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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Puffing Devil

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Apparently, any exclusion of British planes from EU airspace is likely to be reciprocated - such that many transatlantic flights will have to divert onto a longer, more expensive, slower route. More reasons that the EU needs a deal more than Britain.

Source? I am interested to see how the whole airspace thing is going to pan out.

Indeed, a source would be good, as I always worry when I see the words "apparently" and "likely" with no substantiation.

Also, Air Traffic Control is a separate function from Aircrew and Technician Licensing. The former being issued by our own CAA and the latter by EASA.

NATS (now privatised) provide ATC services for the UK and Eurocontrol is the oversight body for Europe, though it is not an EU body. It is one function that should not be impacted by our leaving the EU. For example, Turkey and Serbia are members of Eurocontrol.
 
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AM9

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Source? I am intrested to see how the whole airspace thing is going to pan out.
I think it is mere speculation on the poster's part to further a leaver's argument. However even if is had been stated somewhere important, a quick look at a map shows how stupid the argument is, a petty tit-for-tat reaction from the UK would hardly affect the EU's air transport effectiveness, so it wouldn't force the EU into any negotiations to change things. They would just wait until the UK finished playing games and came back begging for a deal.
 

Jonny

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Diverting long-haul flights is of far less time or commercial consequence than having an almost total barrier from 42N 10W to 69N 21E, (and that is assuming that Eire allows us to overfly). A great circle transatlantic flight from Copenhagen or Berlin would hardly need any deviation. The only major airports that would be seriously affected would be Amsterdam and Brussels and even they could get away with less than 30 minutes additional flight time.

The shorter ones out of Northern Europe and into the East Coast USA (relatively short) would be badly affected though. A plot of the Great Circle sees Berlin Teigel to New York JFK pass over the Central Belt (Scotland) https://www.greatcirclemapper.net/en/great-circle-mapper.html?route=KJFK-EDDT&aircraft=&speed=
Frankfurt (main hub) to/from JFK is even over England. https://www.greatcirclemapper.net/en/great-circle-mapper.html?route=KJFK-EDDF&aircraft=&speed= Deviate that!

Copenhagen may be less affected, as would Madrid for that matter. However about the only route out of Berlin to the Continental USA left relatively unaffected would be Seattle.

Then there are USA-based airlines that would still have the same access as before.

Source? I am intrested to see how the whole airspace thing is going to pan out.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...mith-travel-chaos-flight-UK-EU-withdrawal-CAA
 

nlogax

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Are things so bad that we're parading our airspace as a 'you need us more than we need you' flag?

This is a pretty embarrassing state of affairs. I had little faith in the government's ability to negotiate in an effective manner to begin with, but hardened Brexiteers like IDS and others carping on in the background will be of zero help to our official negotiating teams.

Also - a quick Google search confirms that only the Express is reporting these ridiculous stories..that well known bellwether of sanity and rational reportage.
 

Howardh

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This has been alluded to before as a Brexit possibility, so updated with a new report....the latest Brexit good news is that our ports are already at full capacity and that after Bidet holding areas will be needed to be built on either side of the channel. https://news.sky.com/story/businesses-step-up-plans-to-avoid-gridlocked-ports-after-brexit-11446979
Contingency plans are being drawn up to prevent lorries being stopped at the border as they make their way into the UK from Europe.
There are growing fears that more onerous border controls after Brexit could result in huge queues and potential gridlock at ports such as Dover and Felixstowe.
Under the plans - seen by Sky News - vehicles would be checked at an "approved location" in Europe and then waved through the UK border. They would then have to go to an "approved inland location" in the UK, away from the port of entry, to be checked again.

However, the same plan shows the confusion that exists around the future of the Irish border, with a suggestion that in the event of a "no deal" Brexit, there may be no choice but to persist with today's regulations and "pick up the pieces later".

The framework for customs and border regulation has been been discussed with growing intensity by members of the Joint Customs Consultative Committee (JCCC), a highly influential forum for British businesses involved in importing and exporting.
The JCCC holds regular meetings with HM Revenue and Customs to offer advice on government policy.

It recently met to discuss contingency plans in the event of a no deal Brexit, discussing the idea of building "additional inland locations on a fast-track basis, even as a temporary measure".
So it looks like Brexit Project Fear is now likely ot be Brexit Reality for the over-crowded south-east, more concrete going down for these holding areas. Any locals like to volunteer some space? *Wonders if they want their votes changed.....*
 

AM9

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The shorter ones out of Northern Europe and into the East Coast USA (relatively short) would be badly affected though. A plot of the Great Circle sees Berlin Teigel to New York JFK pass over the Central Belt (Scotland) https://www.greatcirclemapper.net/en/great-circle-mapper.html?route=KJFK-EDDT&aircraft=&speed=
Frankfurt (main hub) to/from JFK is even over England. https://www.greatcirclemapper.net/en/great-circle-mapper.html?route=KJFK-EDDF&aircraft=&speed= Deviate that!

Copenhagen may be less affected, as would Madrid for that matter. However about the only route out of Berlin to the Continental USA left relatively unaffected would be Seattle.

Then there are USA-based airlines that would still have the same access as before. ...

Well you've ignored most of my post so let me remind you:

from post #10257 - "Diverting long-haul flights is of far less time or commercial consequence than having an almost total barrier from 42N 10W to 69N 21E"
Flights to and from the UK would be unable to fly over any country facing the UK between Sweden/Finland and Spain/Portugal. This barrier to flying south and east from the UK would involve massive deviations on all flights from the UK to destinations in an arc from Tokyo to West Africa. So all the countries that leavers have promised are just gagging to do a deal with us such as Japan, Korea, China, Singapore, India, the whole of the Middle East and all of Africa will overnight become that much more difficult to get to and from (and of course transfer all the valuable goods that they really nneed from the UK. Plus, all the key partners of the pre-1975 British Empire (South Africa, Rhodesia, Nigeria, Australia New Zealand, Singapore and Hong Kong) will also be more isolated from supplies from the old country.
A few parts of the EU would be inconvenienced on Transatlantic flights (as I said, by 30 minutes, maybe an hour) but most will be virtually unaffected (Madrid certainly won't unless the Shetlands got to Norway and Lerwick becomes a major trading partner with Spain). :)
from post #10262 - "a petty tit-for-tat reaction from the UK would hardly affect the EU's air transport effectiveness, so it wouldn't force the EU into any negotiations to change things. They would just wait until the UK finished playing games and came back begging for a deal." Say it all really, what a daft thing to do, unless IDS is trying to spook remainers, because it certainly wouldn't frighten the EU much.
But as you say, the UK will have a clear path to the US, - not sure that alone will do much for our brave new world unless we expect to become the fifty-first state when bully (sorry - best friend) Trump has fixed all these wonderful deals that only friends of the 'highest level of special' get.
 

Puffing Devil

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The shorter ones out of Northern Europe and into the East Coast USA (relatively short) would be badly affected though. A plot of the Great Circle sees Berlin Teigel to New York JFK pass over the Central Belt (Scotland) https://www.greatcirclemapper.net/en/great-circle-mapper.html?route=KJFK-EDDT&aircraft=&speed=
Frankfurt (main hub) to/from JFK is even over England. https://www.greatcirclemapper.net/en/great-circle-mapper.html?route=KJFK-EDDF&aircraft=&speed= Deviate that!

Copenhagen may be less affected, as would Madrid for that matter. However about the only route out of Berlin to the Continental USA left relatively unaffected would be Seattle.

Then there are USA-based airlines that would still have the same access as before.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...mith-travel-chaos-flight-UK-EU-withdrawal-CAA

Sabre rattling of the worst order from a has-been politician. He seems also to be conflating landing rights with overfly rights. Both are moot, as we will also be dropping out of the US-EU Open Skies agreement which means we need to seek a new agreement for US Airlines to fly to the UK and vice versa. As others have said, it's not a massive diversion around UK airspace should we choose to be unreasonable. We would then gift all the transatlantic traffic to Paris/Frankfurt/Amsterdam and Heathrow would be dead in the water. No need for a third runway I suppose.

We could easily be faced with the prospect of no international aviation into the UK. Imagine the pressure on the Channel Tunnel and Ferries as we struggle to get to mainland Europe for a flight. Make no mistake, whatever is threatened, the consequences for the UK will always be worse. A lot worse. Ask yourself what percentage of EU flights are to/from the UK, then how much of UK aviation is based around EU and USA flights. The EU may lose 20% of its market, we would lose over 80%.
 

EM2

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https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...34e4b0de86f490ac74?ncid=fcbklnkukhpmg00000001
The Brexit department will officially no longer lead the negotiations with Brussels, Theresa May revealed as she confirmed a Downing Street takeover of the talks.

In a statement published just hours before MPs go on their six-week summer break from Parliament, the Prime Minister revealed the Number 10 land-grab.

In a further sidelining of the new Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab, the Europe Unit in Downing Street – headed up by civil servant Olly Robbins – is now in charge of the “preparation and conduct of the negotiations”, and will take staff from the Department for Exiting the European Union (DexEU).

The written statement was published just minutes after Raab had updated MPs in the Commons about the Government’s plans for Brexit.

The statement says that while DexEU will lead on the Government’s preparations for Brexit, including for a “no deal” scenario, it is now the Prime Minister who has complete control of the talks with Brussels.

The statement, written by May, reads: “I will lead the negotiations with the European Union, with the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union deputising on my behalf.

“Both of us will be supported by the Cabinet Office Europe Unit and with this in mind the Europe Unit will have overall responsibility for the preparation and conduct of the negotiations, drawing upon support from DExEU and other departments as required.

“A number of staff will transfer from DExEU to the Cabinet Office to deliver that.”

Jenny Chapman, Labour’s Shadow Brexit Minister, said: “Dominic Raab has been side-lined by the Prime Minister before he has even had the change to get his feet under the table.”

Speaking before MPs on the Brexit Select Committee, Raab insisted there was “one team, one chain of command”, and there had been “some changes in staffing of the Whitehall deck-chairs.”

May only put Raab in post two weeks ago...
 

Howardh

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It's just like the Roses Match, every time you log in there's more gob-smacking news. This, apparantly, has been on the cards for some while - maybe Raab was installed to shut Jacob up until the holidays when she and Robbins can take over/carry on.

Is May playing a blinder for the UK - keep kicking Brexit down the road, squeeze through elections deliberately close, have no-one who wants her job and at the last minute getting a BINO (Brexit In Name Only) or even withdrawing A50?? She's quickly going from zero to hero in my book.
 

richa2002

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You really think not carrying out the democratic will of the people will be cause for her to be a hero if she stops Brexit? Could end up in someone a lot more unsavoury in Downing Street... By your measure at least.
 

EM2

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You really think not carrying out the democratic will of the people will be cause for her to be a hero if she stops Brexit?
If she does manage it, she'll then bail out if she's got any sense.
Could end up in someone a lot more unsavoury in Downing Street... By your measure at least.
I doubt anyone else would look at re-running Brexit any time soon.
 

AM9

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You really think not carrying out the democratic will of the people will be cause for her to be a hero if she stops Brexit? ...
Probably in the view of the 48% who voted* and a sizeable proportion of the Conservative party MPs.

* according to the latest polls, - more like 54% now.
 

Howardh

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You really think not carrying out the democratic will of the people will be cause for her to be a hero if she stops Brexit? Could end up in someone a lot more unsavoury in Downing Street... By your measure at least.
Who would you like... Loadsamoney Mogg?? Boris the whatever-he-is-today?? Gove?? All ran away last time the job was up for grabs, what makes you think they's stand? Anything but take responsibility, oh, no sir.
 

EM2

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-a8461771.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true
The new Brexit secretary has promised to ensure “there is adequate food supply” if the UK crashes out of the EU without a deal.

Dominic Raab finally confirmed the government was making extraordinary plans to stockpile food in case the negotiations fail – having refused to do so two days ago.

He told MPs the task would be overseen by industry, rather than Whitehall, and refused to go into any further detail.

In a TV interview on Sunday, Mr Rabb refused to discuss his no deal planning – sparking accusations that he was keeping the public in the dark about the reality of crashing out.

Asked again, by the Brexit committee, he said “technical notices” in the coming months would set out the preparations to keep supermarket shelves well stocked.

Mr Raab argued: “It would be wrong to describe it as the government doing the stockpiling. And, of course, the idea that we only get food imports into this country from one continent is not appropriate.

“But we will look at the issue in the round and make sure there is adequate food supply.”

The Brexit secretary added: “I’m not going to give more detail until I can set it out in a responsible and full fashion.”

Mr Raab acknowledged the “uncertainty we would face” in the short term, if the UK left the EU without a deal, but insisted: “Long term, we would still be able to thrive.”


And he refused to repeat his predecessor’s David Davis boast that a full trade deal could be agreed with the EU by exit day next March, saying: “That would be a challenge, but one that I’m up for.”

Caroline Lucas MP, the Green MP and supporter of the People’s Vote campaign, seized on the comments about stockpiling food, saying: “This will alarm my constituents and millions of other people across the country.

“In just over two years since the 2016 referendum, we’ve gone from being told “there is no downside to Brexit, only a significant upside”, to the Government now warning that we might not have enough food to go around.”

Despite Mr Raab’s comments about food imports from other continents, the government’s own figures show that 30 per cent came from the EU in 2016.

The next highest figure is 5 per cent – from Africa – with 49 per cent produced domestically, in the UK.

During the evidence session, the Brexit secretary acknowledged the Chequers plan had involved significant concessions, while insisting it was “too crude to say 'meets the EU halfway'”.

“We are very clear that we have come a long way with a principled and pragmatic approach,” he said.

Mr Raab also insisted there was "no tension" between him and Olly Robbins, the prime minister’s chief Brexit adviser, who is now leading the approach to the negotiations.

“We have been very clear about this - there's no tension between us, I think that's clear - that all the advice and all of the meetings will be attended by me, with the prime minister, and that all the advice will come to me.

He dismissed allegations of “serious questions about the constitutional propriety of having an unelected unit” in Downing Street making Brexit policy.

The good news just keeps on coming!
 

Bromley boy

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Who would you like... Loadsamoney Mogg?? Boris the whatever-he-is-today?? Gove?? All ran away last time the job was up for grabs, what makes you think they's stand? Anything but take responsibility, oh, no sir.

Churchill? Thatcher?

More realistically, Sajid Javid seems decent enough.
 

Mvann

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You really think not carrying out the democratic will of the people will be cause for her to be a hero if she stops Brexit? Could end up in someone a lot more unsavoury in Downing Street... By your measure at least.

But may stopping brexit would probably mean a general election on the first Thursday in April 2019 and would leave everything in the hands of corbyn who can't make up his mind about leaving or staying
 

Bromley boy

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But may stopping brexit would probably mean a general election on the first Thursday in April 2019 and would leave everything in the hands of corbyn who can't make up his mind about leaving or staying

Corbyn wants to leave. He voted leave in the 1975 referendum when the overwhelming majority voted to remain.
 

fowler9

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Apparently, any exclusion of British planes from EU airspace is likely to be reciprocated - such that many transatlantic flights will have to divert onto a longer, more expensive, slower route. More reasons that the EU needs a deal more than Britain.
I don't think that you are quite correct on this one. There are different "freedoms" in Aviation and the right to overfly is not the same as the right to fly to or operate from another country. Banning third countries from overflying would have a greater impact on us and some of the countries we want to trade with trading with us. Don't forget it isn't just EU based airlines that overfly the UK. Telling, for example, KLM or Ryanair that they couldn't fly through British airspace would be insane.
 
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Jonny

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I don't think that you are quite correct on this one. There are different "freedoms" in Aviation and the right to overfly is not the same as the right to fly to or operate from another country. Banning third countries from overflying would have a greater impact on us and some of the countries we want to trade with trading with us. Don't forget it isn't just EU based airlines that overfly the UK. Telling, for example, KLM or Ryanair that they couldn't fly through British airspace would be insane.

Not even if BA and Easyjet were subject to similar restrictions preventing them from flying over the EU... first?
Not ideal, but if needs must...
 

bnm

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Brexit secretary Dominic Rabb says that Theresa May taking direct control of negotiations with the EU is just "some shifting of the Whitehall deckchairs".

Now, the "shifting deckchairs" analogy is usually associated with the sinking of the Titanic. It is used as a metaphor for a futile action.

So, it seems that the new Brexit secretary believes that his boss negotiating with the EU is pointless. And that he's joined a sinking ship...

Maybe that is what's happening. We know that the rats go first on a sinking ship. Boris, Davis...
 

bramling

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Corbyn wants to leave. He voted leave in the 1975 referendum when the overwhelming majority voted to remain.

It’s absolutely insane that no one really knows what Corbyn’s current position is. It’s fair to say that it seems he’s in favour of leaving, but he never quite says enough to make his position clear.
 

bnm

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I think he's shrewdly biding his time. Banking on the Tories imploding.

It's going to be an interesting Autumn and conference season.
 

bnm

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So have I.

Farley's Risk was my favourite food and my panda teddy bear went everywhere with me. I've certainly changed my mind about those two aspects of my life. :p
 
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