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Disabled passenger claims Northern guard's behaviour gave her panic attack.

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northwichcat

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This has just been on the regional news

Northern Rail apologise after disabled passenger told she cannot travel with mobility scooter

Northern Rail has apologised for the distress caused by the "unacceptable experience" after a female passenger filmed her conversation with a train guard. The passenger says she is having a panic attack as the train stands stationary, while the discussion about the mobility scooter

The passenger, who has autism and Ehlers-Danlos syndromes says she is recovering from surgery, she has received widespread support after posting the video online.

The passenger, who uses the handle Agony Autie, said was sold a ticket and helped on board the train but later told that her mobility scooter was too big to be carried on board.

“We are currently investigating the incident, have spoken directly with the customer and are organising to meet in person to discuss her experience and see how we can learn and improve to help staff be more autistic and disabled aware.”

– NORTHERN SPOKESPERSON

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/upd...told-she-cannot-travel-with-mobility-scooter/

There's also a video which explains she was intending to travel from Chester to Bolton for a wedding and the incident happened after she boarded a 156 at Manchester Oxford Road after having traveled to Manchester on an ATW service. She also claims the interaction left her too distraught to go to the wedding.

While officially mobility scooters aren't allowed on Northern services, the guard told her mobility scooters are banned from all trains - which seems to highlight some Northern guards haven't been properly trained.
 
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ComUtoR

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Righteous indignation
Moral outrage
Virtue signalling
High horse and soap box
Bylaw citation
Customer service
Disability law
Social media culture
Blame and claim
Character assassinations
/thread
 

Bromley boy

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Righteous indignation
Moral outrage
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Disability law
Social media culture
Blame and claim
Character assassinations
/thread

Bish bash bosh. Job jobbed.
 

bnm

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To add to that list.

Heartless and uncaring
 
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kieron

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She also claims the interaction left her too distraught to go to the wedding.
I think that "claim" may be an interpretation of something the reporter said ("When she arrived, she was in no mood to go to a wedding. ... Northern then paid for Sara and Liam to get back from Bolton in a taxi."), rather than anything else. Sara does say in the piece that she had planned to go back the next day, so I suspect that was what actually happened.
...
Character assassinations
/thread
I think you missed "argument about whether this incident is an indictment of privatisation". The member of staff who booked the assisted travel works for a completely different subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn to the one who tried to refuse it, after all.
 
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Journeyman

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The fact that you can get filmed and plastered all over social media when simply trying to do your job is really grim. I feel very sorry for any customer-facing staff these days, they can get absolutely pilloried and exposed by people with an axe to grind.

Note I'm not commenting on this particular case.
 

Bletchleyite

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The fact that you can get filmed and plastered all over social media when simply trying to do your job is really grim. I feel very sorry for any customer-facing staff these days, they can get absolutely pilloried and exposed by people with an axe to grind.

Note I'm not commenting on this particular case.

While I'm not opposed to people *filming* staff for private use e.g. in a complaint they wish to pursue with a TOC (or let's put it this way, if the TOC's agents wish to film me using CCTV, I want to be able to film them if they are misbehaving, too), I do wonder if there should be stricter privacy laws to deal with the issue of people being villified over social media rather than the complaint being pursued properly.
 

Journeyman

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While I'm not opposed to people *filming* staff for private use e.g. in a complaint they wish to pursue with a TOC (or let's put it this way, if the TOC's agents wish to film me using CCTV, I want to be able to film them if they are misbehaving, too), I do wonder if there should be stricter privacy laws to deal with the issue of people being villified over social media rather than the complaint being pursued properly.

Absolutely - people try to force favourable responses to complaints by being extremely public, and I think that is seriously out of order.
 

HowardGWR

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This has just been on the regional news



http://www.itv.com/news/granada/upd...told-she-cannot-travel-with-mobility-scooter/

There's also a video which explains she was intending to travel from Chester to Bolton for a wedding and the incident happened after she boarded a 156 at Manchester Oxford Road after having traveled to Manchester on an ATW service. She also claims the interaction left her too distraught to go to the wedding.

While officially mobility scooters aren't allowed on Northern services, the guard told her mobility scooters are banned from all trains - which seems to highlight some Northern guards haven't been properly trained.
How does a mobility scooter-using customer know which trains will not take a mobility scooter?
 

Muzer

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Absolutely - people try to force favourable responses to complaints by being extremely public, and I think that is seriously out of order.
People do this because it's the only way to get a decent response out of companies, if they know that everything they say and do can and will be picked up by the media.
 

Bletchleyite

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People do this because it's the only way to get a decent response out of companies, if they know that everything they say and do can and will be picked up by the media.

By all means chuck adverse publicity at the *company* where justified, but it seems these days to be more about villifying individuals, speaking of "idiot guards" and the likes. Make the member of staff unrecognisable e.g. by blurring them, and the issue is much smaller.
 

Journeyman

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By all means chuck adverse publicity at the *company* where justified, but it seems these days to be more about villifying individuals, speaking of "idiot guards" and the likes.

This is where it's a serious problem - you get an individual who decides to engineer a confrontation, films it, and posts it online out of context in a way that is designed to make the staff member involved look as bad as possible.

This is something that can have lifelong negative consequences for someone, possibly even destroying their livelihood completely, and I'm not convinced many people deserve that.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is where it's a serious problem - you get an individual who decides to engineer a confrontation, films it, and posts it online out of context in a way that is designed to make the staff member involved look as bad as possible.

This is something that can have lifelong negative consequences for someone, possibly even destroying their livelihood completely, and I'm not convinced many people deserve that.

Precisely - and that (not making a fool of large companies, who can as a non-human entity generally handle it) is what I'm considering may need additional privacy legislation. An outright ban on publishing a photo/film of someone without permission would be impractical (imagine not being able to put your holiday snaps on FB because a few other tourists were in the background, for instance) but something about "the primary subject" of a photograph or film having to give explicit permission may be workable in some form.
 

OneOffDave

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This is where it's a serious problem - you get an individual who decides to engineer a confrontation, films it, and posts it online out of context in a way that is designed to make the staff member involved look as bad as possible.

This is something that can have lifelong negative consequences for someone, possibly even destroying their livelihood completely, and I'm not convinced many people deserve that.

Yeah, that's what us disabled people do. We love engineering confrontations rather than being able to travel from a to b
 

OneOffDave

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Precisely - and that (not making a fool of large companies, who can as a non-human entity generally handle it) is what I'm considering may need additional privacy legislation. An outright ban on publishing a photo/film of someone without permission would be impractical (imagine not being able to put your holiday snaps on FB because a few other tourists were in the background, for instance) but something about "the primary subject" of a photograph or film having to give explicit permission may be workable in some form.

If you don't want your actions becoming public then don't work in a public facing role.
 

Journeyman

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Precisely - and that (not making a fool of large companies, who can as a non-human entity generally handle it) is what I'm considering may need additional privacy legislation. An outright ban on publishing a photo/film of someone without permission would be impractical (imagine not being able to put your holiday snaps on FB because a few other tourists were in the background, for instance) but something about "the primary subject" of a photograph or film having to give explicit permission may be workable in some form.

Yup - I've had plenty of public-facing roles where I've tried hard to be decent in the face of extreme provocation, and I'm lucky that most of them happened before social media was common - in one, I was ranted at for ages and accused of being racist by someone not even involved in an incident that had previously taken place, and if that had been filmed and posted, it could have ruined my career because it almost certainly would not have presented my side of the argument fairly (and I can assure you I was NOT being racist). In another more recent incident, I was confronted by a grown adult having a full-on temper tantrum for half an hour for not calling him a free taxi when perfectly good arrangements were in place to get him where he was going, admittedly by rail replacement bus rather than train, and again that could have been spun in such a way as to make me appear a heartless ******* had it ever gone online.

It's really unfair that people are exposed to risk in such a way if someone decides to be malicious, and they're frequently hung out to dry by their employers when it happens.
 

northwichcat

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How does a mobility scooter-using customer know which trains will not take a mobility scooter?

Especially considering Manchester Oxford Road to Bolton used to get TPE operated 185s, alongside Northern 142/150/156s but now only gets Northern services.
 

Journeyman

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Yeah, that's what us disabled people do. We love engineering confrontations rather than being able to travel from a to b
If you don't want your actions becoming public then don't work in a public facing role.

It's not that simple.

I'm fully aware that disabled people have an extremely difficult time and that travelling can be very stressful, and I'm absolutely not tarring everyone with the same brush here. I've done everything I can in my career to be as helpful as possible and I think I've done alright on that front. I have no issue at all in going the extra mile, and I fully acknowledge that a lot of staff don't, and it has to improve.

However, filming people and going to the media over things like this is absolutely not on and is extremely unfair on the staff involved. We've only heard one side of the story here, and that's what I have a problem with.
 

HowardGWR

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This strikes me as something requiring a national policy.
I looked up a reference and got this from 'Motability' web site:
"
Planning your trip in advance
  • Call your travel company or look on their website to find out details of disabled parking availability, and the accessibility in the station or depot that you will be travelling to and from
  • If you think you will require assistance on your journey, you may be able to book this with your transport operator in advance; most operators will require a minimum of 24 hours’ notice
  • Some train providers offer a ‘Passenger Assist’ service, where free help can be arranged for getting on and off the train with baggage. You can book passenger assistance through National Rail Enquiries by calling 03457 48 49 50 or visiting their website, at nationalrail.co.ukOpens in new window"
Would the passenger have booked her service, as she had her husband with her? I still don't know which trains take scooters and which don't. The way GWR, for instance, change their trains around at the moment, it must be a lottery as to what turns up, mustn't it?

Edit: Incidentally, use of English is not improving. Why would one plan one's trip 'in arrears'?
 

northwichcat

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In another more recent incident, I was confronted by a grown adult having a full-on temper tantrum for half an hour for not calling him a free taxi when perfectly good arrangements were in place to get him where he was going, admittedly by rail replacement bus rather than train

If your journey involves multiple legs having one leg replaced by a bus stopping at all stations may be enough to make your journey pointless.
 

OneOffDave

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It's not that simple.

I'm fully aware that disabled people have an extremely difficult time and that travelling can be very stressful, and I'm absolutely not tarring everyone with the same brush here. I've done everything I can in my career to be as helpful as possible and I think I've done alright on that front. I have no issue at all in going the extra mile, and I fully acknowledge that a lot of staff don't, and it has to improve.

However, filming people and going to the media over things like this is absolutely not on and is extremely unfair on the staff involved. We've only heard one side of the story here, and that's what I have a problem with.
Given that staff and management regularly lie to your face and when you complain you're told it'd just your word against theirs and no action is taken to improve things, there comes a point where you have to draw the line and make these organisations accountable for their actions.
I was told the other week that a certain course of cation had been risk assessed and was considered safe. After a bit of digging, I found that no risk assessment had been carried out at all. So if we can't go the the media and the companies are lying to us, how should we move things forward?
 

Journeyman

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Given that staff and management regularly lie to your face and when you complain you're told it'd just your word against theirs and no action is taken to improve things, there comes a point where you have to draw the line and make these organisations accountable for their actions.

My emphasis.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree with splashing a public-facing employee's face all over the internet in response to a poor experience, for the reasons I've already stated.

Most public-facing railway employees are decent people trying to do the best they can. Don't scapegoat them for failings higher up the food chain.
 

Bantamzen

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If your journey involves multiple legs having one leg replaced by a bus stopping at all stations may be enough to make your journey pointless.

That's not an excuse to throw a strop as seems to have happened in this example. Things go wrong, things don't always go to plan and we sometimes just have to accept that. Recently at a ticketed office on the Northern network I watched a passenger launch a tirade of abuse at the office staff because he missed his connection because, wait for it, the platform signs were confusing. He rapidly sought the backup of my other fellow passengers within earshot (which was quite a distance!), however a few of us had witnessed him arriving a couple of minutes earlier (and within less than a minute of said service departing) and asking which platform to go to & being told exactly the direction to go in, and that he would likely miss it as it was due to leave so we were not going to stroke his ego. Still this didn't stop him getting even more highly agitated, abusing the staff further, and then us for not backing him up.
 

OneOffDave

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My emphasis.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree with splashing a public-facing employee's face all over the internet in response to a poor experience, for the reasons I've already stated.

Most public-facing railway employees are decent people trying to do the best they can. Don't scapegoat them for failings higher up the food chain.

My emphasis. So individuals aren't responsible for their own actions? Also they are the ones we have dealings with and if organisations back their staff regardless what redress do we have. The other alternative to using the media would be to go back to the direct action protests of the 80s and 90s and more people would be adversely impacted
 

mpthomson

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Yeah, that's what us disabled people do. We love engineering confrontations rather than being able to travel from a to b

Because Journeyman's post referred to all disabled people... oh wait, it didn't, not even remotely. It was a general point about the use of social media instead of following an organisation's complaints processes.

That said, and as others have posted, there really does need to be a national policy on this, it must be very confusing if you possess one of these scooters trying to work out what services you can and can't access and I don't envy anyone that.
 

OneOffDave

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That said, and as others have posted, there really does need to be a national policy on this, it must be very confusing if you possess one of these scooters trying to work out what services you can and can't access and I don't envy anyone that.

Very much this. It needs to be national. It needs to be clear and it needs to be applied consistently
 

Bromley boy

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Given that staff and management regularly lie to your face and when you complain you're told it'd just your word against theirs and no action is taken to improve things, there comes a point where you have to draw the line and make these organisations accountable for their actions.
I was told the other week that a certain course of cation had been risk assessed and was considered safe. After a bit of digging, I found that no risk assessment had been carried out at all. So if we can't go the the media and the companies are lying to us, how should we move things forward?

By the same token some (not all) disabled travellers display a sense of entitlement and a bad attitude. As evidenced on a recent thread where some were arguing that able bodied passengers should be ordered off trains to make way for wheel chair users.

My emphasis. So individuals aren't responsible for their own actions? Also they are the ones we have dealings with and if organisations back their staff regardless what redress do we have. The other alternative to using the media would be to go back to the direct action protests of the 80s and 90s and more people would be adversely impacted

So how was filming justified in this case?

The guard was doing her job and enforcing the TOC’s policy - a policy the traveller should have made herself aware of before travelling.

If a wheelchair user turned up to my local station without checking and found that there was no wheelchair access, would they be jusified in ranting at the bloke in the ticket office, filming it, and splashing it all over social media?

I agree that the scooter policy should be standardised, but that is not within the gift of front line staff to change.
 

OneOffDave

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By the same token some (not all) disabled travellers display a sense of entitlement and a bad attitude. As evidenced on a recent thread where some were arguing that able bodied passengers should be ordered off trains to make way for wheel chair users.



So how was filming justified in this case?

The guard was doing her job and enforcing the TOC’s policy - a policy the traveller should have made herself aware of before travelling.

If a wheelchair user turned up to my local station without checking and found that there was no wheelchair access, would they be jusified in ranting at the bloke in the ticket office, filming it, and splashing it all over social media?

I agree that the scooter policy should be standardised, but that is not within the gift of front line staff to change.

Are you aware of the details of all the TOCs policies that might affect you on all the services you travel on?

When has the example you gave happened or is it just whataboutery?

As for entitlement, how would you feel about being disproportionally affected by disruption every time it happened compared with other passengers? How do you like being tutted at just for having the audacity to use one of the six spaces on a train where able bodied passengers have a choice of over 700 spaces? Should we just go back to the 70s and stay in homes so our presence doesn't cause offence?
 

Journeyman

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So individuals aren't responsible for their own actions?

Of course they are.

Also they are the ones we have dealings with and if organisations back their staff regardless what redress do we have.

Organisations frequently don't back their staff, which is why methods like plastering their actions all over social media are a very, very bad idea. It's extremely unfair to the staff concerned.

Picture the following scenario, if you will.

You're a guard. You have to get up at 04.00 to start your shift, but your extremely inconsiderate neighbours kept you awake for hours by playing loud music until 01.00. Your shift has been a difficult one - lots of delayed trains and a major event keep you on your toes all day. Still, you get towards the end feeling a bit knackered but generally OK. Things could have been worse.

Then, someone comes along who decides to blame you for them missing a connection and being delayed for two hours despite it not being your fault. You try your best to help. You come up with an alternative route that will save them some time. You politely explain about Delay Repay. You apologise, you empathise, you do all the things you're supposed to do. You even offer to carry their bag over the footbridge for them. You then get ranted at for getting on for half an hour, despite busting a gut to keep the customer happy, and in the process the customer misses the connection you'd suggested. They get even angrier, and throw in an extremely rude personal insult.

Despite holding it together until this point, eventually your tiredness and frustration get the better of you, and you lose your rag. Before you know it, you've snapped and sworn at the customer, and it's all over in seconds. The customer storms off.

Unbeknown to you, they've filmed the whole thing, and decide to post it on social media, but not before they've edited it to show just the introductory bit where the customer was polite, immediately followed by you swearing, with nothing in between - none of the bits where you've done everything you could to help. Your name badge shows up prominently in the video.

The video goes viral, and before you know it you've been sacked for gross misconduct with absolutely no opportunity to explain what has happened. Your family depended on your income which immediately puts your home at risk. Your relationship with your wife was somewhat strained, and she decides this is the last straw, and takes herself and her kids off to her mother's. Your friends decide you were completely out of order and you start losing contact with them.

You try really hard to find another job, and manage to get one, albeit on a much lower salary, but the HR manager responsible for your recruitment Googles your name, finds the video and revokes the job offer. Shortly afterwards your house gets repossessed.

Not long after that, you're walking along the street when someone recognises you, and decides your actions are worthy of a good kicking. You end up in A&E and are permanently scarred.

Personally, however bad a customer-facing member of staff had treated me, I would not want any of that on my conscience. That's what can happen if you decide to take things into your own hands.

There's ways and means of dealing with poor treatment. I've been both complained about in junior roles, and the investigator of complaints in more senior ones, and I can assure you that everywhere I've worked the investigations have been robust and properly conducted, and efforts have been made to ensure they're scrupulously fair, with access to union representation and a whole range of other things. That is the way things like this should be carried out.

Please also note I am not accusing you of anything, neither am I tarring all disabled people with the same brush etc. I'm just saying that public humiliation of staff is very one-sided and can have potentially extremely serious consequences that are absolutely not deserved.
 
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