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How will GTR cope with Brighton Pride crowds?

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bb21

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It's the people that insist that to-day's railway is better who are wearing the spectacles.

The days when we had "one railway". No doubt someone will come along and accuse you of having "rose tinted spectacles" soon.

Both have got things badly wrong before and both have got things right. Some aspects of BR are arguably better than nowadays, and some other aspects the other way round.

If we can leave out the bitching and unnecessarily trying to pick a fight with other forum members, but instead stick to relevant facts then that would be appreciated. Thank you.
 
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sprunt

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Is this a picture of the beach at Brighton? Shocking!

Someone in the thread says there weren't enough bins on the beach!

https://twitter.com/samarchitects/status/1026048469272866817?s=19

It is disgraceful, but I don't think it's specifically down to Pride - I suspect you'd find the beach looking like that after any busy Saturday. I went to my local park the Sunday after a hot Saturday in May this year, and it was disgusting. And yes, the people blaming the lack of bins for it rather than the pigs who can't take responsibility for their own mess are also disgraceful.
 

Fincra5

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There were not enough trains on Saturday

Incorrect. There were even additional services, some that were totally adhoc - offered by crews - to help get people back.

One of the issues is the Park suddenly closing after Britney (Pride organisation's plan) - so rather than a stream of people leaving, at different times, they all left at once in a flood of people. People jumping over barriers and ramming themselves onto trains - preventing trains from leaving. It is one of the reasons the Police closed the station - for Safety.

IMO - The queuing system needs to be redesigned for next year. Rather than all 3 starting from the same entrance. The East Coast could start its queue from the Car Park side, thus reducing the impact out of the main entrance.
 

Sunset route

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IMO - The queuing system needs to be redesigned for next year. Rather than all 3 starting from the same entrance. The East Coast could start its queue from the Car Park side, thus reducing the impact out of the main entrance.

I do like your thinking, then maybe crowds for the main line/London could queue in Queens Road and use the main entrance, with the crowds for the Coastway West using Trafalgar Street and the west entrance next to M&S thus keeping the three flows separate from each other. Although this plan only works as long as there are no last minute replatforming like 8 to 3 for an Coastway East Service.
 

infobleep

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To run these additional services were they just using roiling stock that was about to come off use and had already been running similar services earlier in the evening?

I ask because in the past I've been told on here it's not possible to add additional coaches to trains or run additional services as there isn't a fleet of trains laying around just for the occasional special event.
 

Clip

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To run these additional services were they just using roiling stock that was about to come off use and had already been running similar services earlier in the evening?

I ask because in the past I've been told on here it's not possible to add additional coaches to trains or run additional services as there isn't a fleet of trains laying around just for the occasional special event.


Theres a stark difference towards the end of service availability and at other times you know.
 

jon0844

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There was no such thing as Hidden then. Did they just ask drivers and other staff to work through the night?

How would it be done today if you realised that your plan wasn't working because 50000 people turned up wanting to go to London at midnight? At best you had 12 car 700s able to take around 1700 each, but possibly other stock less capable.

Ask the drivers if they'd do another few hours?
 

Clip

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Surely Saturday night was end of service on any other given week?

Yes but it was answering your question about trains not being available at other times when at other times of the week they are not inuse.
 

LAX54

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There were not enough trains on Saturday

According to TOPS there were plenty of trains, plus extra ones, but you are never, ever going to move 50,000 + people in one hit !
One could ask, why did the people attending all think they could jump on a train at the same time ! ?
Next time DON'T hold the event in Brighton, try London.
 

jon0844

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According to TOPS there were plenty of trains, plus extra ones, but you are never, ever going to move 50,000 + people in one hit !
One could ask, why did the people attending all think they could jump on a train at the same time ! ?
Next time DON'T hold the event in Brighton, try London.

Given the weather, there were likely plenty more people wanting to get home who had gone to Brighton and NOT seen Britney. People who had been for the beach and then gone out for a meal/drink, bowling or whatever. Brighton would be busy even without Pride, but combine that with regular seasonal visitors and it is certainly going to be busy. Especially when people don't reserve seats/trains, so nobody can properly predict demand.
 

farleigh

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Incorrect. There were even additional services, some that were totally adhoc - offered by crews - to help get people back.

One of the issues is the Park suddenly closing after Britney (Pride organisation's plan) - so rather than a stream of people leaving, at different times, they all left at once in a flood of people. People jumping over barriers and ramming themselves onto trains - preventing trains from leaving. It is one of the reasons the Police closed the station - for Safety.

IMO - The queuing system needs to be redesigned for next year. Rather than all 3 starting from the same entrance. The East Coast could start its queue from the Car Park side, thus reducing the impact out of the main entrance.
So you think there were enough trains to get everybody home?
I believe you are completely wrong as there were not enough trains - as I stated.
 

winks

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300,000 attended last year.
450,000 this year

Where will it end? In the short term then will have to re-think travel plans
 

Fincra5

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So you think there were enough trains to get everybody home?
I believe you are completely wrong as there were not enough trains - as I stated.

There were enough trains if the flow was managed.

If the queuing system hadn't failed (not sure what happened) and people didn't jump barriers and try to ram themselves onto full trains - preventing them from Departing - the Police wouldn't have made the decision to close the station, on safety grounds.

As I said previously, the queuing system needs a re-think for next year. Perhaps also better security than the agency STM...
 

farleigh

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There were enough trains if the flow was managed.

If the queuing system hadn't failed (not sure what happened) and people didn't jump barriers and try to ram themselves onto full trains - preventing them from Departing - the Police wouldn't have made the decision to close the station, on safety grounds.

As I said previously, the queuing system needs a re-think for next year. Perhaps also better security than the agency STM...
I agree about the queuing being better organised, but I still disagree that there were enough trains. As stated above there were 450 000 people. Not all will have got the train but lets say half. That would need 200 odd trains. Were there really that many waiting?
 

sprunt

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If the queuing system hadn't failed (not sure what happened) and people didn't jump barriers and try to ram themselves onto full trains - preventing them from Departing - the Police wouldn't have made the decision to close the station, on safety grounds.

I suspect communications were poor, as they usually are when GTR are involved. People shouldn't jump the barriers, but I bet that if there was someone with a megaphone asking people to be patient, and reassuring them that although it may take a while they will get onto a train significantly less of that would have happened.
 

Mintona

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I agree about the queuing being better organised, but I still disagree that there were enough trains. As stated above there were 450 000 people. Not all will have got the train but lets say half. That would need 200 odd trains. Were there really that many waiting?

There’s just no way you can run 200 trains in a 3 hour schedule overnight on a Saturday. Not if you want any semblance of a morning peak on Monday.
 

jon0844

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I suspect communications were poor, as they usually are when GTR are involved. People shouldn't jump the barriers, but I bet that if there was someone with a megaphone asking people to be patient, and reassuring them that although it may take a while they will get onto a train significantly less of that would have happened.

People jumped the barriers in the middle of the day! Some people are just idiots, full stop.

For clarification, I mean the barriers not the gateline that was actually open.
 

Ianno87

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I agree about the queuing being better organised, but I still disagree that there were enough trains. As stated above there were 450 000 people. Not all will have got the train but lets say half. That would need 200 odd trains. Were there really that many waiting?

Not enough trains?

Or just too big an event for the transport infrastructure (a fixed commodity in its capacity) to have a chance of handling if the entire thing tips out in one go?
 

Darandio

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I agree about the queuing being better organised, but I still disagree that there were enough trains. As stated above there were 450 000 people. Not all will have got the train but lets say half. That would need 200 odd trains. Were there really that many waiting?

There were enough trains for what the infrastructure could handle. There weren't enough trains for the amount of people that wanted to travel right at that time. Big difference.
 

Chrisgr31

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I think the difference between Pride on Saturday and Operation Picnic (was it for the Blackbushe concert) was that at the latter event the numbers they needed to transport were known in advance and they didnt have extras appearing from all around.

With Pride they would have known they would be getting some of the 45,000 people attending Britney (although it appears 54,000 actually attended) and they might have thought they would have a much smaller number of those who attended the other Pride events in the day.

However what happened was 450,000 people attended, against 300,000 predicted and a lot of those potentially stayed late because of the nice weather.
 

farleigh

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I think someone nailed it upthread. The fact that the TOC has zero incentive to lay on more trains is a big problem. If they kept the revenue, then that would potentially be £25000 per train. Happy days!!
 

Robsignals

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Pride in one of many events that shuts Brighton down for a day losing traders a lot of money, pretty much all general visitors know to keep away as getting around is pretty impossible. With so many events I suspect casual visitors have, like me, crossed Brighton off their list of places to go at weekends. It's a major bus hub but on these days they all terminate away from the centre and good luck trying to find your onward service, certainly be a lengthy walk probably up a steep hill. Brighton really is a crazy place!
 

jon0844

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Pride in one of many events that shuts Brighton down for a day losing traders a lot of money, pretty much all general visitors know to keep away as getting around is pretty impossible. With so many events I suspect casual visitors have, like me, crossed Brighton off their list of places to go at weekends. It's a major bus hub but on these days they all terminate away from the centre and good luck trying to find your onward service, certainly be a lengthy walk probably up a steep hill. Brighton really is a crazy place!

I went there on Sunday to get a connecting train towards Portsmouth and it was crazy busy. I had to leave the station building to rejoin a queue back in to board my train (lucky it wasn't a tight connection) so when I came back, I took SWR to Waterloo because I didn't want to be anywhere near the place.

There were ample warning posters and messages on the train PIS screens, plus platform screens. Nobody could have been in any doubt that Pride was taking place and to avoid if you weren't intending to be part of it, and given the numbers, had a plan B on how you were going to get home.

I'm one of those people who goes to events and often seeks to leave early to avoid the crush when a venue closes (e.g. The O2 or Wembley stadium). Or I book a hotel near, but not too near, and may still take a long time to get there - but not as bad as trying to get all the way home.

I think people cycling to Brighton have now worked out how to get back home, with their bikes, and next year I hope those attending Pride will put more thought into things. It's such a huge event, it's unreasonable to expect the trains, or even the local buses and taxis, to cope. I am sure the buses were struggling and so were the cabs. In fact, as people made their way to the station the traffic must have been terrible too.
 

infobleep

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Yes but it was answering your question about trains not being available at other times when at other times of the week they are not inuse.
My question was whethee they were using existing rolling stock that was already in service to provide these additional services or whether it was additional rolling stock?
 

physics34

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they need to make Preston Park station take *some* of the strain, somehow!
 

philthetube

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This will upset some but maybe trains in the evening should have been taken out of service at preston road and alternatives arranged, difficult I know, in order to avoid conflicting passenger moves at Brighton.
 

Dr Hoo

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My question was whethee they were using existing rolling stock that was already in service to provide these additional services or whether it was additional rolling stock?
I don't think that there has ever been a suggestion that 'extra' rolling stock was needed. GTR has plenty of EMUs available to it on a Saturday evening.
Were you thinking along the lines of West Coast Railway bringing down a couple of sets from Carnforth or something? Not necessary.
 
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