XC conductor shortages (August 2018)

[Mag_seven]

Because, just like any business, the cost is always met by the customer. If you are increasing the cost to the business it WILL be passed on. The choice becomes how that is paid for. Either by a general increase across the board so everyone takes the hit or add a premium somewhere. Many businesses will charge a premium for specific additional services. IF we want the railway to act like any other business then we must accept their business practices too.

The customer ALWAYS ends up paying.

Appreciate that if a "Sunday within the working week" deal is agreed with an associated increase in salaries etc then that will be passed on for future Sunday services. What should not be passed on is any payments that take place now to ensure the services that they are supposed to deliver now are actually delivered.

 

[ComUtoR]

If staff aren't contracted to work Sundays then they can hold management to ransom. That has to stop.

And vice versa of course.

I would very much agree it is a bad and very stupid situation. My Sundays are inside and it works quite well. It works because we are ALL on the same contract and ALL have to work them on the roster or cover it when SP etc. Splitting the staffing makes rosters way more complicated and staff can still hold the service to ransom because you would then have a minimal workforce with minimal flexibility elsewhere and IF the Sunday workers go on strike then your still in the same position.

They need to be inside the week and that is something we can all agree on.

 

[ComUtoR]

What should not be passed on is any payments that take place now to ensure the services that they are supposed to deliver now are actually delivered.

Nope that will get passed on without a shadow of a doubt. A company will do everything to recoup their losses or they will go out of business and collapse.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say. Is a TOC on record as saying they'd prefer to keep Sundays to just volunteers ? - or is it yet another union ruse ?.
I would hope that future franchise specs cover these issues in much greater detail so that passengers are put at the top of the list of requirements, not down the bottom after everyone else has taken their cut.

I think there’s a misconception of how the unions operate, the likes of Bob Crow and whoever leads the RMT now only get involved once numerous layers beginning at a very local level have been exhausted. So there has to be some input from the toc to even start the process otherwise nothing will ever change

It’s actually in the unions interest for more staff to be employed as that’s leads to more members and more money for the union. The unions didn’t throw their toys of the pram when virgin for example bought out most of the terms and conditions in return for a higher salary for their members

 

[Robertj21a]

I think there’s a misconception of how the unions operate, the likes of Bob Crow and whoever leads the RMT now only get involved once numerous layers beginning at a very local level have been exhausted. So there has to be some input from the toc to even start the process otherwise nothing will ever change

It’s actually in the unions interest for more staff to be employed as that’s leads to more members and more money for the union. The unions didn’t throw their toys of the pram when virgin for example bought out most of the terms and conditions in return for a higher salary for their members

I don't think there's any misconception on my part, I accept all that you say. What appears to be totally lacking is any 'Can Do' attitude from any of the parties involved. In any other industry there would have been heads rolling years ago. All are so stuck back in the dark ages that it's quite ridiculous.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

I don't think there's any misconception on my part, I accept all that you say. What appears to be totally lacking is any 'Can Do' attitude from any of the parties involved. In any other industry there would have been heads rolling years ago. All are so stuck back in the dark ages that it's quite ridiculous.

Yes it is ridiculous and from what I’ve read I’m not the only unionised member of railway staff on this thread who thinks so

But this situation requires leadership and it’s the dft who could and should provide this but choose not to

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes it is ridiculous and from what I’ve read I’m not the only unionised member of railway staff on this thread who thinks so

But this situation requires leadership and it’s the dft who could and should provide this but choose not to

Better leadership from the RMT is also long overdue.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Nope that will get passed on without a shadow of a doubt. A company will do everything to recoup their losses or they will go out of business and collapse.

It shouldn't be a 'loss' though. If they were responsibly doing business then they would already be accounting for the cost of 'buying out' employees' Sundays. They should be glad they've been able to save as much money as they have been able to up to now, by not yet having to pay this cost.

It's simply wrong to suggest that the passenger should pay because some train staff have an unreasonable expectation (or the unions push them to have said expectation) never to have to work on Sundays despite the railway having operated 7 days a week for nearly two centuries.

The railway is fundamentally an industry which is associated with unsociable working times - drivers driving through the night, track and train maintenance staff working on bank holidays and at 2am on a Sunday, etc. No-one should go into the railway unless they are prepared to accept having to work at said unsociable hours or days. If they have not had an obligation to work at the unsociable hours up until now then they can consider themselves privileged.

 

[1e10]

Not many cancellations on the XC Regional routes today.

 

[RT4038]

How about:
1. No increase in staff numbers to include Sunday in the working week
2. Reduce the quantity of service Monday to Saturday, with longer less frequent trains, so the number of turns currently in operation cover all of the 7 days.
The recent debacles with Thameslink and Northern show that the current infrastructure cannot cope with the amount of trains being scheduled, and that the passengers can actually cope with fewer trains (particularly off peak).

I do not begrudge drivers and conductors their current salaries, largely much better than in BR days. But with it should go flexibility and an ethos that working practices have to include reliably running trains when the public want them. The railways are living in a subsidy bubble, with both management and staff trying to outsmart each other in sheer greed, with the customers and taxpayers having to foot the bill. No extra subsidy to the railways please!

 

[Dave1987]

Better leadership from the RMT is also long overdue.

Better leadership from the Government and DFT is well overdue. Grayling still clinging on to his cabinet job blaming everyone but himself for the disasters his department has created.

 

[ComUtoR]

It shouldn't be a 'loss' though. If they were responsibly doing business then they would already be accounting for the cost of 'buying out' employees' Sundays. They should be glad they've been able to save as much money as they have been able to up to now, by not yet having to pay this cost.

I agree.

It's simply wrong to suggest that the passenger should pay because some train staff have an unreasonable expectation (or the unions push them to have said expectation) never to have to work on Sundays despite the railway having operated 7 days a week for nearly two centuries.

You are conflating separate issues. Passengers should absolutely pay. You are paying for a service, nobody else should get that cost. It has been long discussed and debated that there should be no subsidy, no taxpayer contributions etc for a private company to sit there and suck up the profits and people to pay for something they don't use (taxpayers) It is simple business for the end user to pay for all costs associated and add a little for profit.

To your second comment you couldn't be further from the mark. It is not unreasonable whatsoever. They were employed without Sundays included and worked that way for years. They have got additional pay for Sunday working or time in lieu. This is not just limited to the railway. It is much more unreasonable to expect someone to work outside their contract purely because someone else wants them too. It is also very unreasonable to 'force' contractual change. I would agree that it is unreasonable to not expect change and for a company that runs a booked service to have people to operate it.

The railway is fundamentally an industry which is associated with unsociable working times - drivers driving through the night, track and train maintenance staff working on bank holidays and at 2am on a Sunday, etc. No-one should go into the railway unless they are prepared to accept having to work at said unsociable hours or days. If they have not had an obligation to work at the unsociable hours up until now then they can consider themselves privileged.

Yes in a small and blinkered nutshell. I tried to get my car serviced today. Guess what. The service (and parts) department doesn't work on a Sunday. Maybe they should consider themselves 'privileged' People across ALL employment work to their conditions and obligations. That should be the ONLY expectation.

 

[RT4038]

I agree.



You are conflating separate issues. Passengers should absolutely pay. You are paying for a service, nobody else should get that cost. It has been long discussed and debated that there should be no subsidy, no taxpayer contributions etc for a private company to sit there and suck up the profits and people to pay for something they don't use (taxpayers) It is simple business for the end user to pay for all costs associated and add a little for profit.

To your second comment you couldn't be further from the mark. It is not unreasonable whatsoever. They were employed without Sundays included and worked that way for years. They have got additional pay for Sunday working or time in lieu. This is not just limited to the railway. It is much more unreasonable to expect someone to work outside their contract purely because someone else wants them too. It is also very unreasonable to 'force' contractual change. I would agree that it is unreasonable to not expect change and for a company that runs a booked service to have people to operate it.



Yes in a small and blinkered nutshell. I tried to get my car serviced today. Guess what. The service (and parts) department doesn't work on a Sunday. Maybe they should consider themselves 'privileged' People across ALL employment work to their conditions and obligations. That should be the ONLY expectation.

Would that be the same 'small and blinkered nutshell' that railway staff and management think that by displeasing their customers their jobs will be secure for ever and a day? Keep going.... change is a comin'
The service and parts department is not open at 6.30 am on a Monday. Does this mean that trains shouldn't run at this time either?
I look forward to another bruising dispute , on many lines the travelling public have already been softened up for it and are changing their travelling frequency and habits.

 

[pt_mad]

But isn't that the point? It shouldn't need to cost the company anything, as Sunday is just another day. The fact you want it as a working day but get extra for it, is what stops it.

Note that at a good many Tocs, the hourly rate for Sunday's worked is the same hourly rate they get in the week. It is overtime hours as in voluntary. But there is no financial incentive or extra cost to the company in terms of price of staff per hour. They do save money in terms of being able to run with a reduced number of staff in the books, and then offering them Sunday overtime at the basic hourly rate. This is especially the case for retail and CSA staff.

Note also, tocs have a maximum number of cancellations per day or week which they are allowed. Some tocs produce a daily report which states how many cancellations are allowed the next day to keep to the target. So providing Sunday cancellations dont go over a certain level, and targets are met, then the TOC isnt likely to shed too many tears over it. No franchise demands that ALL services must run as an absolute must believe it or not. Otherwise every operator on the network would be in breach of their franchise agreements. Every franchise allows for a certain number of cancellations.

See now why many Tocs like it as it is?

 

[PHILIPE]

Note that at a good many Tocs, the hourly rate for Sunday's worked is the same hourly rate they get in the week. It is overriov hours as in voluntary. But there is no financial incentive or extra cost to the company in terms of price of staff per hour. They do save money in terms of being able to run with a reduced number of staff in the books, and then offering them Sunday overtime at the basic hourly rate.

Note also, tocs have a maximum number of cancellations per day of week which they are allowed. Some tocs produce a daily report which states how many cancellations are allowed the next day to keep to the target. So providing Sundays cancellations do t go over a certain level, and targets are met, then the TOC isnt likely to shed too many years over it. No franchise demands that ALL services must run as an absolute must believe it or not. Otherwise every operator on the network would be in breach of their franchise agreements. Every franchise allows for a certain number of cancellations.

See now why many Tocs like it as it is?

I remember the days when Sundays were paid at the rate of an hour and three quarters

 

[pt_mad]

The reason why people would want to be paid more to work Sundays is because as it stands they could be on £35k for 35 hours a week, Sunday’s outside. If you bring Sundays inside you could then be on £42k for a 42 hour week. Note those numbers have been pulled out of the air.

Half the point is the working week is say 35 or 37 hours. That is the contracted hours of the employee. It's unlikely that unions are going to accept the contracted working week be increased to a compulsary 43 or 45 hours, because they've worked quite hard to achieve the 35 or 37 hours week. Also much of western Europe now works on a thirty something hour week, which is the bar set really. There's no real point in going backwards. France works even less, and switch their work phones off after 6pm where they work an office week.

It's quite likely Sundays inside would mean a shed more staff required as the working week would probably remain at 35 or 37/38 hours to include Sundays. Staff would also have to be 'bought out'.

 

[pt_mad]

I remember the days when Sundays were paid at the rate of an hour and three quarters

They may be at some tocs I have no idea. But at a good few, when the salaries were renegotiated at the turn of the century and all the added extras were removed, such as overtime rate, Sunday rate, before 6am rate, the salaries were quite often increased slightly but the additional hourly rate for extras were removed to try and simplify terms. Probably helped payroll departments too as they wouldn't have as much admin in terms of working everyone's hourly rate depending on time of day, week, how many extra hours they'd done etc, especially before it was heavily computerised.

 

[dk1]

Quite a few railway professions including some train crew do job share, which to all intents and purpose s is part time working

This is a lot stricter for drivers than conductors at some TOCs & has very different limits compared to being part time. At mine for example the drivers must completely act as one person. No less than 12hrs rest just because it's the other half of the partnership. Their Free Day & Sunday counts (if agreed they can work them) are as one. In no way must either driver gain any benefit whatsoever from the job sharing arrangement. I must admit some of the conductor sharings in the past have been somewhat leaner on what they do allow as long as it's not to the detriment of any other.

We also have some reduced hours/diagram specific traincrew often for medical reasons but these again are very closely monitored by the union reps & not permitted to do any extra (planned) overtime or anything outside their agreed job & of course these members of staff wouldn't normally want to anyway as would mean the special agreement given to them being rescinded.

 

[dk1]

Not many cancellations on the XC Regional routes today.

Doesn't officially start until the 15th.

 

[dk1]

I remember the days when Sundays were paid at the rate of an hour and three quarters

Always reminds me of my extra off job shifts as train announcer. Sunday mornings fire up of the PIDS computer greeted us with "Morning. Time & 3 bits today"

 

[TheBigD]

Not many cancellations on the XC Regional routes today.

4 Birmingham-Leicester and return trips, along with a couple of Birmingham-Nottingham and return trips cancelled...

A couple of cancellations on the Voyager routes as well due to lack of traincrew...

 

[dk1]

4 Birmingham-Leicester and return trips, along with a couple of Birmingham-Nottingham and return trips cancelled...

A couple of cancellations on the Voyager routes as well due to lack of traincrew...

One of the Leicester trips previously caped was later reinstated. Think it was just a Brum Reading too. No TM for one of the Penzance bits beyond Plymouth yesterday. Not sure if they found anyone in the end.

 

[1e10]

One of the Leicester trips previously caped was later reinstated. Think it was just a Brum Reading too. No TM for one of the Penzance bits beyond Plymouth yesterday. Not sure if they found anyone in the end.

Are Penzance starters taxi’d from Plymouth?

 

[dk1]

Are Penzance starters taxi’d from Plymouth?

Now you are asking. Some are out & back & others may travel pass on GWR.

 

[dk1]

Are Penzance starters taxi’d from Plymouth?

Now you are asking. Some are out & back & others may travel pass on GWR.

 

[the sniper]

Yes it is ridiculous and from what I’ve read I’m not the only unionised member of railway staff on this thread who thinks so

But this situation requires leadership and it’s the dft who could and should provide this but choose not to

Better leadership from the RMT is also long overdue.

Nobody has forgotten your opinion Robert, you might as well put that in your signature rather than jumping at any opportunity to shoehorn that sentiment into any thread.

The leader of the RMT isn't in charge of managing to ensure that TOCs deliver their franchise service commitments. And Sundays are an issue which involve ASLEF as much, if not more, than the RMT in many locations...

 

[Spankthemonkey]

4 Birmingham-Leicester and return trips, along with a couple of Birmingham-Nottingham and return trips cancelled...

A couple of cancellations on the Voyager routes as well due to lack of traincrew...

Ponderous recruitment
Failure in 12 years to harmonise guards grade
Failure in 12 years to make Sundays part of the working week for guards
No line of promotion for guards means some disapear suddenly to other Tocs leaving holes in the rosters
Bizarre HR policies leading to poor industrial relations.

Those Brum-Notts are only hourly on a Sunday and cancelling them causes overloading elsewhere. Can't even take a voyager to Derby and get an emt service at the mo either. Do XC care? At a roumered £4k a cancellation it's probably cheaper than paying for Sunday inclusive or a rest day premium. Sod the reputation of the railways...

 

[pt_mad]

No line of promotion for guards means some disapear suddenly to other Tocs leaving holes in the rosters

What is a line of promotion for guards?

 

[LowLevel]

What is a line of promotion for guards?

Basically he means any guard with aspirations to be a driver has to leave XC as they don't train drivers from scratch, they only poach other company's.

Consequently for example an EMT guard leaving to be a driver will likely know for months when they're going and so will the company.

An XC guard leaving for EMT will give their minimum notice period of leaving in case anything changes thus giving no time to recruit a replacement.

Guard to driver isn't recognised line of promotion as such except I believe on Merseyrail but it's an extremely common one nonetheless provided you pass the psychometrics.

 

[whoosh]

"
Why don't the TOCs include Sundays in the working week for new recruits only?"

Well, this would need to be negotiated. Because if it wasn't negotiated and imposed instead, you could find that all the existing staff permanently forego Sunday overtime, and you won't have enough new staff to cover the service on Sundays!

ASLEF are keen to include Sundays in the working week, and the last EMT pay deal (the worst I've ever seen) gave the choice of staying opted out of Sunday in the working week, or 'opting in'. In particular at Nottingham, a considerable number remain opted out, and thus the number of Sundays worked by those who 'opted in' will be high - and for not much more money.