Is Eurostar a Wasted Opportunity?

[Bletchleyite]

they weren't allowed, open, through the security. You had to bin them.

You aren't allowed coffees etc because they might spill inside the X-ray machine. You are allowed properly closed bottles such as bottles of water, for example.

 

[Bromley boy]

better use of the Kent stations to relieve St Pancras congestion, timetable revisions to ensure a more reliable set of peak departures from Paris... I’m sure others will find a few, just not those hinted at here.

Are the e320 sets able to call at Ashford Intl. yet?

 

[DarloRich]

You aren't allowed coffees etc because they might spill inside the X-ray machine. You are allowed properly closed bottles such as bottles of water, for example.

I had an open bottle of water with a lid. I was told to bin it or down it

 

[EM2]

they weren't allowed, open, through the security. You had to bin them.

Bottles have to be sealed, but coffee etc. is OK. They get put in a special 'cup holder' when they go through the X-ray.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had an open bottle of water with a lid. I was told to bin it or down it

That's a change to the rules, then, I've taken my tap water bottles through.

You are DEFINITELY allowed completely unopened, sealed bottles of liquid.

 

[EM2]

Are the e320 sets able to call at Ashford Intl. yet?

Nope. And currently no definite date as to when they can.

 

[DarloRich]

Bottles have to be sealed, but coffee etc. is OK. They get put in a special 'cup holder' when they go through the X-ray.

My travelling companion was told to bin his tea at the same time . I suspected that was wrong but couldn't be rsed to argue as it was early and i had a match to get to and beer to drink!

That's a change to the rules, then, I've taken my tap water bottles through.

You are DEFINITELY allowed completely unopened, sealed bottles of liquid.

Agreed

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

London to Paris or Brussels by Eurostar takes just over 2 hours - comparable to London-Manchester or London-Leeds journey times, and the distance as-the-crow-flies isn't that much further.

I think you've gotten your distances wrong. London to Manchester is around 186 miles (300 kilometres), compared to the LGV Nord in France which runs from Paris to Calais at 333 kilometres (207 miles). So the distance on one side of the channel is already greater, not including the 50 kilometres (31 miles) through the tunnel itself, nor the 108 kilometres (67 miles) from the tunnel portal to St. Pancras. Give or take a few you have a journey of about 186 miles from Euston to Manchester compared to a journey of 305 miles (490 kilometres) from London to Paris. To add to this, the stock with Eurostar is faster, and given that they run on designated high-speed tracks for the majority of their journey while the Pendolino runs on a mixed-traffic railway at a lower speed, I don't think it's a fair comparison.

If I try and book to travel the next day, the fares for a return journey limited to a particular train are eye-watering even by UK rail standards - sometimes up to £300ish for a return journey, even on a standard ticket (though it gets a lot cheaper and much more comparable with UK fares if I book weeks in a advance).

The whole point is to try and get people to book in advance really. I remember when Nick Hewer interviewed a manager at Virgin Trains, and apparently it's all done in an attempt to spread out the demand as best as they could. Not sure how well it would apply to Eurostar in this case, but still.

A very few trains stop at Calais, which at an hour out from London ought to be commutable (at least before Brexit), yet there seems to have been absolutely zero attempt to tempt anyone to use Eurostar to commute (in contrast to the SouthEastern HS2 trains which travel a similar distance and rely on commuters). Yes, I realise there wouldn't be a huge Calais-London commuter market, but if it was promoted, there'd be some market, which would add to the numbers on trains.

Some potential market doesn't sound promising, especially if the market isn't really, and wouldn't really be huge. Eurostar wasn't really set up as a commuter service either, it was really more of an international railway transport link connecting major European cities. It is also an open-access operator, and such it doesn't really have any commitments to government to provide commuter services, which it won't so long as there isn't the demand there. Southeastern on the other hand does have franchise commitments and is a commuter TOC. In regards to similar distance covered, again I think you just have to look at how far each train travels on a single journey. Class 395s cover less distance than 373s/4s in a single run.

Then there's what look to me like absurd check-in times, when you'd have thought all you basically have to do is show your passport, have a baggage check, and jump on the train: According to the website, 30 minutes unless you 'buy' a shorter time by getting an ultra-expensive Business Premier ticket.

International transport procedure. Nothing unusual there, and in fact when I travelled Eurostar I found it to be very reasonable check-in time. With 900 potential passengers I'd say it was great in fact. I'd much rather check in for them than for a plane. Just think about it too, is thirty minutes really a long time?

This all gives me the impression of a company that's doing its utmost to put people off from using its trains. Indeed a good part of why I've never travelled on Eurostar - is that it looks to me such a hassle and so expensive in comparison to any UK train. Is my impression unreasonable?

Yes, I'd say it's unreasonable, not for any complex reasons either, but just simple logic. Even if I am completely wrong on everything I have said and will say further, I can confidently say without doubt that Eurostar is not trying to put people off using it's trains. No company, private, public, state-owned etc., with any sense will try to put people off using it's products. I promise you, as someone whose used Eurostar, I would absolutely do it again. In fact, if I had to travel from Liverpool to Amsterdam, I'd prefer the train to the plane. So if they are trying to put people off using trains, they're doing a bad job at it.

It may look like a hassle, but I promise you that airline check-in is much worse than Eurostar, and it's prices compared to other TOCS probably seem more reasonable with it's operating cost. Eurostar trains are some of the most technologically advanced in the world, running over several different signalling systems. Not to mention, the labour costs are higher since Eurostar drivers are the highest paid in the country, since they're expected to know the rule book of several countries along with being multilingual. That's just one role too, but the point is made that Eurostar might be as expensive as some local TOCs, but it's got more to deal with in some ways too. No other TOC runs over international borders, something that Eurostar does every day.

EDIT: Okay I realise now that the OP originally said "as the crow flies" to mention the distance between London and Paris. In actually it says London to Paris is 344 kilometres (214 miles) and London to Manchester is 262 kilometres (162 miles). But having said that, using the "as the crow flies" method is still not really a fair method given trains don't travel in that direction and often times do deviate from a straight course. For a start, the LGV Nord takes a big cutting corner at Lille and such, so I don't think measuring in a crow flies method is fair for any rail travel distances.

 

[Bromley boy]

Nope. And currently no definite date as to when they can.

Ta.

Any idea what the hold up is? They’ve been in service for, what, a couple of years now?

 

[Esker-pades]

Ta.

Any idea what the hold up is? They’ve been in service for, what, a couple of years now?

Most likely platform clearance.

 

[radamfi]

Nonetheless, picking up on fares, “Turn up and go” fares on Virgin are just as expensive, if not more than E*’s. Compare an on the day anytime 1st return at £484 London-Manchester to a Business Premier £490 London-Paris. The latter ticket would mean that even if you showed up 2 MONTHS LATE for your train, you would still get a seat on the next available train, with a hot meal, champagne, a guaranteed seat reservation, access to a very decent lounge and discounts to a handful of attractions across the network - to me, that’s the right proposition to attract and retain an affluent business traveller who relies on flexibility.

At least you can avoid the Anytime fares on Virgin by going off-peak. There is no off-peak opportunity on Eurostar and travelling on any train in the next day (or even sometimes the next few days) usually costs in the region of £190 one-way, which is out of the reach of almost all leisure travellers. Before Eurostar the rail-sea-rail journey was very affordable and there were more ferry routes available, for example Dover to Oostende. The only really affordable way of crossing the Channel at short notice is now the coach. You can still buy separate train and ferry tickets but it is a lot less convenient and more expensive than it was, especially for going to Belgium.

 

[mrmartin]

Apparently only 60% of the paths are used through the channel tunnel - not sure how true this is?

 

[EM2]

Ta.

Any idea what the hold up is? They’ve been in service for, what, a couple of years now?

Something to do with the interaction of the signalling and on-board electronics. I don't quite understand it tbh, nor why it's not an issue at St Pancras and Ebbsfleet.

 

[Bromley boy]

Something to do with the interaction of the signalling and on-board electronics. I don't quite understand it tbh, nor why it's not an issue at St Pancras and Ebbsfleet.

Typical railway.

 

[sprunt]

Even accepting that it's security theatre, what are the stated reasons for the full bag x-ray, specifically what is supposedly different about catching a train to Paris from catching one to Nottingham? Is it that an attack is considered more likely on a higher profile service, rescue and recovery would be more difficult in the middle of a 25 mile tunnel, or something else?

 

[Bletchleyite]

an attack is considered more likely on a higher profile service

Yes, that. It was about Irish terrorism back then - but would *you* sign off removing it?

 

[cle]

Amsterdam is only just beginning. They don’t even have the security/customs check in place on the inbound services, and they’ve started at 2 trains per day. Once that infrastructure is built, they will want ROI so I’d expect to see higher frequencies pretty quickly.

Rotterdam is underrated in my opinion and likely to be very popular for business (Shell next door in The Hague and Unilever alone will be big) and for Dutch visitors to London too. It’s more populous than Amsterdam after all. Less tourist appeal of course (although I think it is very cool and impressive personally).

I see no need for Antwerp and Schipol at the moment, if they want to keep the journey times at a minimum, same for stops on the Brussels leg. No idea if Netherlands to Lille is worth pursuing, and the outbound Ebbsfleet/Ashford demand, but with higher frequencies they can test those out in future.

And of course, the elephant in the room with Eurostar is the potential decline in future business traffic to Brussels (except the lawyers).

 

[Aictos]

Whenever I've travelled between London and Paris, I've always gone with Eurostar for the simple reason that compared to a airport it is stress free and it doesn't take long to check in and go though the security checks.

It's fast, reliable and is a decent service with great connections at Gare du Nord, Brussels Midi, London St Pancras Int and soon to be Amsterdam Central so I can't see Eurostar going anytime soon.

 

[mrmartin]

Amsterdam is only just beginning. They don’t even have the security/customs check in place on the inbound services, and they’ve started at 2 trains per day. Once that infrastructure is built, they will want ROI so I’d expect to see higher frequencies pretty quickly.

Rotterdam is underrated in my opinion and likely to be very popular for business (Shell next door in The Hague and Unilever alone will be big) and for Dutch visitors to London too. It’s more populous than Amsterdam after all. Less tourist appeal of course (although I think it is very cool and impressive personally).

I see no need for Antwerp and Schipol at the moment, if they want to keep the journey times at a minimum, same for stops on the Brussels leg. No idea if Netherlands to Lille is worth pursuing, and the outbound Ebbsfleet/Ashford demand, but with higher frequencies they can test those out in future.

And of course, the elephant in the room with Eurostar is the potential decline in future business traffic to Brussels (except the lawyers).

Do they have spare trains to run these additional services though?

 

[radamfi]

No idea if Netherlands to Lille is worth pursuing

Thalys already run Amsterdam to Lille direct.

 

[LLivery]

Eurostar are clearly doing something right. That said, it's not a good as it could be. St Pancras & Eurostar have enormous potential, which is being wasted, but as said already, with the border/baggage screening it's suppressed. I'm under no doubt The Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland would've been direct and reasonably frequently years ago if it were different.

One of the reasons that the UK (plus Ireland, Denmark and some others) is not in Schengen is that we are islands or mostly so. That makes border controls much more effective than for countries with major land borders, where circumventing the controls is quite easy.


Plus relying on an immigration officer in say Greece to check that someone is fully eligible to enter the UK has its difficulties. Given the current pore-occupation with firm immigration controls I see no chance of the UK joining Schengen. Schengen itself has looked rather wobbly in the past year or so with some participating countries exercising their limited rights to reintroduce some border controls. In certain circumstances it might even be abolished.

Demark is definitely in Schengen, just not the Euro. The only Islands not part of Schengen is Ireland, the UK & Cyprus. The latter will join and for Ireland, well no one knows what exactly it will be after Brexit. Then there's Iceland, which like Norway & Switzerland is in Schengen but not the EU.

I agree it's been wobbly over the last year, but I think it will be overcome.

 

[sprunt]

Rotterdam is underrated in my opinion and likely to be very popular for business (Shell next door in The Hague and Unilever alone will be big) and for Dutch visitors to London too. It’s more populous than Amsterdam after all. Less tourist appeal of course (although I think it is very cool and impressive personally).

Also, Miniworld! Rotterdam is an excellent city.

 

[cle]

Thalys already run Amsterdam to Lille direct.

How often? Ran fast from Paris to Brussels whenever I’ve taken it.

 

[radamfi]

How often? Ran fast from Paris to Brussels whenever I’ve taken it.

Twice a day.

 

[eaet]

I’d also make the comment that people wouldn’t wake up and rationally go “hmm I want to go to the capital city of another country today so I will because it’s only a few hours on the train” and expect to do so without paying £££ for it.

I don't disagree with the thrust of your overall argument, but I don't think people in mainland Europe would think that strange

 

[island]

That's a change to the rules, then, I've taken my tap water bottles through.

You are DEFINITELY allowed completely unopened, sealed bottles of liquid.

I took a half full bottle of Coke Zero on the Eurostar this morning. It’s definitely allowed.

I can only speculate DarloRich was travelling on a day that services had been declared dry owing to football travellers or similar – in which case they do only allow soft drinks through if they are full and sealed, to prevent concealment of alcohol.

 

[island]

Something to do with the interaction of the signalling and on-board electronics. I don't quite understand it tbh, nor why it's not an issue at St Pancras and Ebbsfleet.

I think Ashford area on HS1 still uses TPWS instead of KVB and the 374s don’t like it.

 

[CMS]

Are the e320 sets able to call at Ashford Intl. yet?

No, still not. It seems that this will be no quick fix as on the Eurostar website's "travel updates" section they ave actually published an Ashford provisional timetable until 30/09 with ALL Ashford to Brussels stops removed and many trains stopping at Ebbsfleet instead.

At least you can avoid the Anytime fares on Virgin by going off-peak. There is no off-peak opportunity on Eurostar and travelling on any train in the next day (or even sometimes the next few days) usually costs in the region of £190 one-way, which is out of the reach of almost all leisure travellers. Before Eurostar the rail-sea-rail journey was very affordable and there were more ferry routes available, for example Dover to Oostende. The only really affordable way of crossing the Channel at short notice is now the coach. You can still buy separate train and ferry tickets but it is a lot less convenient and more expensive than it was, especially for going to Belgium.

Eurostar Snap (similar to TGV Pop) is very popular and you can get relatively cheap non-flexible fares for the upcoming few weeks/month. Again, I would say that most Eurostar traffic do not think "I ought to hop over on the Eurostar later today/tomorrow", unless it's for business or family reasons. Leisure travellers can book in advance and get reasonable fares. Dover to Oostende is not really comparable to London to Paris, but I could see the 'political' argument for more Kent to Hauts-de-France journey opportunities.

Rotterdam is underrated in my opinion and likely to be very popular for business (Shell next door in The Hague and Unilever alone will be big) and for Dutch visitors to London too. It’s more populous than Amsterdam after all. Less tourist appeal of course (although I think it is very cool and impressive personally).

I see no need for Antwerp and Schipol at the moment, if they want to keep the journey times at a minimum, same for stops on the Brussels leg. No idea if Netherlands to Lille is worth pursuing, and the outbound Ebbsfleet/Ashford demand, but with higher frequencies they can test those out in future.

Couldn't agree more! I seem to remember that Thalys said it has been selling just as many tickets to Rotterdam than to Amsterdam, it also has great connectivity to other NL destinations, particularly The Hague, Utrecht and Breda. All of these are business hubs and developing their leisure markets. In terms of Antwerp and Schiphol, I think they could be served in the event that the current border issues are resolved and more services can be added.

I don't disagree with the thrust of your overall argument, but I don't think people in mainland Europe would think that strange

Indeed! It's highly plausible in the Schengen zone in particular.

I think it is very right to argue in favour of some sort of 'clockface' timetable. Surely people will want to be able to depart at, say, 07:00 and on the hour until 20:00 with two additions at 07:04 and 18:04 to satisfy capacity and to allow those 07:00 and 18:00 'Express' trains to run fast whilst the ones behind pick people up at Ebbsfleet?

Same for Brussels, what of everything sodding off from London at 06:30, 08:30, 10:30, 12:30, 14:30, 16:30, 18:30 and 20:30? Add an 08:34 Brussels in behind the 08:30 Amsterdam and a 17:30 Amsterdam fast?

And that way, surely, you can use the gaps at 07:30 / 09:30 / 11:30 / 13:30 / 15:30 for any other trains you want to run like Bourg St Maurice, Avignon, Marne la Vallee...

I see what you mean but it doesn't work. What currently happens is very close to what you mention though (i.e. majority of Brussels departures departing at the start of the odd hour, Paris departures hourly).

Airlines may offer 'clockface departures' but the planes actually depart at very precise times. In addition, the non-standard times actually aid the flow of customers as it's easier to remember 1258 or 1504 than 'half past X' and causes less confusion for international customers. Many parts of the world use only 12 or 24 hour clocks, in German they say 'half to' not 'half past', so avoiding the standard xx00, xx15, xx30 reduces the risk of confusion. 1422 is 1422 to everyone.

Plus customer demand means that there are peaks and quiet times so resources need to match this - many people want to go from London>Paris on Friday mid-afternoon and many people from Paris>London on Sunday evening, so you need to have inconsistent service intervals. The Marseille train needs to get back to London all in a day because there is no E* personnel or maintenance facility south of Paris. Currently it leaves at 0719, has a 40 min turnaround in Marseille, departing back at 1422UK, pausing in Lille for 76 mins arriving at 2212. You cannot make that service 'clockface' without seriously sweating that train and pushing crew hours to the limits.

2030 is too late for a Brussels departure because high-speed lines in Belgium actually close overnight for various reasons and 1830 would be too early for a final departure. And 0700 is too late for the first Paris departure.

Also stopping at Ebbsfleet only incurs about a 6 min penalty so, the two 'Expresses' would only be 10 mins ahead in Paris if they got a clear run. It would also mean that staff would have to filter passengers by checking their tickets when boarding because there would be a good few people who would by a perhaps cheaper ticket on the 4 mins later departure, get to St Pancras and chance their way onto the faster, xx00 which would mean that train would be rammed, which if already full and overbooked could mean a huge problem for Channel Tunnel safety.

 

[HowardGWR]

It's Schiphol, not 'Schipol' as correctly spelt in the last posting. I don't know why so many spell it that way. It must be how folk say it.

 

[island]

2030 is too late for a Brussels departure because high-speed lines in Belgium actually close overnight for various reasons

Best tell Eurostar that so they can take train 9165 out of the timetable.