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Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

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Killingworth

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- Find an alternative route for the two freight trains per hour through Manchester!

I just hope the DfT have a plan to tackle the bottleneck issue because it is a problem that needs a money and a solution. He may claim to know very little about trains but Grayling has been asleep at the wheel on the issue of capacity through Manchester.

A freight underpass may be as easy as anything for them as they don't need to stop anywhere. At present they may get stopped in any of Deansgate, Oxford Road, Piccadilly or Stockport. I know, money and a practical way in and out of any freight tunnel.

Grayling isn't to blame for much of this. A chap called Patrick McLoughlin was in charge when much of it was being planned, or not planned. Even then it was those lower down who are at fault for not understanding how it would all fit together over time - like 5 jig-saws thrown on the floor with pieces missing!
 
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The Planner

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Liverpool loop: 4 New Brighton, 4 Chester, 4 West Kirby, 2 Ellesmere Port. That's 14tph.
Northern Line: 4 Ormskirk, 4 Kirkby, 4 Southport/Hunts X. That's 12tph, with 8 of those 12 terminating and reversing in a two platform station (Central).
LUL
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It can be done, it just needs planning properly and suitable rolling stock.
Liverpool loop is a 2 minute headway, so 14tph isn't excessive, it is less than 50% utilisation.
Sandhills to Liverpool Central is a 2½ minute headway and all lines with no mixed traffic. Thameslink core is a long way from being proven.
 

quantinghome

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Grayling isn't to blame for much of this. A chap called Patrick McLoughlin was in charge when much of it was being planned, or not planned. Even then it was those lower down who are at fault for not understanding how it would all fit together over time - like 5 jig-saws thrown on the floor with pieces missing!

But the transport minister is the only position where all the disparate pieces can be joined together in the present structure of the railways. That's one of the many reasons why the current structure needs to be changed, but even working in this system, Grayling should have been asking awkward questions. Where was the challenge to Network Rail about realistic dates for completing electrification? Why didn't alarm bells start ringing when the timetables didn't get produced by the normal deadline? Why didn't he tell the TOCs that if they were struggling to get workable timetables together they should delay the recast? These are fairly obvious things a SoS should be doing, or should be ensuring are done.
 

Altfish

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Liverpool loop: 4 New Brighton, 4 Chester, 4 West Kirby, 2 Ellesmere Port. That's 14tph.
Northern Line: 4 Ormskirk, 4 Kirkby, 4 Southport/Hunts X. That's 12tph, with 8 of those 12 terminating and reversing in a two platform station (Central).
LUL
Thameslink

It can be done, it just needs planning properly and suitable rolling stock.
It can be done when every train is similar type, metro style and electric.
How many freight per hour are on the Liverpool loop?
Oxford Road has Pacers, Sprinters, 319s, 350s, loco hauled passengers, plus freight.
 

fowler9

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It can be done when every train is similar type, metro style and electric.
How many freight per hour are on the Liverpool loop?
Oxford Road has Pacers, Sprinters, 319s, 350s, loco hauled passengers, plus freight.
Yeah, the loop on Merseyrail isn't really comparable. Everything the same going the same way round a single track loop. Even Central on the Northern Line isn't as complicated as the Castlefield corridor if that is what it is known as.
 

Ianno87

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Yeah, the loop on Merseyrail isn't really comparable. Everything the same going the same way round a single track loop. Even Central on the Northern Line isn't as complicated as the Castlefield corridor if that is what it is known as.

And the junction at the end of the core Merseyrail section (Hamilton Square) is grade separated.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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I fear this thread is starting to go round in circles though in a good-natured manner. Rather than add to the repetition I will simply say that with the benefit of hindsight it rather looks as if the decision to progress with the Ordsall Chord and Piccadilly 15/16 should have been on the basis of either both of them or neither of them. As for solutions I don't expect anything for as long as we have the current lame duck government, a disinterested SoS and a general aversion to spending public money.
 

Greybeard33

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There should certainly be an outright ban on terminating trains in Platforms 13/14, with financial penalties if the TOC fails to organise themselves such that this cannot be avoided.
I guess TPE prefers to terminate short in the through platforms, rather than divert via Guide Bridge, because the train then does not have to skip Victoria and Oxford Road in both directions (less Delay Repay liability). Plus the Airport passengers have a same platform change to/from another service.

TPE used to do this occasionally with the Scottish trains even before the timetable change.

From TPE's point of view, the consequent delays to Northern, EMT and ATW services are presumably just collateral damage!
 

Greybeard33

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I fear this thread is starting to go round in circles though in a good-natured manner. Rather than add to the repetition I will simply say that with the benefit of hindsight it rather looks as if the decision to progress with the Ordsall Chord and Piccadilly 15/16 should have been on the basis of either both of them or neither of them. As for solutions I don't expect anything for as long as we have the current lame duck government, a disinterested SoS and a general aversion to spending public money.
The Ordsall Chord and the Piccadilly/Oxford Road Capacity Scheme were both originally in Network Rail's CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan, as related Northern Hub packages.

The Train Service Requirements in the 2016 Northern Franchise Agreement were specifed by the DfT. These assumed that the extra capacity through the Oxford Road corridor would be available for the December 2019 timetable change, enabling a third hourly Chord service.

At the time the TWAO landed on the SoS's desk for approval, the project appeared to be on schedule for delivery in 2018. It was not until January 2017 that Mark Carne said that Network Rail would have to look again at the cost--benefit ratio, separately from the Ordsall Chord.
 

snowball

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At the time the TWAO landed on the SoS's desk for approval, the project appeared to be on schedule for delivery in 2018. It was not until January 2017 that Mark Carne said that Network Rail would have to look again at the cost--benefit ratio, separately from the Ordsall Chord.
Indeed if it had been approved on a reasonable timescale, workers and equipment would have transferred smoothly from the Chord to the Picc/Oxford Road project.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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You mean "uninterested". "Disinterested" means unbiased.

In terms of semantics you are quite right. In terms of the practical effects I'm not so sure. Grayling seems happy for rail projects to deliver just half-measures rather than doing a proper job. Perhaps this is unbiased as it demonstrates a willingness to prevent rail having some sort of priority over road!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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At the time the TWAO landed on the SoS's desk for approval, the project appeared to be on schedule for delivery in 2018. It was not until January 2017 that Mark Carne said that Network Rail would have to look again at the cost--benefit ratio, separately from the Ordsall Chord.

If Grayling had been in post at the time of the original Ordsall Chord proposals, I wonder how he would have viewed that particular project?
 
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Altfish

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I guess TPE prefers to terminate short in the through platforms, rather than divert via Guide Bridge, because the train then does not have to skip Victoria and Oxford Road in both directions (less Delay Repay liability). Plus the Airport passengers have a same platform change to/from another service.

TPE used to do this occasionally with the Scottish trains even before the timetable change.

From TPE's point of view, the consequent delays to Northern, EMT and ATW services are presumably just collateral damage!
Do we know where these short TPE services actually reverse?
I was caught up in a Newcastle train that I was catching from the Airport. We were told to catch a Scottish service to Piccadilly and catch the Newcastle train from there. When the Newcastle train arrived it had come from Ardwick or Longsight, it hadn't used the siding that ATW use.
 

bluenoxid

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I am very uninformed here but as I understand it there is already a decent penalty for terminating in busy stations/platforms because AFAIK the operator will be billed the consequential delays.
 

Altfish

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I am very uninformed here but as I understand it there is already a decent penalty for terminating in busy stations/platforms because AFAIK the operator will be billed the consequential delays.
The 'terminators' do not stay at the platform, they arrive in Platform 13, passengers disembark, then they head south (see my post#766) and return to Platform 14 as per the timetable.
 

Senex

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"Doesn't benefit London, rejected."
Good job Grayling wasn't there when the Chord was approved — if he hadn't managed to cancel it (as being only for one of those rather odd places in the north and so of no consequence for London) he's probably have had a try at de-scoping it to a single track on a much tighter curve and with a 10-mph line-speed.
 

Altfish

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Doesn't benefit Manchester either (unless P15/16 were also built) - rejected. It's been a disaster. They needed to take about 4tph off the Castlefield corridor, really.
Rubbish, it hasn't been a disaster. If as planned Oxford Road and Piccadilly had been remodelled it would have no problems. At least this element of the upgrade is done and dusted.
I for one have used it regularly and now I'm used to going to Platform 2 instead of 4 at Oxford Road it is a great advantage for me. I also like the fact that more TPE trains stop at Victoria, it is much better for tram connections, it is also (for westbound trains) on the level.
 

Greybeard33

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Do we know where these short TPE services actually reverse?
I was caught up in a Newcastle train that I was catching from the Airport. We were told to catch a Scottish service to Piccadilly and catch the Newcastle train from there. When the Newcastle train arrived it had come from Ardwick or Longsight, it hadn't used the siding that ATW use.
Most likely Longsight. The Mayfield Loop might have been reserved for the Northern Piccadilly to Blackpool service to reverse.

Andy Burnham, Greater Manchester mayor, was on the BBC Breakfast North West News today. He said it does not give a good impression to see trains queuing around the brand new Ordsall Chord. There had been a "serious lack of joined-up thinking" at the DfT, in failing to fund the new platforms.
 

Bantamzen

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Most likely Longsight. The Mayfield Loop might have been reserved for the Northern Piccadilly to Blackpool service to reverse.

Andy Burnham, Greater Manchester mayor, was on the BBC Breakfast North West News today. He said it does not give a good impression to see trains queuing around the brand new Ordsall Chord. There had been a "serious lack of joined-up thinking" at the DfT, in failing to fund the new platforms.

There's that phrase again....

The next public figure to use that phrase will be handed detention and made to write out the following a thousand times:

"DfT don't do joined up thinking!"

;)
 

Altfish

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If one lot of funding was available, it should have done 15/16 instead.
We would then be discussing the underused platforms at Piccadilly!
Oxford Road and Piccadilly 15/16 were due (Promised!!) in a later funding package, so completing the Ordsall Chord first made sense, especially when you see all the other development in the area that would have impeded construction of the chord if it had been already built.
 
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Bletchleyite

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We would then be discussing the underused platforms at Piccadilly!

They wouldn't be underused. They would have significantly improved punctuality and reliability on the Castlefield corridor, not to mention overcrowding on the platforms themselves.

15/16 was needed in the 1997 timetable (which had about 2/3 the number of services in the North West there are now), never mind now!
 

PR1Berske

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As a general question, how long will this thread stay alive, do we reckon?
 

Sceptre

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How long can he overlook the TWAO application?

He's lucky Parliament's in recess, otherwise the Select Committee would be having words.
 

Killingworth

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I
Andy Burnham, Greater Manchester mayor, was on the BBC Breakfast North West News today. He said it does not give a good impression to see trains queuing around the brand new Ordsall Chord. There had been a "serious lack of joined-up thinking" at the DfT, in failing to fund the new platforms.

It certainly doesn't create a good impression being in one of those trains and hearing the conductor describing the situation as normal. The not knowing if you will or won't make a connection, and if your final arrival time will be 5 or 50 minutes late.

It's all very well having a theoretical capacity of x trains per hour but, as many are now saying, it's one thing to have a series of the same class of trains on the same route with the same stops. It's something else when you have several stations at which some trains all stop, others only stop at one, some trains are 2 carriages, others may be up to 8, different classes, with very long freight services trying to run through non-stop in between them.

Most of the trains aren't standard local loop suburban type services. They pick up delays from as far away as Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Cleethorpes, Norwich, Liverpool and a whole lot more places I invite all to add in. The delays are diverse, many totally random, but some are quite predictable.

The more trains arriving into the Manchester area on time the better able Platforms 13 and 14 will be to maximise their capacity - obvious to us all, surely.

It's all those minutes here, there and everywhere that contribute to the state we're now in. It's the butterfly effect where one minor action creates a chain of ever increasing bigger actions.

One trivial example from my local station, but I'm willing to bet most readers will be able to think of one or two near them. The 7.14 TPE 185 to Manchester picks up about 100 in school term time. A recent victory, it usually now has 6 coaches, in two 3 car units, with first class in both, coaches lettered A-F. Many passengers have reservations. There'll be no prior announcement whether A will be at front (usually) or back.

Where do passengers wait? That's where a strategy is forming. It's only a 4 car platform so A-C will be in but all those wanting D-F will need to board through D. The huddle at one end of the platform may find they've got it wrong! Today F is at the front! Even if it's not A-C may have standees already so more go towards D. This is a 1 minute booked stop. That's only achieved on Fridays and 3 minutes is not unusual.

If we want to push more, and/or longer, trains through the network we need more micro mangement to look at little details all around the country. Tweeking of timetabling to have achievable times. Looking at more platform extentions. Through corridor connections on all new rolling stock to allow easy communication within trains. Smarter signalling. New passing loops where space is available (it wasn't just branch lines that the Beeching era axed).

The Northern Hub included a range of projects. Too many are stalled without realising the greater benefits for the north need them all in place. My little station is a single track, single platform bottleneck on the Sheffield-Manchester line thanks to a nonsensical decision in 1985 to remove 3 platforms and shorten the one that was left from 6 car to 4. The Hope Valley Capacity Scheme should have had that put right with trains due to run from December 2018. Despite the TWAO eventually getting the green light in February 2018 we still don't know when, or even if, work will start. Network Rail have said they hope in 2019, maybe trains running by December 2021, but it's gone exceedingly quiet! It's now looking as though that wasn't a green light at all, maybe not even a double amber!

The result is that the Hope Valley line will continue to contribute more delays across the country than it should. That's a small scheme. How many more little improvements across the nation are similarly being delayed?

Platforms 15 and 16 are the most obvious component part of this giant spiders web centred on Manchester. If not 15 and 16 a massive tunnelled solution needs to be found.

Happened to be by the Humber recently and came across the River Humber pipeline replacement project. It's a massive scheme including a large 5km tunnel to house a new pipeline below the Humber. We do do tunnelling in the north, quietly where few will notice. Under Manchester, and with a wider bore and overground access points may be rather more delicate - and expensive!

And there's the 23 mile tunnel being bored under the North York Moors for Sirius Minerals.

Is there the vision? Apparently there is if we can believe Jo Johnson, but in the meantime, and that probably means 10+ years, we're stuck with what we have now!
 
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