TGV duplex, would it fit through the channel tunnel?

[InterCity:125]

if this is in the wrong sub forum please correct it.

Basically I saw this picture of a parcel tgv in st Pancras and wondered wether a tgv Duplex could fit through and get along hs1 to st Pancras with the current loading gauge.

Thanks in advance for any information.

 

[dgl]

I believe the tunnel itself it built to a very generous loading gauge to accommodate the Eurotunnel le shuttle trains so width/height wise it should be fine and as for HS1 that is essentially a French high speed line so any TGV should fit fine.
The only issue I can see I the height of the overhead wire in the tunnel.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The only issue I can see I the height of the overhead wire in the tunnel.

The tunnel can accommodate double deck car transporters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurotunnel_Shuttle

 

[Domh245]

The tunnel can accommodate double deck car transporters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurotunnel_Shuttle

The issue is more likely to be if the pantographs will reach it rather than if they'll be too close to the train! AIUI the class 9s, 92s, and eurostar stock have all got pantographs with a higher reach than most, but I'm not sure if this will have been done with regular TGVs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Standard TGVs won't have the fire protection standards or operational characteristics of the Eurostar sets, necessary to run through the Channel Tunnel.
There will probably be signalling complications at St Pancras too where the SNCF system gives way to the UK standard.
So no prospect of a regular TGV making it through the tunnel to London under its own power.
It might be possible for some version of the TGV family to run on HS2 in captive mode when it comes (using ERTMS), but DfT are only ordering classic-compatible trains initially which rules out standard continental designs as they are over-size for the classic GB network.

 

[AlexNL]

From a technical point of view, the TGV Duplex sets should fit in the Channel Tunnel. I think that the 3rd generation, the Euroduplex, would meet channel tunnel fire safety regulations. There are strict fire regulations for the Le Perthus tunnel between France and Spain, which these trains meet. For example, there are automatic fire doors specifically for said tunnel. The train length however might still be an issue.

The HS1 part of St. Pancras station is equipped with the French "lignes classiques" KVB system, so there should not be an issue with signalling.

 

[InterCity:125]

So Eurostar could operate duplexes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So Eurostar could operate duplexes?

I can see no reason why not, but I'm glad they instead chose an ICE variant - much more spacious. Shame they didn't replicate the classy DB interior.

 

[InterCity:125]

I can see no reason why not, but I'm glad they instead chose an ICE variant - much more spacious. Shame they didn't replicate the classy DB interior.

Kind of funny as the Eurostar is operated by SNCF who have their perfectly good TGVs and they decide to get German trains.

 

[Ianno87]

From a technical point of view, the TGV Duplex sets should fit in the Channel Tunnel. I think that the 3rd generation, the Euroduplex, would meet channel tunnel fire safety regulations. There are strict fire regulations for the Le Perthus tunnel between France and Spain, which these trains meet. For example, there are automatic fire doors specifically for said tunnel. The train length however might still be an issue.

The HS1 part of St. Pancras station is equipped with the French "lignes classiques" KVB system, so there should not be an issue with signalling.

I understand that the TVM-430 signalling on the majority of HS1 is very slightly different to the TVM-430 used in France. That's why when the La Poste TGV visited St Pancras, it had to be dragged there by a diesel loco.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Kind of funny as the Eurostar is operated by SNCF who have their perfectly good TGVs and they decide to get German trains.

Siemens and Alstom will be the same company next year anyway (as far as train building and signalling is concerned).
Be interesting to see which designs prevail in the longer term.

 

[Bald Rick]

Gauge ok
Signalling ok (all the way to St P; it is French KVB for the last bit to the bufferstops)
OLE ok

Channel tunnel fire protection not ok.

So no.

 

[InterCity:125]

Siemens and Alstom will be the same company next year anyway (as far as train building and signalling is concerned).
Be interesting to see which designs prevail in the longer term.

I didnt know they were merging on train stuff

 

[pdeaves]

Kind of funny as the Eurostar is operated by SNCF who have their perfectly good TGVs and they decide to get German trains.

Eurostar is partly owned by SNCF. They didn't so much 'decide to get German trains' as 'awarded the contract to the most suitable company as determined within the bidding rules, which happened to be German'.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Has anyone bought the Alstom AGV?

 

[Aictos]

Kind of funny as the Eurostar is operated by SNCF who have their perfectly good TGVs and they decide to get German trains.

Not entirely accurate as Eurostar is managed by Eurostar International Limited which is owned by
SNCF (55%), Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec (CDPQ) (30%), Hermes Infrastructure (10%) and NMBS (5%).

Gauge ok
Signalling ok (all the way to St P; it is French KVB for the last bit to the bufferstops)
OLE ok

Channel tunnel fire protection not ok.

So no.

Although if they wanted to, they could do a TGV Duplex design that is acceptable and meets all current safety requirements.

A side note, as to Eurostar placing a order of TGV Duplex's the other thing to remember is they run as 10 car sets with a seating of 508 seats vs the 902 seats provided from the 16 car Siemens Velaro sets as a reminder the Class 373s with 18 coaches provided 750 seats

The question is IF Eurostar were interested in operating TGV Duplexs that were suitable, what services could they have been used on?

 

[eisenach]

Has anyone bought the Alstom AGV?

Just on the French television news: SNCF has placed an order with Alstom for 100 new TGV sets. The report didn't say what the type was that has been ordered, but I assume it would be the new AGV; the photos used certainly looked like those of the AGV I've seen previously.

 

[Aictos]

Just on the French television news: SNCF has placed an order with Alstom for 100 new TGV sets. The report didn't say what the type was that has been ordered, but I assume it would be the new AGV; the photos used certainly looked like those of the AGV I've seen previously.

Indeed they are as this press release states, apologies but I can't find anything more recent.

FRANCE: Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire has said that the government is to place a firm order with Alstom ‘by the end of June’ for 100 TGV trainsets. He was addressing a press conference on March 22 to update progress on the merger of Siemens Mobility and Alstom.


These would be the first build of a next generation of high speed trainset being developed under the ‘TGV of the future’ programme launched by Alstom and SNCF in September 2016. Due to enter service in 2022-23, the design is intended to reduce acquisition and operating costs by at least 20%, with the ‘material recyclability rate’ increased to over 90% and energy consumption reduced by at least 25%.


The next-generation TGV would have a more modular interior and is expected to offer a 20% increase in capacity, carrying around 700 passengers compared to approximately 500 in existing TGVs. Passengers would also be offered improved onboard services and connectivity. The value of the order is estimated to be €2·5bn.


The trainsets are expected to share the short-wheelbase power car already developed for the Avelia Liberty trainsets which Alstom is supplying to Amtrak for use on the Boston – New York – Washington DC Northeast Corridor, and which the company has proposed for the High Speed 2 route in the UK.


According to Le Maire, the board of SNCF Mobilités is expected to sign off the contract ‘either at the end of April or the end of June’ and would use the fleet to replace its older TGV PSE and Atlantique trainsets which date from the 1980s. Le Maire said that the government order would be ‘good news’ for staff at Alstom’s plants in La Rochelle and Belfort.

Link to article here

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not entirely accurate as Eurostar is managed by Eurostar International Limited which is owned by
SNCF (55%), Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec (CDPQ) (30%), Hermes Infrastructure (10%) and NMBS (5%).



Although if they wanted to, they could do a TGV Duplex design that is acceptable and meets all current safety requirements.

A side note, as to Eurostar placing a order of TGV Duplex's the other thing to remember is they run as 10 car sets with a seating of 508 seats vs the 902 seats provided from the 16 car Siemens Velaro sets as a reminder the Class 373s with 18 coaches provided 750 seats

The question is IF Eurostar were interested in operating TGV Duplexs that were suitable, what services could they have been used on?

One option (hypothetically) would be the existing Three Capitals (Four Capitals incl. Amsterdam?) services, but with higher capacity trains so that an "economy" class could be introduced.

Eurostar don't seem to be interested in competing with the budget airlines though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I didnt know they were merging on train stuff

That's the whole purpose of the 50-50 Siemens Alstom joint venture.
Siemens will lead on train manufacture and Alstom on signalling, but rail resources of both companies will be merged.
It's well on the way to implementation, although the EU has launched a competition enquiry as it concentrates a lot of market power in one group.
They may have to sell off some capability to satisfy competition concerns.

On the SNCF TGV orders, they have large frame agreements with Alstom for TGV and Regional trains, sponsored by the French government.
Bombardier (in France) also has similar frame agreements for the Regional trains.
SNCF then calls off tranches of trains to meet their requirements and those of the French Regions (TER services), without a procurement competition.
It's how the French have locked in domestic train manufacturing for a long period.
Eurostar is not, however, domestic.

The nearest recent British attempt to direct orders to domestic manufacturers was with the class 387s.
Southern procured the initial tranche of 387s, and then on behalf of the DfT called off several repeat orders without any real competition, to be compatible with 387s.
The resultant large fleet of 387s is now in service with several TOCs.

 

[pdeaves]

EU has launched a competition enquiry as it concentrates a lot of market power in one group

I find it interesting that the EU, governments, etc. insist on a free market and competition, but when parts of the free market decide to merge to improve their competitiveness, they get jittery.

 

[MarcVD]

Free market and competition require more than one competitor to work well. That's what the EU wants to endure. Same as anti trust laws in USA.

 

[MarcVD]

Has anyone bought the Alstom AGV?

Yes, .Italo.

And no, the recent french order is not for the AGV. AGV is single deck, SNCF wants double deckers. The train they have ordered does not exist yet. But it will certainly re-use lots of AGV components.

 

[AlexNL]

I understand that the TVM-430 signalling on the majority of HS1 is very slightly different to the TVM-430 used in France. That's why when the La Poste TGV visited St Pancras, it had to be dragged there by a diesel loco.

As far as my understanding of TVM goes, the difference is related to system configuration. When entering a TVM-430 section the train receives information about which route it is on (the "code de réseau"), which is then used to look up parameters relating to the specific route. If the train does not recognise the route code, it can't operate on that route.

However, I think there is a different reason as to why the TGV La Poste had to be dragged: electromagnetic interference. The train has never been on British soil before, so it is not known if there is any negative impact on the surrounding railway caused by that specific train. Keep in mind that a TGV La Poste is from the early eighties, while the Eurostar TGVs were built more than a decade later - the technology in them is completely different. The DB ICE3MF's which visited StP in 2010 also had to be dragged (they also have TVM), as does Iris 320.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

A side note, as to Eurostar placing a order of TGV Duplex's the other thing to remember is they run as 10 car sets with a seating of 508 seats vs the 902 seats provided from the 16 car Siemens Velaro sets as a reminder the Class 373s with 18 coaches provided 750 seats

There is, presumably, nothing technical stopping them building a longer version of the double deck TGV, but the power to weight ratio would suffer somewhat. They also have the drawback of having power cars rather than distributed traction, which affects their passenger capacity.

 

[LLivery]

Just on the French television news: SNCF has placed an order with Alstom for 100 new TGV sets. The report didn't say what the type was that has been ordered, but I assume it would be the new AGV; the photos used certainly looked like those of the AGV I've seen previously.

They're a new Duplex; Avelia Horizon seems to be the name

See artist impression on link:
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/...r-100-next-generation-very-high-speed-trains/

The Board of Directors of SNCF Mobilités has approved a firm order for 100 next-generation Avelia Horizon very high speed trains (TGV[1]) at its meeting on 26 July 2018.

This new generation of very high speed trains addresses to ambitious goals in terms of competitiveness of the rail sector and profitability for SNCF, with a total acquisition cost 20% lower than that of the previous generation. The teams of experts working on this project for two years have risen to the challenge of specifying a new train at a reduced cost of €25 million per trainset, with an additional budget of €190 million for options and services[2].

Avelia Horizon will consist of two innovative power cars of reduced length, combining high performance and compactness, and articulated double-deck passenger cars. Their design allows for a 20% increase in passenger-dedicated areas, allowing the train to accommodate up to 740 passengers in the highest-capacity configuration chosen by SNCF.

Maintenance costs will be more than 30% lower than those currently recorded by SNCF. The train’s maintainability is taken into account from the design stage, with a remote diagnostic system for predictive maintenance, which improves the trains’ reliability and availability. Many of the components have an optimised design to simplify, reduce, and allow longer intervals between maintenance interventions. Thanks to its aerodynamic design and a more efficient traction drive, the next-generation TGV will consume 20% less energy than existing TGVs.

“This order is the successful fruit of the collaborative work of SNCF and Alstom. Alstom's Avelia Horizon solution meets the technological, economic and competitiveness challenges of SNCF,” said Henri Poupart-Lafarge, Chief Executive Officer of Alstom.

 

[InterCity:125]

See artist impression on link:
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/...r-100-next-generation-very-high-speed-trains/

I know it probably helps to further streamline the Vehicle, but I prefer the front of the current TGVs

 

[LLivery]

As to I. The locomotive (if you can call it that on a TGV) looks very similar to the new Alstom "Avelia Liberty" sets for Amtrak. I'm surprised Alstom are sticking with locos considering the AGV isn't loco hauled.

 

[MarcVD]

There is, presumably, nothing technical stopping them building a longer version of the double deck TGV, but the power to weight ratio would suffer somewhat. They also have the drawback of having power cars rather than distributed traction, which affects their passenger capacity.

A project existed for that, two duplex TGVs permanently coupled, with in the middle two power cars without driving cabin. Finally wasn't built.

 

[TRAX]

As to I. The locomotive (if you can call it that on a TGV) looks very similar to the new Alstom "Avelia Liberty" sets for Amtrak. I'm surprised Alstom are sticking with locos considering the AGV isn't loco hauled.

That’s SNCF really wanting to stick with end power units.
That’s why it’s not an AGV, as the AGV has distributed power.