ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Tim R-T-C]

This focus on a train's age is bizarre - particularly in Scotland where brand new stock (385s) has been delayed and substituted by older trains (365s).

I don't know where this obsession with 'new' trains being superior has come from, I suspect media sources wanting a negative and politicians' point scoring.

 

[nixer10]

Why doesn't Scotrail just come out and tell everyone what the problem is with the rolling stock it's been going on to long now.

 

[mcmad]

A very weird theme on here trying to paint ‘nationalists’ in a certain light.
I’d wager 99% of ‘nationalists’ know that transport is devolved, and therefore, blaming the English for crap trains is pure raging mental.
The same couldn’t be said for Labour leader Richard Leonard who twice in two weeks had to be reminded by Sturgeon that Network Rail wasn’t devolved when he was having a good ol moan.
Back on topic, as a regular user of the Edinburgh-Aberdeen line, I’m really looking forward to the 40 yo cast-offs. And I say that as somebody perfectly happy with the 170s

Network Rail in Scotland is almost entirely (and certainly for day to day and funding completely) answerable and devolved to Scotland. The SNP keep making this point but I've yet to see details of what exactly they think isn't currently devolved? Other than safety and standards there is nothing and I've yet to see any discussion on why either of those two points isn;t better set at a network level.

 

[Stopper]

No it wouldn't.
There's another one in 15 minutes. And there's 2 decent, and a third alternative route too.
It's a sub 1 hour journey.

Central Belt to Aberdeen is hourly, and lasts longer, and has no alternatives.

E&G is the only show in town to the railway though.

Not everyone is travelling from Edinburgh to Glasgow, and it’s miles miles busier than the Aberdeen route.

Anyway, that’s off-topic. I certainly can’t wait for the HSTs to come into service, hopefully a less crowded Inverness service with less calls in Fife.

 

[Mingulay]

Exactly and I am tired of the constant attempts to make these threads political to satisfy the paranoia of some people.

The 385s were late - no one "blamed it on the English"
The HSTs are late - no one is blaming it on England
Two Calmac ferries are late - no one is blaming it on England.
Edinburgh trams fiasco - no one blamed it on the English
A9 dualling is very slow - no one is blaming....

And so on. It's just an ignorance of the wider world and the legitimate idea of self-determination that drives this British Nationalist paranoia. Grow up!

I think that's a fair point. All these have been Scottish decisions good or bad. There is no place for any more blame it on England as Scotland has had so much devolved power for so long. The SNP / Scot Gov can take all the credit and all the blame for most matters bar foreign policy and defence . And as a Scot the decisions in the above have been mixed. Part bad luck part poor judgement part inexperience born of a mediocre bunch of msps of all parties not just the governing party .

But to try to bring us back to more non political bias of this thread. Would it have been the case or not that before this contract was given or indeed tendered that Wabtec would have piloted as a trial the dismantling and refit of one or 2 coaches to get a feel for the task before quoting a delivery . Should transport Scotland not have had the good sense to see refitting a very old train may present some unforeseen challenges and so need evidence of the claims by wabtec. I have letter from Transport Scotland dated 2 years ago saying the refurb 125 delivery is nailed down and will happen on time as it's binding. Really?

 

[mullac30]

This image (from Twitter, taken today) shows 43169 and the other powercar disconnected from the 4 car set that was supposedly being delivered on Monday - it seems that we shouldn't expect delivery for a fair while if this is anything to go by.

 

[DackandBlecker]

Not everyone is travelling from Edinburgh to Glasgow, and it’s miles miles busier than the Aberdeen route.

Miles miles shorter journey time. Miles miles more alternative services, miles miles cheaper tickets...

Anyway, that’s off-topic. I certainly can’t wait for the HSTs to come into service, hopefully a less crowded Inverness service with less calls in Fife.

Yes.

 

[43096]

This image (from Twitter, taken today) shows 43169 and the other powercar disconnected from the 4 car set that was supposedly being delivered on Monday - it seems that we shouldn't expect delivery for a fair while if this is anything to go by.

You cannot read anything into the power cars being taken off the set. May just be some rectification work needed before despatch so it has been shunted back inside for work to be done. Power cars can be coupled on pretty quickly when it is ready to go.

 

[jingsmonty]

As you say, the issue at Dunkeld is platform height rather than length. The station comfortably holds the sleeper and the one a week LNER HST on a Sunday morning, both of which are slammers as it stands, but from experience boarding a mk3 at this station isn't any more challenging than getting on any other train. P1 is lower still at the end furthest from the station building so the issue is more that the longer the HST set, the more difficult it is to get on or off, I think that's what you're saying?

Nothing will happen with the Dunkeld platforms until they've made up their minds about A9 dualling plans past the station and start work on those, so we'll need to keep heaving on and off for a while yet.

What I was meaning about the difficulty of boarding a slam door Mk3 ar Dunkeld & Birnam is that one of the grab handles is on the door itself, therefore it moves - not the easiest for some passengers to use & harder than a normal power door DMU, where it's just the height that's the issue.

You're probably right about the station work not happening until the route of the A9 dualling has been finalised

 

[Carntyne]

It doesn't imply anything at all. The 43s are there for rake testing.

This image (from Twitter, taken today) shows 43169 and the other powercar disconnected from the 4 car set that was supposedly being delivered on Monday - it seems that we shouldn't expect delivery for a fair while if this is anything to go by.

 

[jingsmonty]

The 1741 certainly can't be as I'm booked in carriage B. Surely a single 158 will be packed to the brim on an intercity service like Edinburgh to Aberdeen? and if not, a 4/5 car HST will be like a ghost town on that service.

The 1741 Glasgow QS to Aberdeen is normally a 5 car (170 + 158) as far as Perth, where the 158 is detached from the rear & the 170 runs on as a 3 car to Aberdeen. A 4/5 car HST would be fine - very busy to Stirling & calming down after Perth. No hassle with ending up in the wrong part of the train either!

 

[jingsmonty]

Exactly and I am tired of the constant attempts to make these threads political to satisfy the paranoia of some people.

The 385s were late - no one "blamed it on the English"
The HSTs are late - no one is blaming it on England
Two Calmac ferries are late - no one is blaming it on England.
Edinburgh trams fiasco - no one blamed it on the English
A9 dualling is very slow - no one is blaming....

And so on. It's just an ignorance of the wider world and the legitimate idea of self-determination that drives this British Nationalist paranoia. Grow up!

Totally agree - some people out there will always find something to hit the Scottish Govt over the head with, even if it has no basis in fact!

This is a thread about the introduction of HSTs to Scotrail, please keep the politics out of it!

As for the constant carping about the age of the HSTs - the decision has been made, they are on the way. I for one think they have the potential to be a huge hit, given they are maintained & refurbished properly (which isn't a given). Scotrail describe them as 'Iconic', which, whilst 'marketing speak', is the perfect way to describe them - they ARE iconic!

 

[507021]

ScotRail have the following on lease: 43003/012/021/026/031-033/036/037/125-128/130/132/134/135/139-143/145/146/148-150/152/163/164/168/169/179/183.
34 down, 20 to go!

Many thanks.

 

[route101]

The 1741 Glasgow QS to Aberdeen is normally a 5 car (170 + 158) as far as Perth, where the 158 is detached from the rear & the 170 runs on as a 3 car to Aberdeen. A 4/5 car HST would be fine - very busy to Stirling & calming down after Perth. No hassle with ending up in the wrong part of the train either!

So what i seen was half the norm , im sure the 158 at the front was the one to Aberdeen with the low seats !

 

[scotraildriver]

The booked 170 had suffered a smashed windscreen from a bird strike earlier in the day so had to be substituted for the 158.

 

[Northhighland]

I don’t think there will be any carping from the public about the introduction of HST. That debate was had and the decision made to invest in new trains for E/G and provide HST for the rest of Scotland. There is a legitimate debate to be had on that. However that time is passed.

We need to make the introduction work. Again it is legitimate to point out that there appears to be no programme for introduction as someone has signed a contract with Wabtec they are unable to meet. So the travelling public are left with no information. Not acceptable and some questions should be asked.

That is not party political but a reasonable question totally related to the topic of this thread. There is no point in defending your pet politician even when there is a legitimate question to ask.

 

[GusB]

We need to make the introduction work. Again it is legitimate to point out that there appears to be no programme for introduction as someone has signed a contract with Wabtec they are unable to meet. So the travelling public are left with no information. Not acceptable and some questions should be asked.

There is a programme for introduction. Regrettably, that appears to have slipped somewhat, but it doesn't mean that there isn't one. I'm fairly sure that questions are being asked, but I would completely understand if Scotrail were reluctant to give out any concrete information at this point until they had an assurance that a certain number of units will be available for service by a certain time. The damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't situation has already been pointed out upthread.

Unfortunately stuff happens. You buy an old house, want some renovations done and then find out that there's an old sewer running beneath that needs dealing with. Or the property turns out to be on ancient burial site, etc. We know from the 385 windscreen issues that even new-build projects can have set-backs.

Scotrail were fairly quick to bring the 365s into service when it looked like the 385 introduction would be significantly delayed and, as it turned out, the delay was sorted out quicker than expected. I'd like to think that they have a contingency plan up their sleeve should the HST programme be much further delayed. At the end of the day, you have one private company asking another private company to do something - we really are not entitled to know the ins and outs.

 

[gingertom]

There is a programme for introduction. Regrettably, that appears to have slipped somewhat, but it doesn't mean that there isn't one. I'm fairly sure that questions are being asked, but I would completely understand if Scotrail were reluctant to give out any concrete information at this point until they had an assurance that a certain number of units will be available for service by a certain time. The damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't situation has already been pointed out upthread.

Unfortunately stuff happens. You buy an old house, want some renovations done and then find out that there's an old sewer running beneath that needs dealing with. Or the property turns out to be on ancient burial site, etc. We know from the 385 windscreen issues that even new-build projects can have set-backs.

Scotrail were fairly quick to bring the 365s into service when it looked like the 385 introduction would be significantly delayed and, as it turned out, the delay was sorted out quicker than expected. I'd like to think that they have a contingency plan up their sleeve should the HST programme be much further delayed. At the end of the day, you have one private company asking another private company to do something - we really are not entitled to know the ins and outs.

just wondering if FGW is having delays to their HST-GTi short sets? More power door mods at Wabtec.

 

[Northhighland]

There is a programme for introduction. Regrettably, that appears to have slipped somewhat, but it doesn't mean that there isn't one. I'm fairly sure that questions are being asked, but I would completely understand if Scotrail were reluctant to give out any concrete information at this point until they had an assurance that a certain number of units will be available for service by a certain time. The damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't situation has already been pointed out upthread.

Unfortunately stuff happens. You buy an old house, want some renovations done and then find out that there's an old sewer running beneath that needs dealing with. Or the property turns out to be on ancient burial site, etc. We know from the 385 windscreen issues that even new-build projects can have set-backs.

Scotrail were fairly quick to bring the 365s into service when it looked like the 385 introduction would be significantly delayed and, as it turned out, the delay was sorted out quicker than expected. I'd like to think that they have a contingency plan up their sleeve should the HST programme be much further delayed. At the end of the day, you have one private company asking another private company to do something - we really are not entitled to know the ins and outs.

I disagree we are not entitled to know the ins and outs. Ultimately this is paid for by the taxpayer so we do have a legitimate question why the date in May was missed and now the July one as well. It is perfectly reasonable to ask what is happening.

Yes refurb work can have unexpected issues. But a 6 month delay? No reason why taxpayers and passengers should be kept in the dark. By now a revised programme should be in place.

Rail projects not running to programme seems normal. What needs to happen though is communication with the public. The industry needs to learn how to do that much better. In a vacuum someone will fill it with some information or more likely speculation. The image of a project is key to long term success. Communication to your customers should be a priority not an afterthought.

 

[PHILIPE]

just wondering if FGW is having delays to their HST-GTi short sets? More power door mods at Wabtec.

FGW ? A bit behind the times. GWR are also having problems with only one set in use and that is on a trial set at the moment,

 

[connormill]

I'd like to think that they have a contingency plan up their sleeve should the HST programme be much further delayed. At the end of the day, you have one private company asking another private company to do something - we really are not entitled to know the ins and outs.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but woudn't the contingency just be continued use of Turbostars and Sprinters?

Delay the cascade to Northern and keep the 170's working along as is now. At the end of the day they are not bad units and have served that line well for the last few years.

I go between Aberdeen and Glasgow/Edinburgh and I agree that the HST's are better suited to the service but the 170's are far from bad

 

[SC318250]

6 x Class 170 (459/460/461/472/473/474) have left to Northern in last 3 days

 

[Highland37]

Wow, that is going to cause some pain!

It's looking, to me anyway, if the delay until the HST are ready will be longer than the 385 delay and the options to fill the gap are less. Accurate?

 

[connormill]

Wow, that is going to cause some pain!

It's looking, to me anyway, if the delay until the HST are ready will be longer than the 385 delay and the options to fill the gap are less. Accurate?

Just lease a load of pacers, that'll solve it!

 

[jhy44]

I disagree we are not entitled to know the ins and outs. Ultimately this is paid for by the taxpayer so we do have a legitimate question why the date in May was missed and now the July one as well. It is perfectly reasonable to ask what is happening.

Except no, it isn't being paid for by the taxpayer.
The taxpayer pays the Service Provider to deliver a contract and a service, not to do specific things. Without having seen the franchise specification or the signed contract and any variations to said contract, we can't comment on what the Supplier is contractually obliged to, and thus paid to, do.

Example being if you had a contract with a builder to 'build you a house by December'. You can't then demand to know why he hasn't installed windows by July, that isn't something he's contractually required to do. A lack of windows in December would then likely mean the 'house' isn't 'built' and reclamations could be pursued in court based on that.

I very much doubt that Abellio Scotrail are contractually obliged by a contract variation to 'introduce x amount of HSTs by x date', and I very much doubt that a fee was paid to them specifically earmarked for this.

Which is another issue with Privatisation, we don't have a right to know anything, Freedom of Information Requests can not be made.
Whereas were Scotrail a public concession, we'd (in most cases) have the right to know everything, and any expenditure being spent would be taxpayers money.

The cynic in me would suggest that that veil of secrecy and lack of public accountability is one of the main reasons public services in this country were privatised...

 

[TheMuttley]

I very much doubt that Abellio Scotrail are contractually obliged by a contract variation to 'introduce x amount of HSTs by x date', and I very much doubt that a fee was paid to them specifically earmarked for this.

I'm not sure that's quite right. Whilst this could certainly be strengthened (you'd like to think the Scottish government might learn from this and beef these requirements up, for future franchises), I think there is still a core requirement, in some form:-

(p.339) Clause 2.3 of Schedule 6.2 of the Abellio Scotrail Franchise Agreement (available here):

The Franchisee shall successfully deliver the following packages of work (according to project plans, and any subsequent revisions, approved by the Authority):
...
(f) Commercial preparedness: to amend any existing and develop a new passenger information strategy to support the introduction of the Rolling Stock and the Cascade Units

The current strategy seems to be "feed the passengers as little information as possible but make grand promises on timetables which are never realistic" (OK, yes, a bit harsh).

The strangest thing about this is that the normal defence of such "radio silence" from commercial entities (in relation to internal supply issues, such as these) is that details of operational or contractual developments would be considered commercially sensitive and divulging them would place them at a competitive disadvantage. Who exactly are Scotrail's competitors?! They have a state-issued monopoly, in the form of a franchise! Nobody can possibly benefit from any information, to be able to "compete" with them. Other than perhaps bus companies (no, I'm not serious)?! Or perhaps they'll cite national security next?

 

[scotraildriver]

What is there to tell? Wabtec are running behind with the coaches due to problems encountered after the work began. It could not have been foreseen. But it's in hand and will be / has been resolved, albeit being schedule. Driver training is continuing apace and the project is moving forward as planned, with a 3 month delay. Internally we have seen pictures of the completed train and it looks superb.There is a contingency plan bring formulated, however I'm not going to post details here or post any pictures either and I suspect no one else will either, as revealing details on a public forum could cost someone their job. Just because the general public don't know what's happening doesn't mean anything in terms of the project. There is no point publishing pictures of a half built train - details will be revealed in due course when there is something significant to report. Meantime everyone is working their socks off to get this done.

 

[Highland37]

Just to be clear, you are saying everything is going to plan apart from 3 months being added to the timetable?

 

[PHILIPE]

6 x Class 170 (459/460/461/472/473/474) have left to Northern in last 3 days

If the end of lease date has arrived that's it unless something over and above and which would require DFT and Transport for Scotland involvement could be negotiated. Retaining them would only cause timescale problems in their new TOC

 

[TheMuttley]

Just because the general public don't know what's happening doesn't mean anything in terms of the project

We (the public) know more about the delays to the latest Tesla car (now that is a commercially sensitive project) than we do about the delays to the Scotrail HST project.

revealing details on a public forum could cost someone their job

I'm amazed that you can't see the problem with this culture of secrecy that you so casually reference. Information strategies, managing expectations and a basic requirement to keep the public informed is a key part of running any business. These are even more important when running a railway franchise which is effectively a public service (even though it is delivered through the private franchise system). When will Scotrail understand that their most important stakeholder is the travelling public; the Scottish ministers merely act on behalf of the public.

I do understand that "everyone is working their socks off to get this done" - that's precisely my point. It doesn't take much to provide regular updates about the progress of the project. I'm not suggesting Scotrail need to conduct a huge PR event and plaster stations with posters... how about just a regular update via twitter or their website, with short, informative, honest progress updates, allowing those who are interested to understand. Who knows, you might even find that works to proactively fend off criticisms from passengers who are fed up with being squeezed on (what seems like) ever-shrinking trains, as the rolling stock cascade bites...