Does Croatia own its trains?

[Isabelle A]

Hi!

I'm about to go on holiday to Croatia and wanted to know a bit more about its trains before I go - don't know whether this is the right place to ask, but does anyone know whether HZ Putnicki Prijevoz owns its trains? I found a list here (http://www.railfaneurope.net/list/croatia/croatia_hz.html) but didn't know who they were owned by!

Thanks so much for any help.

 

[northwichcat]

My understanding is no. HŽ Vuča Vlakova doo own and maintain the rolling stock, HŽ Infrastruktura doo own and maintain the infrastructure, HŽ Putnički Prijevoz doo run passenger trains, HŽ Cargo doo run freight trains and all four companies are subsidiaries of state owned HŽ Holding.

In Croatia doo is the abbreviation used for a limited liability company, which by coincidence is the same combination of letters that mean driver only operation in the UK.

 

[MarcVD]

I'm just back from there, spent 3 weeks in June. I went there and back by train too. Railways in Croatia are falling appart. Slow speed, infrequent services... the bus bas taken over almost everywhere.

 

[Isabelle A]

Thanks so much! Shame to hear that it's falling apart, not looking forward to the idea of long bus journeys! Do you know if there are any international lines? Thinking of heading out from Zagreb to see Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia & Herz etc, and was hoping to do it by train, but it's not sounding hopeful! Also, I saw that there was a train from Zagreb to Zurich - is this true?

 

[northwichcat]

Bosnia & Herzegovina shut down a lot of it's network for renovations with no clear reopening date - I've no idea if that's finished. Chris Tarrant was affected by that when he filmed a series of Extreme Railways in former Yugoslavia and had to do most of the mileage in Bosnia & Herzegovina by road.

I'm not sure about Zagreb to Zurich but note Croatia is not part of the Schengen area so if that train does run it will likely be stopped on the border for a significant amount of time for passport checks.

 

[MarcVD]

I did go To Croatia and back by train. Way in from Brussels to Frankfurt and Wien, overnight there, and the day after, international train from Wien to Ljubjana via Graz (Semmering line), change in Zidani Most, and from there another international train from Ljubjana to Zagreb and Vinkovski. Very nice ride... Border control at the croatian border took some time but wasn't painful in any way.
Way back was via Villach and Munchen (overnight there) and then ICE to Brussels via Frankfurt. Nice ride too, still no special border hassle. Much less than in the ex-USSR republics anyway...

Indeed once you are in Croatia you immediately notice the bumpy track, the lower speed, the decrepit infrastructure... And when in Zagreb you see so few trains on the departure board, for a so large city, that you wonder whether people over there still use the train at all.

In the north, the service is still half-decent, but once you get to the south... 2 trains per day to go to split, 8 hours ride... The bus takes half the time. We looked at the possibility to get back from Zadar to Zagreb by train, but it takes 7 hours (including a 2 hours bus ride to catch one of the two daily trains in Knin, as there is a rail line to Zadar, but it does not operate) while it takes 4 hours by bus and 3 by car. So we gave up.

Internationally, only connections to Slovenia and Serbia are still available. There used to be an international train to Sarajevo but it stopped operating a few years ago because of a dispute between the two companies about track access charges. Seat61 explains how to go by train to the border, cross it by taxi, and take another train on the other side... There are no (never were) connections to Montenegro.

Zagreb to Zurich I don't believe that it exists, you probably confuse with the OBB Rail Jet from Zurich to Budapest. But it must be easy to do that with a change in Salsburg.

 

[northwichcat]

still no special border hassle. Much less than in the ex-USSR republics anyway...

Remember Croatia has to follow the same EU rules that we follow. It's when you cross in to Montenegro, Bosnia & Herzegovina and Serbia that different rules start applying. In Montenegro you must be registered at a local police station if remaining in the country for more than 24 hours (if applicable the tour operator or hotel might do that on your behalf.) If visiting either Montenegro or B&H as part of an organised group for a day trip you don't even get a stamp in your passport, a form with all passport holders in the group on gets stamped instead.

 

[MarcVD]

I'll see that when I get there. Every year I do a short train trip with my sons, least year it was the "massif central" lines in France, this year it was the Dampfspektakel in Trier, and next year if all goes well it will be the Belgrade-Bar line. So I'll see how it goes in Serbia and Montenegro. Looking for something like Vienna-Budapest-Beograd-Bar-Bari and then return to Belgium, exact way not specified yet (RhB?). Pity that the Bar-Bari ferry is not included in Interrail...

 

[eastwestdivide]

... Also, I saw that there was a train from Zagreb to Zurich - is this true?

According to bahn.de for tonight,
there's a Zagreb-Zurich overnight sleeper, train EN 414/NJ 414.
As well as a Zagreb-Munich overnight sleeper, EN 498.

 

[northwichcat]

I'll see that when I get there.

Might be a good idea to check entry requirements ahead of turning up, especially if you decide to to add Kosovo to your itinerary: https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks so much! Shame to hear that it's falling apart, not looking forward to the idea of long bus journeys! Do you know if there are any international lines? Thinking of heading out from Zagreb to see Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia & Herz etc, and was hoping to do it by train, but it's not sounding hopeful! Also, I saw that there was a train from Zagreb to Zurich - is this true?

There are a few through trains to Zagreb, running via the Tauern and Karawanken tunnels and Ljubljana, and day and/or night trains to Vienna, Budapest and Belgrade.
The Zagreb-Belgrade day train is actually posted to start overnight from Zurich, with coaches added at places like Schwarzach and Villach, but on the day I travelled (June), the entire train was taken out of service on arrival at Zagreb and a couple of fresh coaches appeared to form the day train to Belgrade.
They tried to detach one of these at Vinkovci, but as there was no hope of shoehorning everybody in to one Serbian coach, they relented and 2 coaches went on to Belgrade.
After a day without refreshments, we were astonished that a travelling ice-cream man appeared on the train in Serbia which improved the last lap no end.

Novska-Vinkovci (a long stretch of double track along the Sava) has been refurbished and seemed quite good at about 120km/h (75mph).
Zagreb-Dugo Selo, which is the junction for Budapest, has similarly been upgraded.
But Dugo Selo-Novska is still an old single track at no better than 80km/h with many local stops.
The stretch in Serbia is double track but in poor shape.
You also get the double HR/RS border checks, and they are thorough.
Beware the Belgrade train now uses the new Centar station in Belgrade, now the original station has closed.
The HR/SI border at Dobova is manned by both EU states so you get checked in quick succession while they change the loco (3kV DC to 25kV AC).

You can get some idea of train formations here: https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/vlak.php?zeme=CD&cislo=172&rok=2012&lang=en
HŽPP also has some nice modern Desiro trains for branch lines, but they are infrequent and desperately slow.
Gradually, lines damaged in the war are being brought back into service and refurbished.
The routes to Vienna (via Slovenia and Graz) and Budapest are due for upgrade in both countries.
All I can say about the trains is that they are better than those of Romania and Bulgaria.

Bosnia has some new Talgo trains sitting idle because the two entities and HR can't agree with each other on operational matters.
They were intended for a Sarajevo-Banja Luka-Zagreb service, but now do at least run Sarajevo-Mostar within Bosnia.
Montenegro (Podgorica, Bar) can be accessed from Belgrade on day/night trains.

I was amused to find that the Serbian locos on my trains to/from Belgrade had manufacturer plates showing they were built in Zagreb in JŽ days!

On ownership, I think all HR's track/trains are government owned, but there is considerable interest from China and Russia in all the Balkan networks.
Russia is upgrading routes in Serbia, and there is a large Chinese investment in the Belgrade-Subotica-Budapest upgrade.
I think Russia has taken over operation of the infrastructure in Bulgaria.

 

[MarcVD]

Ah yes, Dobova... I spent some time looking how this station works... It is the place where 3 kV Slovenian locos get exchanged with 25 kV Croatian ones. It is recent, because before the split of Yugoslavia, the 3/25 junction was much more to the south. It was built on the cheap, with electrical separation running straight in the middle of the station. Trains that do not cross the border must remain on 'their side' of the station, and those that cross the border must enter the station on their own momentum with the pantos down. The loco is then pushed to it's own side by a diesel shunter.

Previously, part of Croatia was also under 3 kV catenary and the junction somewhere (*) more to the south east on the Zagreb to Belgrade line. You can still see the typically italian tubular catenary masts everywhere, now sustaining a 25 kV catenary. I suppose that Croatian railways wanted to have one power system only.

(*) I did that line 40 years ago on my way to Athens but do not remember where it was exactly, just that we waited for hours under the sun, in the middle of nowhere, for our 25 kV loco to arrive...

 

[MarcVD]

Here is a pictures of Zagreb station, found on the net, when it sas still under 3 kV =.

 

[riceuten]

Remember Croatia has to follow the same EU rules that we follow. It's when you cross in to Montenegro, Bosnia & Herzegovina and Serbia that different rules start applying. In Montenegro you must be registered at a local police station if remaining in the country for more than 24 hours (if applicable the tour operator or hotel might do that on your behalf.) If visiting either Montenegro or B&H as part of an organised group for a day trip you don't even get a stamp in your passport, a form with all passport holders in the group on gets stamped instead.

I think that's the theory (I think you're supposed to do so in Serbia as well) - I have never, ever been asked for any proof of this on my numerous visits, and have stayed in the country in private homes

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All the former Yugoslav states not fully in the EU have association agreements with the EU.
This means they are effectively in the customs union, but are at different points along the way to full membership (single market, free movement etc).
Turkey also has an association agreement.

 

[northwichcat]

All the former Yugoslav states not fully in the EU have association agreements with the EU.
This means they are effectively in the customs union, but are at different points along the way to full membership (single market, free movement etc).

Well if you go to Bosnia & Herzegovina or Montengero you'll certainly notice something unusual about the currencies. In Bosnia & Herzegovina the non-exportable Bosnian Mark is a fixed rate against the Euro which means if the value of the pound against the Euro drops you'll also get fewer Bosnian Marks for your pound, yet in the EU country of Croatia the Kuna is independent of the Euro and the value of the pound against the Kuna can increase at the same time as the value of the pound against the Euro is falling - something that has happened in recent years. In places which get a lot of tourists in B&H they will happily take Euros off you without the need to exchange them (and unlike other countries they won't give a rubbish exchange rate for not using the local currency.) If what a tour guide said is correct Montengero has the Euro because it's own currency collapsed and due to a high number of German soliders being based in the area at the time the Deutsche Mark become pretty much universally accepted which was obviously replaced by the Euro, with the country since having come to an agreement with the EU that they can use the Euro but can't produce Montengero branded coins, unlike EU countries can produce their own coins.

However, crossing from the EU to either Bosnia & Herzegovina or Montengero it's very obvious you're going through a hard EU external border, not just a border between an EU Schengen country and an EU non-Schengen country. Although, visas aren't required for EU nationals.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

However, crossing from the EU to either Bosnia & Herzegovina or Montengero it's very obvious you're going through a hard EU external border, not just a border between an EU Schengen country and an EU non-Schengen country. Although, visas aren't required for EU nationals.

I still have several thousand useless Yugoslav Dinars from a visit to Montenegro in 1966!
In those days the internal state borders weren't even marked, you were just aware that the signs began to be in Cyrillic as you entered Montenegro from Croatia.
I was just too late to sample the narrow gauge steam lines which still ran through BiH to Dubrovnik and also to Nikšić in inland Montenegro.
Luckily Dave Sallery has documented those lines from his trips around the same time. http://www.penmorfa.com/JZ/index.htm
The Titograd-Bar line had just been opened (now runs all the way to Belgrade).

 

[Cloud Strife]

If what a tour guide said is correct Montengero has the Euro because it's own currency collapsed and due to a high number of German soliders being based in the area at the time the Deutsche Mark become pretty much universally accepted which was obviously replaced by the Euro

No, not true. What actually happened was that the DM was always used as a hard currency in socialist Yugoslavia. People would keep their savings in DM, not in Yugoslav dinars, partially because the Yugoslav dinar was unstable (although convertible, unlike most socialist currencies). After the end of socialist Yugoslavia, the new federal Yugoslavia had a dreadful dinar, with Milosević playing all sorts of games with it, including hyperinflation. Throughout that time, the DM was a hard currency. Montenegro were trying to break away from Serbia economically to get away from Milosević's idiotic handling of the economy, and the adoption of the DM was part of that. Montenegro had also a separate customs regime (or zone) from the late 1990's onwards from Serbia, despite them both being in federal Yugoslavia.

There were certainly no German soldiers in Montenegro in the late 1990's.

However, crossing from the EU to either Bosnia & Herzegovina or Montengero it's very obvious you're going through a hard EU external border, not just a border between an EU Schengen country and an EU non-Schengen country. Although, visas aren't required for EU nationals.

It depends where. There are plenty of border crossings between Croatia and BiH where they could barely care less, both on the Croatian and on the BiH sides. In fact, the most detailed control I've ever had (in 50+ border crossings between Croatia and another country) was on the Slovenian-Croatian border after Croatia joined the EU.

This means they are effectively in the customs union

No, absolutely not. They are firmly outside it, though linked to it through CEFTA.

 

[northwichcat]

^ It was @LNW-GW Joint who made the customs union claim. The way the quotes have gone make it look like it as me.

It depends where. There are plenty of border crossings between Croatia and BiH where they could barely care less, both on the Croatian and on the BiH sides. In fact, the most detailed control I've ever had (in 50+ border crossings between Croatia and another country) was on the Slovenian-Croatian border after Croatia joined the EU.

I crossed the borders in 2017 after the EU tighten their border controls in response to terror threats and I'm pretty sure the stricter border controls remain in place.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Changed, sorry!

Those checks really depend on the border in question. What I've noticed is that the more that a crossing is used by locals (even if it's an international crossing), the less interested they are in anyone who is white and holds an EU passport.

What is frightening is the barbed wire on the Croatian-Slovenian border, even though the actual controls are a joke.

 

[northwichcat]

Those checks really depend on the border in question. What I've noticed is that the more that a crossing is used by locals (even if it's an international crossing), the less interested they are in anyone who is white and holds an EU passport.

The only unusual observation I noticed was allowing the drivers/guides on buses and coaches to collect all passenger's passports at some crossings and the police boarding the vehicle to collect passports in person (checking the photos match in the process) at other crossings.

What is frightening is the barbed wire on the Croatian-Slovenian border, even though the actual controls are a joke.

Well barbed wire fence is better than the warning that landmines from the Balkans war may remain and meaning it as along the Croatia-Bosnia border!