Chris Grayling abandons plans for a seperate Devon and Cornwall Franchise

[Woody]

According to my local BBC South West "Spotlight" news programme (24th July) the government has abandoned any idea of splitting the GWR franchise in the far south west. It also said that that there would be no cuts now to Cross Country services in the SW where services to Torbay were under threat.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bbxnvn/spotlight-late-news-24072018

 

[irish_rail]

Common sense prevails for a change.

 

[class26]

Common sense prevails for a change.

More like all those marginal seats in the west country !

 

[Surreytraveller]

Maybe he's learning not to tit about with things for no reason

 

[centraltrains]

It also said that that there would be no cuts now to Cross Country services in the SW where services to Torbay were under threat.

Well as long as they actually get more trains in the next franchise... That should be good! Hopefully this perhaps points to that...

More like all those marginal seats in the west country !

Yes, very marginal chance of getting a seat on a cross country train!

 

[cuccir]

I thought he didn't run the railways?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Grayling also promised "more or longer" XC trains for the south west in the next franchise yesterday, rather than any cuts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good. Despite GWR having some "being part of First" related shortcomings, splitting that franchise off and so losing all the benefits of integration and coordinated promotions would have been madness.

 

[class26]

Grayling also promised "more or longer" XC trains for the south west in the next franchise yesterday, rather than any cuts.

He will have to sort out the Voyagers or this will means more HST`s going west of Exeter ?
That is unless the new franchisee opts for an entirely new fleet !

 

[kje7812]

He will have to sort out the Voyagers or this will means more HST`s going west of Exeter ?
That is unless the new franchisee opts for an entirely new fleet !

Considering most recent new franchise awards, probably new fleet.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Considering most recent new franchise awards, probably new fleet.

I, as well as a few other posters here, thought XC might get all the EMT Meridians, as EMT is definitely getting new stock for the next franchise. But now it doesn't sound as if that's happening. I would have thought that would make sense, since they could probably just expand Central Rivers and then have a conveniently located manufacturer's maintenance depot.

 

[kje7812]

I, as well as a few other posters here, thought XC might get all the EMT Meridians, as EMT is definitely getting new stock for the next franchise. But now it doesn't sound as if that's happening. I would have thought that would make sense, since they could probably just expand Central Rivers and then have a conveniently located manufacturer's maintenance depot.

That would make sense if there was longer between the EM and XC franchise awards. If it was, then the gap between the start of the XC franchise and when the 222s are displaced would make it worth taking them on. If the XC franchise award isn't pushed back then both are being awarded next year.
Also IIRC 222s can't multi-work with 220s and 221 due to the electronics(?).
As it is, with the gap being so short, I reckon they will just order new stock.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That would make sense if there was longer between the EM and XC franchise awards. If it was, then the gap between the start of the XC franchise and when the 222s are displaced would make it worth taking them on. If the XC franchise award isn't pushed back then both are being awarded next year.
Also IIRC 222s can't multi-work with 220s and 221 due to the electronics(?).
As it is, with the gap being so short, I reckon they will just order new stock.

222s can't interwork with the Voyagers, no, since the Voyagers are programmed and built for intercompatibility with the Pendolinos for some strange reason (I mean, it seems very unlikely they'd ever be paired up in service as even a 9 car Pendolino + 4 car Voyager would be far too long for virtually all platforms).

However the 222s could be like the HSTs or Turbostars - strengthening the services so that, for example, either the Voyagers can be modified so they're all at least 5/6 coaches, or so that they can mostly or all be doubled up.

 

[kje7812]

222s can't interwork with the Voyagers, no, since the Voyagers are programmed and built for intercompatibility with the Pendolinos for some strange reason (I mean, it seems very unlikely they'd ever be paired up in service as even a 9 car Pendolino + 4 car Voyager would be far too long for virtually all platforms).

However the 222s could be like the HSTs or Turbostars - strengthening the services so that, for example, either the Voyagers can be modified so they're all at least 5/6 coaches, or so that they can mostly or all be doubled up.

Agreed, also some of the 222s were originally 9-car. By my reckoning, a 9-car 222 has a comparable seating capacity as the XC HSTs.
Of course, this depends on what the new franchisee wants to do.

 

[swt_passenger]

222s can't interwork with the Voyagers, no, since the Voyagers are programmed and built for intercompatibility with the Pendolinos for some strange reason (I mean, it seems very unlikely they'd ever be paired up in service as even a 9 car Pendolino + 4 car Voyager would be far too long for virtually all platforms).

It’s always been explained as for rescue of an unpowered train only, not for full normal multiple operation.

I reckon the non-compatibility will be modifiable away at an appropriate price anyway. Just depends on affordability.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Good. Despite GWR having some "being part of First" related shortcomings, splitting that franchise off and so losing all the benefits of integration and coordinated promotions would have been madness.

As well as expensive in overheads etc etc - just needs some good local management (not that there is not anyway I am sure down there) - with a bit of extra money to play with for local initiatives on services etc.

 

[jimm]

Agreed, also some of the 222s were originally 9-car. By my reckoning, a 9-car 222 has a comparable seating capacity as the XC HSTs.
Of course, this depends on what the new franchisee wants to do.

XC HSTs seat 540 or so passengers.

I believe that that the nine-car 222s seated about 480 - maybe someone can confirm that they were in essence a seven-car with a couple of extra open standard coaches? Those seat just under 70 passengers, so adding two of them to the 342 seats in a seven-car gets up to the 480 mark.

 

[kje7812]

XC HSTs seat 540 or so passengers.

I believe that that the nine-car 222s seated about 480 - maybe someone can confirm that they were in essence a seven-car with a couple of extra open standard coaches? Those seat just under 70 passengers, so adding two of them to the 342 seats in a seven-car gets up to the 480 mark.

You sure?
XC run as 2+7.
From the XC seating plans on their website
Coach A is 40F + 1 wheelchair space
B is 30F and 10S
C, D, E are all 82S
F is 71S + 2W
G is 67S
That's 70 first and 394 standard with 3 spaces for wheelchairs.

 

[HowardGWR]

The way the consultation document was set out, it was an idea that was simultaneously floated and knocked down again in the same breath, which some of us pointed out at the time. A 'going through the motions' exercise from the outset. I don't think Grayling had much to do with it (see Yes Minister episodes).

 

[dorsetdesiro]

That's a relief, the guy obviously has much bigger problems to worry about!

It has been mentioned often that it is believed that GWR's standards seem to be slipping (perhaps with FirstGroup in difficult times also with TPE and SWR) then hopefully with this uncertainty now out of the way, things may improve over time perhaps with a new operator from 2020 if it is not FirstGroup.

It'll be good for the local lines to get new or cascaded stock replacing the Pacers soon if not right away.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Now we’re certain GWR will stick as one, here’s what I’m hoping for in the final franchise:

-Retention of the Brand and livery (number of reasons, mainly because I like it, but also it’s fresh and still new.)
-Replacement of Pacers with class 195 trains from CAF
-Complete replacement of the sleeper coaching stock, and the refurbishment of class 57s
-Extending Services to cover more traditional GWR destinations. Possibly 2 Birmingham trains a day?
-Replacement of class 150 trains with Stadtler flirt trains... maybe.

Anything else?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Now we’re certain GWR will stick as one, here’s what I’m hoping for in the final franchise:

-Retention of the Brand and livery (number of reasons, mainly because I like it, but also it’s fresh and still new.)
-Replacement of Pacers with class 195 trains from CAF
-Complete replacement of the sleeper coaching stock, and the refurbishment of class 57s
-Extending Services to cover more traditional GWR destinations. Possibly 2 Birmingham trains a day?
-Replacement of class 150 trains with Stadtler flirt trains... maybe.

Anything else?

Agree with the above. Definitely retain the GWR brand, make this non-negotiable.

- First Class in the 800s should be improved further with little more luxurious feel, than just a mere upgrade from Standard. Screw the so called fire regulations, only an excuse for the DfT to cut corners!

- Better cushioning for the Standard Class seating.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Agree with the above. Definitely retain the GWR brand, make this non-negotiable.

- First Class in the 800s should be improved further with little more luxurious feel, than just a mere upgrade from Standard. Screw the so called fire regulations, only an excuse for the DfT to cut corners!

- Better cushioning for the Standard Class seating.

According to a recent Select Committee, the GWR brand will be kept regardless of future bidders, the same as SWR and LNER will be.

 

[Mintona]

Not a lot of value in running to Birmingham. Three operators already do from London, and CrossCountry do half hourly from Bristol and Reading. Can’t see any point in GWR training a lot of drivers and guards the route knowledge for two trains a day.

An addition, an order for 8 CAF trains to replace pacers seems pointless. Might as well get them to replace all the pacer and sprinter stock with one big order.

 

[irish_rail]

Now we’re certain GWR will stick as one, here’s what I’m hoping for in the final franchise:

-Retention of the Brand and livery (number of reasons, mainly because I like it, but also it’s fresh and still new.)
-Replacement of Pacers with class 195 trains from CAF
-Complete replacement of the sleeper coaching stock, and the refurbishment of class 57s
-Extending Services to cover more traditional GWR destinations. Possibly 2 Birmingham trains a day?
-Replacement of class 150 trains with Stadtler flirt trains... maybe.

Anything else?

UK can stick that stadler cr*p where the sun don't shine! Horrible looking trains. And we don't want any vivarail stuff either.....
Extending some of the 5 car 802s to 9 cars would be a good start for the next franchise and personaly I'd keep the gwr brand but tweak the livery as it is so dull looking and looks poor on an IET when compared to LNER s white sets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

UK can stick that stadler cr*p where the sun don't shine! Horrible looking trains.

I personally think they look good. But even if I didn't think that, they have the huge benefit of level boarding - I think that should be mandatory for all new rolling stock forthwith. The benefits are massive - the bus industry is way ahead.

 

[jimm]

You sure?
XC run as 2+7.
From the XC seating plans on their website
Coach A is 40F + 1 wheelchair space
B is 30F and 10S
C, D, E are all 82S
F is 71S + 2W
G is 67S
That's 70 first and 394 standard with 3 spaces for wheelchairs.

They may currently be running around as 2+7 but were 2+8 when they first entered service with XC - so presumably there are five coaches sitting around spare somewhere to save some pennies on track access charges/keep up with Voyager timings.

The Company's exciting HST refurbishment programme includes a redesign of the First Class and Standard carriages, providing extra capacity that will see each HST having 542 seats spread between eight carriages - that's more seats than a jumbo jet!

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/about-us/press/crosscountry-unveils-first-refurbished-hst

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a...s-1s55-13-21-plymouth-edinburgh-23757375.html

That's a relief, the guy obviously has much bigger problems to worry about!

It has been mentioned often that it is believed that GWR's standards seem to be slipping (perhaps with FirstGroup in difficult times also with TPE and SWR) then hopefully with this uncertainty now out of the way, things may improve over time perhaps with a new operator from 2020 if it is not FirstGroup.

It'll be good for the local lines to get new or cascaded stock replacing the Pacers soon if not right away.

Unless GWR falls out with the DfT in the talks about continuing with a direct award franchise, there will not be a new operator in 2020, as was made clear last November.

The Department for Transport has today announced its new strategic vision for the railways, which sets out a number of proposals to increase capacity and improve services for customers across the UK network.

At the same time, the DfT has announced it will exercise its option to extend the current Great Western Franchise for a year to April 2020, and that it intends to negotiate a further direct award for the GWR franchise for a duration of two years to April 2022, with an option to extend this for up to a further two years at the DfT’s discretion.

This is when it expects the completion of the lion’s share of planned improvements across the network to offer a more commercially viable option for potential franchise bidders.

https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-...s-to-dft-announcement-to-extend-gwr-franchise

 

[swt_passenger]

-Replacement of Pacers with class 195 trains from CAF

The Pacers will surely have already gone on current plans.

 

[DenmarkRail]

UK can stick that stadler cr*p where the sun don't shine! Horrible looking trains. And we don't want any vivarail stuff either.....
Extending some of the 5 car 802s to 9 cars would be a good start for the next franchise and personaly I'd keep the gwr brand but tweak the livery as it is so dull looking and looks poor on an IET when compared to LNER s white sets.

Commuters don’t care what a train looks like. They care about the quality of the train.

GWR has the best livery because it is dull... it’s nothing special, but amazing quality, and simple. A bit like how Apple brand and advertise, amazement with simplicity.

 

[Mollman]

The Pacers will surely have already gone on current plans.

Yes I believe the Pacers will go once Newbury electrification (plus introduction of FLEX) allows a further cascade of turbos.