Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because, as I said, there are more important uses for the rolling stock and paths. Most air travel is very discretionary, most other local rail use is not, or not so much. The latter must surely take priority.

The two long-distance services that run from both Newcastle and from Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport are dedicated city linking services with a specific end section airport extension. Northern Rail seem to cover the "local rail" service use that you make reference to above with their franchise services.

You talk of "more important uses for the rolling stock and paths" but surely such matters as that were taken into consideration when the two franchises were drawn up, then granted to the successful bidders.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The two long-distance services that run from both Newcastle and from Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport are dedicated services to a specific usage and would not be run otherwise.

No, they are not, nothing of the sort. They are TransPennine Express services connecting a set of Northern towns and cities just like all the rest of them. They would continue to serve a useful purpose if they did not continue to the Airport, and would continue to load well.

 

[Altfish]

This is the real crux. People flying from Manchester Airport 1-3 times a year for leisure are not a priority and not who we should fret about. They are too disparately located to establish patterns and most will live in suburbs rather than a walk from Newcastle or Middlesbrough stations anyway, using the given examples.

I couldn't disagree more.
Remove these train services and you will drive people onto the roads. The airport will need yet more car parks, it already has too many. I have travelled Manchester to Leeds and back today. On arrival the TPE platform at Leeds was 50% people with suitcases, now I know some could be going to hotels in Manchester or Huddersfield, but most were heading abroad. Coming back I caught a Hull - Piccadilly train; 50% of the people on the platform ignored it; the next train was an Airport train.

Connecting the northern cities and boosting rail commuting within GM (which is pitiful) is the priority here. As well as say 2-3 stoppers per hour, every MAN train should stop once before the airport, which seems a reasonable balance especially without the penalty of the Piccadilly reversals these days.

Connecting Northern cities and rail commuting in GM is happening (One reason rail commuting figures in Manchester are poor is that the 40m+ that use Metrolink don't count)

Ideally there could be some utilisation of the HS2 tunnel (with connectivity into the ‘classic’ airport station) to divert some of the more express services like to the NE or Scotland. And via Heald Green could become an intensive metro service - which, full circle, would 100% necessitate P15 and 16.

Are you serious!! How will you get the NE and Scottish train from the Airport classic station via HS2? The trains would have to reverse in Piccadilly?

 

[HSTEd]

As far as I can tell, an all shacks train from Picadilly to the Airport takes six or seven minutes longer than a regular one.
That seems to me to indicate that stopping all the trains at all stations would produce a useful metro line in south manchester without unduly affecting the airport passengers.

And freight would just be paced more slowly through that section to slightly reduce it's average speed to account for the increase in journey time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Skyline serves the bus station and A6 stops so is more convenient for many people, especially airport employees. Its also better for most people near Buxton line stations heading to or from the airport.

In addition to this, the 330 service from Ashton-under-Lyne to Stockport now has non-stop route extensions to Manchester Airport that use the M60 and M56 motorways.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And freight would just be paced more slowly through that section to slightly reduce it's average speed to account for the increase in journey time.

But why should there be any such speed reduction to which you refer on those container train services which have programmed paths.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No, they are not, nothing of the sort. They are TransPennine Express services connecting a set of Northern towns and cities just like all the rest of them. They would continue to serve a useful purpose if they did not continue to the Airport, and would continue to load well.

Was it not the case some short time ago that the service from Newcastle was reprogrammed to go direct to Liverpool Lime Street (in accordance to what you say above), so why was it that decision was reviewed and a Newcastle to Manchester Airport service reinstated?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was it not the case some short time ago that the service from Newcastle was reprogrammed to go direct to Liverpool Lime Street (in accordance to what you say above), so why was it that decision was reviewed and a Newcastle to Manchester Airport service reinstated?

Capacity, I expect.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And via Heald Green could become an intensive metro service - which, full circle, would 100% necessitate P15 and 16.

Heald Green suffers from being in the type of cutting that it finds itself with the result that many small village stations have more car parking facility than is the case at Heald Green.

 

[Altfish]

As far as I can tell, an all shacks train from Picadilly to the Airport takes six or seven minutes longer than a regular one.
That seems to me to indicate that stopping all the trains at all stations would produce a useful metro line in south manchester without unduly affecting the airport passengers.

And freight would just be paced more slowly through that section to slightly reduce it's average speed to account for the increase in journey time.

It is 6 or 7 minutes increase on the fast journey of 15-17 minutes, if my maths is correct that's at least a 40% increase in journey time.
I think the perceived benefit of many more stoppers will make the situation worse. Do all Heathrow and Gatwick trains stop at all stations?
A better solution might be to divert the freight away; not sure where. Maybe run them from Trafford Park via Warrington Central and a new link to the WCML somewhere there.

 

[Altfish]

Was it not the case some short time ago that the service from Newcastle was reprogrammed to go direct to Liverpool Lime Street (in accordance to what you say above), so why was it that decision was reviewed and a Newcastle to Manchester Airport service reinstated?

When I was at college in the mid 70s in Newcastle, it was Lime St via Victoria to Newcastle, it took 3 hours from Victoria to Newcastle. An 8 coach (IIRC) loco hauled (usually class 46) and ran every 3 hours.
Then it was Lime St via Piccadilly to Newcastle as Victoria was run down, Piccadilly to Newcastle was about 2.5 hours, with 3 coach class 185s.
We now have 2 services; Lime St to Newcastle via Victoria (again) and Man Airport to Newcastle also via Piccadilly and Victoria.

 

[edwin_m]

Are you serious!! How will you get the NE and Scottish train from the Airport classic station via HS2? The trains would have to reverse in Piccadilly?

The plan for NPR seems to be for trains from Liverpool to use HS2 between somewhere west of the airport through to new platforms Piccadilly then continue, route undefined and may or may not require reversal, to Leeds and beyond. They would then use the Airport HS2 station which is intended to be linked by tram to the terminal, and I guess some kind of peoplemover is possible too. The classic airport station would then be more for local rather than regional services.

 

[Roose]

Have those obsessing about freeing two or three Class 185 units forgotten that TPE will be freeing a substantial number of these units as their now trains come into service?

 

[CHAPS2034]

If I remember correctly when the invitation to bid for new TP franchise was issued a few years ago, bidders were given the opportunity to suggest alternative destinations, for example Liverpool, rather than Manchester Airport for some of their trains from Yorkshire. As far as I'm aware nobody did, which suggests that the Airport is a better commercial opportunity.

And the pressure to serve the Airport directly comes from communities along the line. There was an enormous rumpus on Humberside when it was suggested that the through service to the Airport be terminated with passengers having to change at Donny.

And just to clarify, there are two buses from Stockport to the Airport, both running non stop

https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...3c7b27efe8fc0934a79/18-0330_Bus_Times_330.pdf

https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...5f1e271f3dc00d2cd3e/17-1966_Bus_Times_199.pdf

There used to be a local service too (369) but that has now been curtailed to Wythenshawe where there are numerous other services plus Metrolink trams to the Airport

 

[Killingworth]

If I remember correctly when the invitation to bid for new TP franchise was issued a few years ago, bidders were given the opportunity to suggest alternative destinations, for example Liverpool, rather than Manchester Airport for some of their trains from Yorkshire. As far as I'm aware nobody did, which suggests that the Airport is a better commercial opportunity.

When (if) the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme is completed in 2021 there should be a third hourly fast service between Sheffield and Manchester. It has been suggested it will be operated by TPE or Northern to coincide with the transfer of Liverpool - Nottingham from East Midlands after being split out of the Liverpool-Norwich.

Where will that new service start and finish? That's possibly a topic for a separate thread, but the lack of paths through Manchester will be a material factor in routing on that side of the Pennines. Congestion to, from, and at Platforms 13 and 14 is already a cause of significant delays on the services we have now.

It has been suggested the service could start on the west side from Liverpool, Blackpool, Chester or somewhere else. Where to the east doesn't matter as far as capacity at and around Piccadilly is concerned.

 

[Greybeard33]

It has been suggested the service could start on the west side from Liverpool, Blackpool, Chester or somewhere else. Where to the east doesn't matter as far as capacity at and around Piccadilly is concerned.

Do you have a source for the suggestion that the third fast service from Manchester to Sheffield might start from "Liverpool, Blackpool, Chester or somewhere else" rather than from Piccadilly?

 

[cle]

The plan for NPR seems to be for trains from Liverpool to use HS2 between somewhere west of the airport through to new platforms Piccadilly then continue, route undefined and may or may not require reversal, to Leeds and beyond. They would then use the Airport HS2 station which is intended to be linked by tram to the terminal, and I guess some kind of peoplemover is possible too. The classic airport station would then be more for local rather than regional services.

Thanks.

And I didn’t mean MAN Airport trains would go up to Piccadilly and then reverse onto HS2! My wish was for a short tunnel from the classic Airport station linking into the HS2 tunnel into Piccadilly, only in that direction.

It doesn’t exist in plans, I was musing “wouldn't it be nice” as at this point the tunnel will only have about 5tph from London/ Birmingham, and possibly the Liverpool ones mooted, and would therefore have excess capacity for at least a few services. The HS2 line would also need to be able to access P13-16 and go on to Ordsall/Liverpool.

Clearing space on the Styal line for a proper metro service and still some regional overspill eg Cleethorpes which needs the reversal.

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks.

And I didn’t mean MAN Airport trains would go up to Piccadilly and then reverse onto HS2! My wish was for a short tunnel from the classic Airport station linking into the HS2 tunnel into Piccadilly, only in that direction.

It doesn’t exist in plans, I was musing “wouldn't it be nice” as at this point the tunnel will only have about 5tph from London/ Birmingham, and possibly the Liverpool ones mooted, and would therefore have excess capacity for at least a few services. The HS2 line would also need to be able to access P13-16 and go on to Ordsall/Liverpool.

Clearing space on the Styal line for a proper metro service and still some regional overspill eg Cleethorpes which needs the reversal.

You are right there is spare capacity on the section of HS2 between the Airport and Manchester, and NPR (as far as we can tell) is based on making use of this infrastructure. But NPR as it seems to be developing has the benefit that trains from Manchester via the Airport can continue to Liverpool, thus linking both cities to each other and the airport with a single fast service. Whatever enhancements are made to the route into Liverpool would probably benefit London trains via HS2 as well. I don't think there is any particular reason to link the classic Airport station to HS2 - there can be departure screens in the terminal directing passengers to the correct station for each train.

NPR also includes an aspiration for better service between Manchester, the airport and Sheffield but that might just be enhancing the existing route.

 

[dggar]

Thanks.....

.......... The HS2 line would also need to be able to access P13-16 and go on to Ordsall/Liverpool.

Clearing space on the Styal line for a proper metro service and still some regional overspill eg Cleethorpes which needs the reversal.

Wouldn't this re introduce the problem of having to cross the throat of Piccadilly?

 

[Ploughman]

If Airport traffic from east of the pennines is vital and needs to be retained, then does this traffic actually need to access Manchester Picc or Vic at all?
Is there any way that part of the Stalybridge - Stockport route could be made use of, possibly with the addition of links to other lines to avoid crossing the main line other than by bridge.

 

[Altfish]

If Airport traffic from east of the pennines is vital and needs to be retained, then does this traffic actually need to access Manchester Picc or Vic at all?
Is there any way that part of the Stalybridge - Stockport route could be made use of, possibly with the addition of links to other lines to avoid crossing the main line other than by bridge.

Yes, it does need to go to Piccadilly and/or Victoria and Oxford Rd. There are more passengers for those stations than for the Airport.

 

[dggar]

........
..Is there any way that part of the Stalybridge - Stockport route could be made use of, possibly with the addition of links to other lines to avoid crossing the main line other than by bridge.

I look forward to seeing these ideas, time to get the crayons out.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I look forward to seeing these ideas, time to get the crayons out.

Like the "crayonista" idea of a new line between Handforth and Wilmslow to join onto the Styal line between Wilmslow and Styal which already has a correct facing junction leading direct to Manchester Airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I look forward to seeing these ideas, time to get the crayons out.

An hourly service, from about 0600 to 2300, from Stockport bay via Denton to Manchester Victoria (rather than Staly), would be a very sensible idea. Not really crayonista, that; it's been proposed enough times.

 

[dggar]

An hourly service, from about 0600 to 2300, from Stockport bay via Denton to Manchester Victoria (rather than Staly), would be a very sensible idea. Not really crayonista, that; it's been proposed enough times.

Did you actually read the full post #500?
It was about getting trains from east of the Pennines to Manchester airport without going through Man Vic or Man Pic

 

[cle]

Wouldn't this re introduce the problem of having to cross the throat of Piccadilly?

It approaches in tunnel so my thought was a split from that tunnel linking to the southern four (hopefully) lines, with a portal somewhere before Piccadilly.

On the HS2/NPR route, assuming 2-4tph from Liverpool max, I’d guess those are the only services which airport passengers could use - or might they be allowed to stand on HS2 services given it’d be for 8 mins or so? And do we know that the station will be walkable from the terminal? My understanding was that it was more of a parkway and a but away from the terminals themselves, more with the Enterprise Zone developments.

 

[Altfish]

It approaches in tunnel so my thought was a split from that tunnel linking to the southern four (hopefully) lines, with a portal somewhere before Piccadilly.

On the HS2/NPR route, assuming 2-4tph from Liverpool max, I’d guess those are the only services which airport passengers could use - or might they be allowed to stand on HS2 services given it’d be for 8 mins or so? And do we know that the station will be walkable from the terminal? My understanding was that it was more of a parkway and a but away from the terminals themselves, more with the Enterprise Zone developments.

The station is a good distance from the terminals on the far side of the M56. T2 is moving towards the station with its new development but it is still envisage that there will be a) a tram link, b) some sort of rapid transit (Pods or whatever) linking the terminal with the station.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I respectfully ask people to remember that this thread is about the Manchester Piccadilly platform 15 and 16 project and is of this point in time. Anything concerning HS2 is well into the future and I am sure there are a number of threads where HS2 matters can be discussed on this website.

 

[edwin_m]

HS2 and particularly NPR are actually quite relevant here, as NPR could take some trains away from the through lines at Piccadilly and therefore weaken the case for P15/16.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

HS2 and particularly NPR are actually quite relevant here, as NPR could take some trains away from the through lines at Piccadilly and therefore weaken the case for P15/16.

I am talking of comparative timescales. What is the earliest year that any HS2/NPR involvement could be associated with the platforms 15/16 subject of the thread?