and as a 40-year-old working-class married man, I would rather live under New Labour than the Tories.'

 

[jon0844]

I don't get it. New Labour inherited a strong (and growing) economy and Tony Blair was wise enough to continue many Tory policies - and many now argue he took things even further.

Surely new Labour was more Conservative than old Labour? If you are working class, wouldn't you be looking for an all-new 'old' Labour party than what we have now?

Whoever gets in this time around is certainly NOT going to inherit anything good. I feel sorry for whoever does win (not Labour, obviously), I really do.

 

[mrcheek]

And the legacy of the previous Conservative government was the near ruin of industries like manufacturing and mining, almost total lack of investment in the railways, unemployment tripling under Thatcher and 30% of children living under the poverty line under Major.

No, manufacturing and mining were destroyed in the 70s by Labour and the unions. Thatcher merely cut off their life support system which was costing the country millions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Let me guess - the majority of people in this thread sticking up for conservatives are not working class then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thank you.

I am working class and proud of it. I am also proud to be a Conservative. Perhaps you could just say that despite being working class, I am quite intelligent!

 

[gingerheid]

I'm not sure what anyone thinks New Labour are supposed to have done for the working class. The only people that have anything to thank them for are sections of the elite + the not working class.

 

[EM2]

I'm not sure what anyone thinks New Labour are supposed to have done for the working class. The only people that have anything to thank them for are sections of the elite + the not working class.

The minimum wage for a start. Despite dire Conservative warnings that it would send unemployment rocketing, it's been such a success that the Conservatives now support it.

 

[devon_metro]

The minimum wage for a start. Despite dire Conservative warnings that it would send unemployment rocketing, it's been such a success that the Conservatives now support it.

And the ridicilous situation where it is often better to live on the dole than work is a success too?

Rent paid, Council tax paid, what would a hard working person do to deserve such a thing whilst the layabouts get it all paid for free. Labour has created a nanny state where people either take advantage or have no initiative to find work.

Oh well, the benefits will pay it! Labour is a soft touch, whats needed is to shake this country up and make a few changes... Gordon certainly will not be getting my X in May.

 

[jon0844]

May? I reckon he'll be hanging on until the last second (June) at this rate!

If he had any decency, he'd give up now and call the election early and put himself and everyone else out of their misery.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Indeed, most of the urban rail networks in PTE areas had their ultimate revival during the Conservative years.

Lets have look at major public transport schemes started (either with funding or legislation) under the Conservatives:
Tyne & Wear Metro phase 2
Manchester Metrolink phases 1 & 2
Sheffield Supertram
Midland Metro
Docklands Light Railway
Jubilee line extension
Channel Tunnel
Channel Tunnel Rail Link (High Speed 1)
Croydon Tramlink

Paid for and planned by labour run councils / PTEs. The channel tunnel was privately financed (Maggie wanted a road tunnel). The CTRL should have opened in 1994 but it was the Tories that postponed it. Then there is Crossrail, Intercity 250. The WCRM was specified by DofT & Railtrack in the mid-90s under a Tory government, the one with 140mph trains, moving block signals:roll:

Would you care to list all the lines closed under the Tories? After all, the £300 million Airdrie - Bathgate link is to reopen a line closed in 1982! The worst ever year for the railways was 1983.