Inspector accused me of ticket fraud

[Amy6789]

A ticket inspector took my ticket away as I couldn’t provide a railcard to prove the validity of the discounted ticket. He said he would be sending off the ticket to be traced (some kind of fraud office maybe?) and to expect a letter in the mail and there could be a hefty fine due to fraud. I paid for a new ticket after.
He didn’t take any of my details - I think he thought someone else bought it? But he was very stern.
I don’t want to go into much detail about the railcard on here.
Can they trace paper tickets and find out who bought it (card info), use cctv and then send a letter with a fine or more? Never knew they could go into this much tracing but that’s what it sounded like. Or was it likely a comment intending to scare?

Help!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was the ticket bought from a TVM or online? It would be very easy for them to trace an online purchase and I would think they may well do. Tracing via a card purchase from a TVM or ticket office, while possible, is much more hassle for them and so much less likely.

Either way there is a lesson, don't forget your Railcard, and if you didn't actually have one or it was someone else's that is fraud and his description was correct.

 

[Amy6789]

Was the ticket bought from a TVM or online? It would be very easy for them to trace an online purchase and I would think they may well do. Tracing via a card purchase from a TVM or ticket office, while possible, is much more hassle for them and so much less likely.

Either way there is a lesson, don't forget your Railcard, and if you didn't actually have one or it was someone else's that is fraud and his description was correct.

Can they actually do anything if I can prove I just forgot my railcard and left it at home?
Bought at ticket office not online

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can they actually do anything if I can prove I just forgot my railcard and left it at home?
Bought at ticket office not online

A Byelaw prosecution would be possible, yes, as this is strict liability.

If they do contact you the first thing they will do is ask you to explain in your own words what happened. You need to be honest doing this, as if they find you to be lying later the consequences will be much worse. If you send a copy of the new ticket you purchased this will also help though not absolve you of blame. Also be apologetic and honest that you will not do it again.

What they might (then) do is:-
1. Nothing, either because tracing the transaction is too much effort or because they believe you it was a genuine mistake, assuming it was.
2. Ask you to pay the Anytime (Day) Single fare for the journey.
3. Offer you an out of court settlement of typically £80-100 plus the Anytime (Day) Single fare.
4. Prosecute you under the Byelaws. This is not recordable, but will result, if convicted, in a low to middle 3 figure Court fine.
5. Prosecute you under the Regulation of Railways Act, if they believe you actively committed fraud. This is recordable (does appear on a DBS check) and will result in a higher fine than (4).

If they do send you a Summons, you can still offer them an out of court settlement and would be advised to do so (suitably apologetically and explaining that you will never do it again). If you do do it again, expect it to go straight to (4) or (5) with no settlement option.

OTOH, I suspect they will not pursue it as tracking you via your card is a lot of effort on their part.

You will just have to wait a month or two and see if a letter arrives at your cardholder address or that registered against your Railcard.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Can they actually do anything if I can prove I just forgot my railcard and left it at home?
Bought at ticket office not online

The correct thing to have done in the event of discovering you have forgotten your Railcard when you check your tickets and Railcards at the station before getting on the train (as I am sure you, as would any other diligent passenger, do) would be to buy a new non-Railcard-discounted ticket before travelling.

You can then obtain a refund of this new ticket after travelling, from the relevant train company's customer services, upon sending them a photo of (or the originals, if you prefer) your original and unused Railcard discounted ticket, plus the new but used undiscounted ticket which you bought, as well as your valid Railcard (of course, don't send this physically in!). You are entitled to do this once per 12 month period. The procedure is enshrined in Conditions 8.5 to 8.7 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT).

 

[Amy6789]

A Byelaw prosecution would be possible, yes, as this is strict liability.

If they do contact you the first thing they will do is ask you to explain in your own words what happened. You need to be honest doing this, as if they find you to be lying later the consequences will be much worse. If you send a copy of the new ticket you purchased this will also help though not absolve you of blame. Also be apologetic and honest that you will not do it again.

What they might (then) do is:-
1. Nothing, either because tracing the transaction is too much effort or because they believe you it was a genuine mistake, assuming it was.
2. Ask you to pay the Anytime (Day) Single fare for the journey.
3. Offer you an out of court settlement of typically £80-100 plus the Anytime (Day) Single fare.
4. Prosecute you under the Byelaws. This is not recordable, but will result, if convicted, in a low to middle 3 figure Court fine.
5. Prosecute you under the Regulation of Railways Act, if they believe you actively committed fraud. This is recordable (does appear on a DBS check) and will result in a higher fine than (4).

If they do send you a Summons, you can still offer them an out of court settlement and would be advised to do so (suitably apologetically and explaining that you will never do it again). If you do do it again, expect it to go straight to (4) or (5) with no settlement option.

OTOH, I suspect they will not pursue it as tracking you via your card is a lot of effort on their part.

You will just have to wait a month or two and see if a letter arrives at your cardholder address or that registered against your Railcard.

I’m intrigued as to why they didn’t ask any of my contact info there and then?

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m intrigued as to why they didn’t ask any of my contact info there and then?

Since they didn’t do this, they don’t know who you are. They will not be able to prove who travelled by looking up who bought the ticket.

The inspector was just giving you a stern talking to, and you bought a new ticket.

I expect nothing else will happen now.

 

[Haywain]

The inspector should not have retained the discounted ticket. He was correct to insist on you purchasing a new undiscounted ticket, but if you had left your railcard at home you would be permitted to claim back the fare on production of the railcard. With the ticket being retained you have no evidence of having purchased a discounted ticket and therefore stand to have paid for the journey twice. I would advise contacting the TOC regarding this as it is (or appears to be) incorrect behaviour by the ticket inspector.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The inspector should not have retained the discounted ticket. He was correct to insist on you purchasing a new undiscounted ticket, but if you had left your railcard at home you would be permitted to claim back the fare on production of the railcard. With the ticket being retained you have no evidence of having purchased a discounted ticket and therefore stand to have paid for the journey twice. I would advise contacting the TOC regarding this as it is (or appears to be) incorrect behaviour by the ticket inspector.

That would probably be a bad idea - for if the OP contacts the TOC then they obtain his name. They could then prosecute him/her (yes, even if they don't have the address - otherwise how would persons with no fixed address be prosecuted!).

 

[father_jack]

That whole situation described by the OP doesn't make sense. The excess should have been charged for no railcard or if it was actually an RPI a UFN given that would be cancelled on appeal if a railcard is later produced as an appeal. RPIs issue a UFN so persistent offenders get recorded at least. A new ticket could have been done and refunded on production of the railcard but that's just lazy or commission grabbing.

 

[221129]

That whole situation described by the OP doesn't make sense. The excess should have been charged for no railcard or if it was actually an RPI a UFN given that would be cancelled on appeal if a railcard is later produced as an appeal. RPIs issue a UFN so persistent offenders get recorded at least. A new ticket could have been done and refunded on production of the railcard but that's just lazy or commission grabbing.

This is incorrect. The rules state that it is a new ticket.

 

[father_jack]

This is incorrect. The rules state that it is a new ticket.

Not in the retail instructions I work from.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not in the retail instructions I work from.

Some TOCs will do an excess prior to boarding, but on the train AFAIAA it's a new ticket, as otherwise why wouldn't people just try it on every time?

 

[142blue]

Not in the retail instructions I work from.

Me too, sell the excess, refund upon presentation of

Original ticket
Excess paid
Railcard
Card receipt where needed

 

[AlterEgo]

I suspect the instructions differ based on whether you work in a booking office or onboard..?

 

[142blue]

My feeling is yes but then what if you only realise you left your railcard at home when you got on the train

 

[Haywain]

That would probably be a bad idea - for if the OP contacts the TOC then they obtain his name. They could then prosecute him/her (yes, even if they don't have the address - otherwise how would persons with no fixed address be prosecuted!).

That depends on whether this statement:

I paid for a new ticket after.

came into play at the time, and the new ticket was bought from the same inspector, or at some later point. The OP isn't very clear on this.

 

[Amy6789]

Since they didn’t do this, they don’t know who you are. They will not be able to prove who travelled by looking up who bought the ticket.

The inspector was just giving you a stern talking to, and you bought a new ticket.

I expect nothing else will happen now.

Okay thanks

That depends on whether this statement:came into play at the time, and the new ticket was bought from the same inspector, or at some later point. The OP isn't very clear on this.

When he took the ticket off me and walked off I decided to get off the train as he was talking about fines etc and I then knew I’d left my railcard at home so just wanted to avoid him. I then bought another normal ticket on the platform and got on the next train

 

[AlterEgo]

Unfortunately the railcard has my name on which would be the same as my bank card and would only be allowed to buy the ticket for myself.

He doesn’t have your railcard though does he? You didn’t have it with you.

You also don’t need to say what the name on the railcard is when booking.

The inspector has no idea who you are and can take no action.

 

[Amy6789]

He doesn’t have your railcard though does he? You didn’t have it with you.

You also don’t need to say what the name on the railcard is when booking.

The inspector has no idea who you are and can take no action.

Okay thanks

 

[scrapy]

Okay the only way I was thinking is by finding where I paid and card name used to pay but that’s a long process!

They may have a card name but they don't have your address. They are probably several people in the UK withbthe same name as you. Unlikely to go any further unless you meet the same member of staff again with another ticket irregularity.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

They may have a card name but they don't have your address. They are probably several people in the UK withbthe same name as you. Unlikely to go any further unless you meet the same member of staff again with another ticket irregularity.

Exactly, plus it is perfectly permissible to buy a ticket for someone else - so the card name is not necessarily the name of the passenger, and they can't make the assumption that the two are the same (though in perhaps 70-80% of cases the person buying the ticket will indeed be the one using it).

 

[gray1404]

The OP need to tell us what sort of railcard they were travelling on. It could be that they are entitled to claim back from the TOC (or try to) for a simple railcard left at home. So the person checking tickets just took the ticket off them and walked away. Imagine if there had have been a revenue block or ticket check on the platform too. "The Inspector on the train took my ticket off me" I doubt would wash.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

"The Inspector on the train took my ticket off me" I doubt would wash.

Exactly this is the reason that it is usual procedure to issue a zero-fare ticket when an existing ticket is withdrawn.

 

[island]

If you bought your ticket at a station and the inspector hasn’t taken any details from you then you are not going to be tracable and nothing further can happen.