Stopping short on advance ticket

[Gonzoiku]

I have to change travel plans. Have an advance ticket from (say) Carlisle to Aviemore, but now need to stop short at Stirling. I believe I am right that I cannot do so on the advance ticket, but I can break journey at Glasgow, in order to get from Central to Queen Street. So in practice, I could stop short there, and buy a Glasgow - Stirling ticket for the balance of my curtailed journey, correct?

And for the bonus question - the original ticket is first class, but I suspect that I could buy a second class ticket for the Glasgow - Stirling leg but travel first throughout, as the advance ticket only becomes invalid once I step off at Stirling.

Comments welcome!

GZ

 

[northwichcat]

Do you have a ticket valid via Glasgow? When I search for Carlisle to Aviemore the advance tickets which come up are VTWC + Connections tickets for journeys via Edinburgh.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I suppose that
a) both parts of what you propose to do are outwith the validity of an Advance ticket
b) but there seems to be a zero probability of getting "caught"
c) and even if the routing is in fact Edinburgh, that's not a closed station (is it?) so you could probably purchase that extra ticket (that you don't need and can't use) there anyway.

 

[island]

This would be a violation of the terms of your ticket, and a criminal offence.

The chances of it being detected, much less prosecuted, are low.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

and a criminal offence.

I'm struggling to see how this could constitute an offence. There doesn't appear to be any intent to avoid payment of the proper fare; plus the ticket(s) held are valid for the trains travelled on. What offence do you have in mind?

In any case, with reference to the OP's plan the correct approach would be to obtain an excess before starting at Carlisle, which would involve paying the difference between the Advance fare held and the relevant Off-Peak or Anytime fare for the journey, plus the standard £10 administration fee.

This being said, internal industry policy suggests that breaking the journey covered by an Advance ticket should not be penalised, unless there is clear evidence of intent to avoid the payment of the appropriate fare. I don't think this is present here so it seems unlikely that any gateline staff (if there are any at Stirling) would object.

In any case, even if what the OP proposes is indeed a criminal offence in some way, prosecution of said offence seems to be of the utmost unlikelihood, as it would require Scotrail (or some other prosecuting entity) to obtain a Bill of Criminal Letters from the High Court of Justiciary for the specific case at hand. This has only been done twice since 1900, and both in cases of exceptional and severe crimes which were, for whatever reason, not properly prosecuted by the Procurator Fiscal. I hope I'm not being too outlandish in suggesting that Scotrail would be laughed out of Court for wasting their time - not that they have a policy of prosecuting, anyway.

Buying a new ticket from Glasgow to Stirling would possibly make the matter worse if anything - as a standard class ticket is undoubtedly not valid in first class, unless you only present the Advance first class ticket and then use the standard class ticket if required to exit Stirling. That, if anything, may be seen as intent to avoid payment of the proper fare.

 

[island]

Stopping short on an advance ticket when you know that you need to purchase an excess fare to do so would be a S5 (3) RRA 1889 offence of travelling on the railway without having previously paid your fare and with the intent to avoid payment thereof, just the same as travelling with any other ticket you know not to be valid for the journey you propose to make.

In practice, as I said, the offence would not be liable to be detected, nor, in Scotland, prosecuted.

 

[Gonzoiku]

Thanks all for your responses. Ticket is most definitely via Glasgow, where I am obliged to break journey. Can it reasonably be the case that I am also obliged to resume my journey? If no, then presumably I should visit the ticket office at Central or Queen St to buy an excess to ... Glasgow Central or Queen St as the case may be!

The onward journey (to wherever) would then be an entirely unrelated question (and indeed the "bonus" element of my original question was also unrelated, just a case of curiosity).

I am perplexed by the proposition that this could be a RRA offence' since I have paid the fare, can show a ticket, and do not know that I need to pay an excess until I get to the ticket office. I wonder what will be the reaction there.

GZ

 

[island]

It is not a break of journey to walk between stations when necessary to continue your journey.

The excess would be to a walk-up fare that permits break of journey.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks all for your responses. Ticket is most definitely via Glasgow, where I am obliged to break journey. Can it reasonably be the case that I am also obliged to resume my journey? If no, then presumably I should visit the ticket office at Central or Queen St to buy an excess to ... Glasgow Central or Queen St as the case may be!

The onward journey (to wherever) would then be an entirely unrelated question (and indeed the "bonus" element of my original question was also unrelated, just a case of curiosity).

I am perplexed by the proposition that this could be a RRA offence' since I have paid the fare, can show a ticket, and do not know that I need to pay an excess until I get to the ticket office. I wonder what will be the reaction there.

GZ

I suspect that, given the circumstances (stopping short in Scotland), very little can or will be done about you breaking your tickets' terms. That is not to say that I or the forum can endorse doing so, but it is unlikely anything can or will happen if you do.

Personally, I wouldn't mention anything to any ticket office. I would simply ask the conductor on the train before Stirling (on the platform at Glasgow if possible), whether I can get off at Stirling. They are very likely to permit you to do so.

In any case, the term "break of journey" is rather unhelpfully used here, as you are not breaking your journey if you are merely transferring (by whatever means) between stations.

 

[Starmill]

'Break of journey' is an undefined phrase, but I would argue strongly that walking or taking the ScotRail bus service between Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queen Street, between trains, is not a break of journey. Indeed, you are obliged not to break your journey while you are between the two stations, but this is literally impossible for the train company to enforce. Make of that what you will.

You are likely to need to pass through the ticket gates to exit at Stirling.

 

[Gonzoiku]

'Break of journey' is an undefined phrase, but I would argue strongly that walking or taking the ScotRail bus service between Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queen Street, between trains, is not a break of journey.

Quite, although I quote from the terms of the ticket:

"Break of journey:
A break of journey is only permitted to change to/from appropriate connecting trains as indicated on your ticket(s)."

That suggests that someone thinks a change of trains is a break of journey, and the change in question involves leaving the railway estate.

GZ

 

[Starmill]

Indeed - this apparent contradiction has existed for a long time and did when 'break of journey' had a defined meaning too. Unless a break of journey becomes defined again, though, the actual meaning will continue to be a best guess.

 

[crosscity]

Surely the right thing to do is buy a First Class single from Aviemore to Stirling. The OP has then got a valid set of tickets for the journey to Stirling via Aviemore, and can ask the guard whether (s)he may get off at Stirling or make the (pointless) journey to Aviemore and back. There can be no intention of defrauding the railway.

 

[Starmill]

Surely the right thing to do is buy a First Class single from Aviemore to Stirling. The OP has then got a valid set of tickets for the journey to Stirling via Aviemore, and can ask the guard whether (s)he may get off at Stirling or make the (pointless) journey to Aviemore and back. There can be no intention of defrauding the railway.

While I agree that this would entirely solve the problem, at £62.10 it may be more expensive than simply throwing the existing ticket in the bin and buying a completely new one.

 

[methethpropbut]

Surely the right thing to do is buy a First Class single from Aviemore to Stirling. The OP has then got a valid set of tickets for the journey to Stirling via Aviemore, and can ask the guard whether (s)he may get off at Stirling or make the (pointless) journey to Aviemore and back. There can be no intention of defrauding the railway.

Surely a standard class single would suffice?

 

[Gonzoiku]

While I agree that this would entirely solve the problem, at £62.10 it may be more expensive than simply throwing the existing ticket in the bin and buying a completely new one.

But in the following message I understand that "throwing the ticket in the bin" is the equivalent of an RRA offence:

Stopping short on an advance ticket when you know that you need to purchase an excess fare to do so would be a S5 (3) RRA 1889 offence of travelling on the railway without having previously paid your fare and with the intent to avoid payment thereof, just the same as travelling with any other ticket you know not to be valid for the journey you propose to make.

Life ain't simple!

GZ

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But in the following message I understand that "throwing the ticket in the bin" is the equivalent of an RRA offence:


Life ain't simple!

GZ

If you don't travel with a ticket, you can't commit an offence by not using it!

This is all rather theoretical given that it's Scotland - I've already said what I would do!

 

[crosscity]

Surely the right thing to do is buy a First Class single from Aviemore to Stirling. The OP has then got a valid set of tickets for the journey to Stirling via Aviemore, and can ask the guard whether (s)he may get off at Stirling or make the (pointless) journey to Aviemore and back. There can be no intention of defrauding the railway.

Surely a standard class single would suffice?

You are right. So maximum excess is £35.20. I don't know how this compares with how much a new ticket might cost the OP. If there was time it might be possible for the OP to buy an Advance from Aviemore to Stirling, rather than one from Carlisle to Stirling.