December 2018 timetable changes (some now confirmed scrapped) - contagion spreads

[83G/84D]

Thanks

 

[northwichcat]

Have the DfT banned WMT from having any timetable changes at all this December?

My interpretation is they can make changes if they fit around current services but a full recast is not permitted and neither are changes to services dependent on infrastructure changes which haven't been completed by the time the new timetable is submitted.

 

[swt_passenger]

Pity that GWR are to continue with their May timetable but they will be printing a lot of leaflets: I picked up a Severn beach one this morning which gave the validity date as being until 31st December 2018.

All the leaflets are already reprinted twice a year whether amended or not. It isn't an additional cost at all.

 

[swt_passenger]

The enhanced and recast timetable for Devon and Cornwall has been delayed until Spring 2019 if local rumours are to be believed.

That's right, but its a bit more than a "local rumour", the announcement by RDG (post #9 in this thread), already confirms that the current GWR timetable is one of those that will run on beyond December and that effectively means nothing significant will happen until next May at the earliest. I can easily believe it being deferred again until Dec 2019 as well...

 

[gavin]

What's happened to the Aberdeen to Penzance service? it only seems to be running to/from Newcastle

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It's affected by the Derby blockades. You'll find there's a corresponding Reading-Aberdeen service for a few months while the paths are swapped.

 

[Ianno87]

What's happened to the Aberdeen to Penzance service? it only seems to be running to/from Newcastle

Currently? Its amended due to Derby remodelling. Effectively steps back by half and hour in path due to the diversion, so a different origin/destination pairing either side of Derby.

 

[Siemens Staines]

It's affected by the Derby blockades. You'll find there's a corresponding Reading-Aberdeen service for a few months while the paths are swapped.

And even more bizarrely an Aberdeen - Guildford in the other direction

 

[tsr]

And even more bizarrely an Aberdeen - Guildford in the other direction

I have been trying to find a reason to use that one for its whole journey!

 

[BMIFlyer]

Northern will no longer use class 185's from the December 2018 timetable change.

 

[northernchris]

Northern will no longer use class 185's from the December 2018 timetable change.

Hopefully by then all the 170s will be in use allowing a fleet reshuffle to maintain capacity

 

[Greybeard33]

Northern will no longer use class 185's from the December 2018 timetable change.

Not doubting that that is the current plan, but I seem to remember you saying the same thing last year about the December 2017 timetable change!

"The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley...."

 

[BMIFlyer]

Not doubting that that is the current plan, but I seem to remember you saying the same thing last year about the December 2017 timetable change!

"The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley...."

Had the Bolton line upgrade gone to plan, that would have been the case. However the best solution was to drop to 2 units on hire in the meantime.

The fact is, TPE require those 2 units from December, as they are supposed to be running even more services from then than current, however that plan seems to have been put on temporary hold.

The 2 units are needed to strengthen trains, most certainly.

 

[northernchris]

Had the Bolton line upgrade gone to plan, that would have been the case. However the best solution was to drop to 2 units on hire in the meantime.

The fact is, TPE require those 2 units from December, as they are supposed to be running even more services from then than current, however that plan seems to have been put on temporary hold.

The 2 units are needed to strengthen trains, most certainly.

When do TPE start to release 185s?

 

[BMIFlyer]

When do TPE start to release 185s?

Middle of next year, but they might in fact still keep them all depending on the negotiation regarding NOT-LIV.

If not then they are going into storage.

 

[cle]

Is there really nowhere the 185s could be put to use?! How about the ‘lesser’ XC routes like Cardiff to Brum/Notts, or even to Cardiff to Portsmouth? Or the Manchester - West Wales?

No Wales agenda here, just how it planned out thinking of longer diesel routes which connect multiple cities and probably need a boost.

 

[Starmill]

Is there really nowhere the 185s could be put to use?! How about the ‘lesser’ XC routes like Cardiff to Brum/Notts, or even to Cardiff to Portsmouth? Or the Manchester - West Wales?

This would require XC pay to lease them, to find somewhere to maintain them, and train their crews on them. The chances of that happening during a Direct Award are ~0.

There is already a dedicated thread for speculation on further applications for the 185 fleet here. Note that since the East Midlands ITT was released, the possibility has been mooted that more routes will transfer into the TransPennine Express (or Northern) franchises, with an amendment to their franchise agreement specially requested by DfT. This means it's a possibility that they will not move away.

 

[clagmonster]

Northern will no longer use class 185's from the December 2018 timetable change.

What will work the first and last Barton trains? The Lancastrian routes make sense as TPE could make use of the units, but Barton is when the unit would otherwise be stabled at Cleethorpes and saves Northern a 153.

 

[northernchris]

Middle of next year, but they might in fact still keep them all depending on the negotiation regarding NOT-LIV.

If not then they are going into storage.

Thanks. Would be a shame for them to be stored especially as Northern could use them on routes like Manchester Airport-Liverpool or Barrow

 

[Andyh82]

If TPE take over Liverpool - Nottingham, wouldn’t it make sense for Liverpool - Manchester Airport to also transfer to TPE?

 

[Killingworth]

If TPE take over Liverpool - Nottingham, wouldn’t it make sense for Liverpool - Manchester Airport to also transfer to TPE?

For a long time TPE have been hoping to have Liverpool - Nottingham remapped from Liverpool-Norwich. The East Midlands refranchising tender assumes that won't be until December 2021 and that just happens to be the earliest likely completion date for the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme. In any event that route could go to Northern.

The East Midlands refranchising also covers possible retention of the service with East Midlands - probably envisaging the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme being yet further delayed. (Before the public inquiry it was planned to be complete by September 2018!)

As an aside, and I don't recall his name, about a year ago I was speaking to someone from the franchising section of the DfT. I pointed out that 4 car EMT 158s have no first class, whilst 3 car 195 TPEs have a large 1st section. (And Northern don't do 1st on the third hourly slow stopping service.) That's not a lot of help for Manchester-Sheffield travellers who want to travel 1st class on the first and/or fastest train available, nor standard class passengers crammed into little more than 2 cars. He saw the point. They want first to be available on all fast services on the route.

I also pointed out that offering a refreshment trolley in a 158 of 4, or 6, cars was not a great problem. In a 3 car 185 it was almost pointless. When busy it can't get through the train. When not busy it won't sell much. If it's a 6 car train it needs two trolleys. Again he took the point. They want catering on all fast trains on the route - and in all carriages. Want and get are potentially problematic.

185s are nice powerful trains, but at present they can't use that power along the Hope Valley to any better effect than a 158. That's due to their greater weight restricting use of their speed. Like the capacity scheme, hoped for line speed improvement plans seem to have been lost on a shelf, who knows where?

 

[mic505]

I thought TPE are keeping all 51 185's until all their new stock is in traffic.

 

[yorksrob]

As an aside, and I don't recall his name, about a year ago I was speaking to someone from the franchising section of the DfT. I pointed out that 4 car EMT 158s have no first class, whilst 3 car 195 TPEs have a large 1st section. (And Northern don't do 1st on the third hourly slow stopping service.) That's not a lot of help for Manchester-Sheffield travellers who want to travel 1st class on the first and/or fastest train available, nor standard class passengers crammed into little more than 2 cars. He saw the point. They want first to be available on all fast services on the route.

I'd rather have a 4 carriage 158 that I can get a seat on, than a 3 carriage 185 without enough capacity with a first class compartment.

 

[mic505]

No, because Liverpool-Manchester Airport via LSP will be a Northern Connect route from December 2019. TPE previously operated the route until the May timetable change, which Northern now run.

 

[Killingworth]

I'd rather have a 4 carriage 158 that I can get a seat on, than a 3 carriage 185 without enough capacity with a first class compartment.

I was booked on a TPE service from Sheffield recently, mid-morning and not commuting time. Couldn't get in the door. Saw a trolley being loaded into first class section but it couldn't have moved within the train.

Waited for following fairly busy EM service which was amazingly on time - but Northern were on strike that day. Got a seat, sandwich and coffee, all in reasonable comfort.

The design of a 158 may not be to everyone's liking but the flexibility to marshall multiple's of interconnected units with 156s and 153s creates a much more practical train.

 

[yorksrob]

I was booked on a TPE service from Sheffield recently, mid-morning and not commuting time. Couldn't get in the door. Saw a trolley being loaded into first class section but it couldn't have moved within the train.

Waited for following fairly busy EM service which was amazingly on time - but Northern were on strike that day. Got a seat, sandwich and coffee, all in reasonable comfort.

The design of a 158 may not be to everyone's liking but the flexibility to marshall multiple's of interconnected units with 156s and 153s creates a much more practical train.

Yes, the 158 is a very effective crowd buster.

 

[Andyh82]

No, because Liverpool-Manchester Airport via LSP will be a Northern Connect route from December 2019. TPE previously operated the route until the May timetable change, which Northern now run.

What’s your point?

If TPE can have their franchised services changed so can Northern

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Is there really nowhere the 185s could be put to use?! How about the ‘lesser’ XC routes like Cardiff to Brum/Notts, or even to Cardiff to Portsmouth?

Even though the 185's are geared for the Pennines quite hilling running, even I wouldn't say no so seeing them on the Cardiff to Portsmouths. Even if it meant speeding up journey times through Wiltshire.

 

[DaiGog]

185s could bring a touch of glamour (relatively speaking!) to Manchester - Cardiff. Increased capacity, freshly refurbished, First Class, and a depot in Manchester to keep them in.

 

[northwichcat]

185s could bring a touch of glamour (relatively speaking!) to Manchester - Cardiff. Increased capacity, freshly refurbished, First Class, and a depot in Manchester to keep them in.

Manchester to Cardiff will be getting brand new trains to replace the 158s and 175s currently used.