Disabled scooter user humiliated by Train Manager for using disabled space on GWR service.

[richw]

In which case maybe the Guard should have gone down the train with her and found her another space, unless all the disabled space on a reasonably long train were filled at 11am on a Sunday morning.

It was the first train from Plymouth towards Totnes and onwards due to overrunning engineering works.... giving GWR an added excuse to their lack of staff

https://www.gov.uk/definition-of-disability-under-equality-act-2010

So being unable to hold a baby due to a temporary injury would certainly not make the woman disabled.

We don't know it was a temporary injury. We just know It was an arm injury. we don't know if it was a long term injury.

 

[Ianno87]

Pregnancy and Maternity (with a baby up to 26 weeks of age) is also a Protected Characteristic under the 2010 Equality Act (https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/equality-act/protected-characteristics#pregmat). But don't know whether (in this case) it's just relevant to the workplace or day-to-day life.

 

[Royston Vasey]

A mobility scooter is not a wheelchair

 

[GarethW]

Bet the Guard wishes he'd stayed at home for a BBQ and to watch the World Cup Final now.

 

[bnm]

A mobility scooter is not a wheelchair

And??

A disabled person is a disabled person. If that person requires an aid to get around then they, and the use of said aid, are afforded protection under the Equality Act.

 

[Wolfie]

Bet the Guard wishes he'd stayed at home for a BBQ and to watch the World Cup Final now.

It is distinctly possible that he will have plenty of time for the latter in the future....

 

[Bletchleyite]

And??

Mobility scooters are carried on a different basis than wheelchairs, as they are used on a different basis. A request for a wheelchair to be folded may not be made. Whereas it's GWR's stated policy in the leaflet I posted upthread that GWR may request a mobility scooter to be folded, and that a mobility scooter that cannot be folded is not permitted at all.

 

[Scotrail84]

Bet the Guard wishes he'd stayed at home for a BBQ and to watch the World Cup Final now.

Maybe they are not a football fan...

 

[jon0844]

Question is then should she have been travelling with her baby unless she could either:
a) Be guaranteed that she could sit down i.e. by getting a seat reservation (so the baby could sit on her knee)
b) Have a friend, relative or partner with her.

I dare you to post that on social media and avoid people getting the pitchforks out!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I dare you to post that on social media and avoid people getting the pitchforks out!

Or we could all just be reasonable about it. Which means, yes, if she was able to transfer to a seat and fold the scooter with assistance to do so. (She has use of her legs; it isn't the same situation as a wheelchair user at all - indeed I'm surprised she didn't *want* to sit in the far more comfortable environs of a Grammer IC3000 compared to a scooter seat).

I do find it a symptom of modern life that people are more interested in their rights and entitlements than in giving a little slack to allow everyone to travel.

 

[northwichcat]

We don't know it was a temporary injury. We just know It was an arm injury. we don't know if it was a long term injury.

Most people don't refer to long term problems as injuries. Even a broken arm isn't really a long term problem, unless there's recurring problems.

 

[Fredtheshred]

Ok, firstly, mobility scooters come in large and small.

I understand that the large varieties can have problems fitting in certain areas.

However, I give my experience as both a single father with 24/7 parental rights......and as a partner for 2 years to a disabled lady.

As a parent, using public transport (in busy periods), I would usually carry my son in a baby harness. On the rare occasion I used a pushchair, I would always fold it up.

My experience of fellow parents is a right to take priority over everyone else. I dont subscribe to that... and it certainly doesnt take priority over disabled people.

We live in a society where so nany people have any tme for anyone with special or disabled needs. My partner has been called names that would be banded about in the 70's to people with special needs. All because people had to wait in doorways, or on transport.

Im not going to pass any blame yet, and a thorough investigation is needed.

But if people think that this doesnt happen, then think again.....funnily not when im with her though

 

[daikilo]

My recommendation to the train manager/guard concerned is that if s/he is threatened with dismissal or any form of disciplinary action, to seek assistance from his/her union. A little discussion with a suitable trainer on how to handle such situations may well be beneficial for the person's own peace of mind.

This type of conflictual situation is very difficult to deal with as not covered by any clear rules visible to the passengers concerned, let alone the interpretation of any short signs.

 

[swj99]

......................and that a mobility scooter that cannot be folded is not permitted at all.

But in this case, it was permitted, by virtue of the fact that it was already on the train and part way into a journey when the incident happened.

 

[IanD]

I haven't seen that, only a video in which she talks to the camera afterwards. Do you have a link to a video of the actual incident?

Sorry, I thought I'd inserted the link earlier. Not sure if anyone has since.

 

[northwichcat]

Or we could all just be reasonable about it. Which means, yes, if she was able to transfer to a seat and fold the scooter with assistance to do so. (She has use of her legs; it isn't the same situation as a wheelchair user at all - indeed I'm surprised she didn't *want* to sit in the far more comfortable environs of a Grammer IC3000 compared to a scooter seat).

Does she though? She might not be able to get in and out of a Grammer IC3000 without assistance and even then her feet won't be anywhere near the floor.

Not everyone in a wheelchair is the same. If you've ever seen Ade Adepitan (former wheelchair Paralympian who's now a TV presenter) he's capable of transferring himself from a wheelchair to another seat without any assistance due to only having one leg which is not functional at all and having strong muscles in his arms.

 

[LAX54]

Don't forget there are TWO sides to every story, and we have not seen the GWR one, we only have one side and the media's version so far.

 

[bnm]

Mobility scooters are carried on a different basis than wheelchairs, as they are used on a different basis. A request for a wheelchair to be folded may not be made. Whereas it's GWR's stated policy in the leaflet I posted upthread that GWR may request a mobility scooter to be folded, and that a mobility scooter that cannot be folded is not permitted at all.

In this case Tanyalee Davis and her mobility aid were boarded at Plymouth without issue, they occupied the space set aside for disabled passengers and their mobility aid. That should have been the end of the matter for the rest of her journey.

Following a RSSB report in December 2017, on mobility scooter access to trains, clarification was sought on whether such aids were covered by the Equality Act. Both the Office of Rail and Road and the Department for Transport clarified that for the purposes of the legislation, mobility scooters, used by someone with protected characteristics, can reasonably be interpreted as 'wheelchairs'.

That TOCs 'policies' don't yet reflect that interpretation doesn't allow them to ignore the primary legislation. Sadly, it takes incidents like this to affect change.

Reasonable adjustments were made by allowing Tanyalee Davis to board and occupy a disabled space using her chosen mobility aid. The law was then broken by insisting she then move from that space.

 

[bnm]

Don't forget there are TWO sides to every story, and we have not seen the GWR one, we only have one side and the media's version so far.

We've also had a response from GWR's press officer Dan Panes saying:

"No one travelling with us should be left feeling like this. This should not have happened."

That's pretty unequivocal. Had there been evidence that what happened was drastically different to that which had been reported, then I very much doubt GWR would be issuing such a statement.

 

[Deafdoggie]

We've also had a response from GWR's press officer Dan Panes saying:

"No one travelling with us should be left feeling like this. This should not have happened."

That's pretty unequivocal. Had there been evidence that what happened was drastically different to that which had been reported, then I very much doubt GWR would be issuing such a statement.

Not an admission of guilt though. They don't want anyone left feeling like that. Doesn't matter what they did was wrong or right, they still don't want anyone left feeling like that. Classic non-committal Customer Service speak.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Not an admission of guilt though. They don't want anyone left feeling like that. Doesn't matter what they did was wrong or right, they still don't want anyone left feeling like that. Classic non-committal Customer Service speak.

Really?
"The priority is really clear. Tanyalee should not have been asked to move" sounds pretty committal to me.

 

[bnm]

Would video of the staff member being birched be acceptable to you?

Err, no.

The videos and reports of his actions are enough.

 

[Deafdoggie]

They are not committing to the fact that she was, just she should not have been. "The guard should not run naked through the train" doesn't mean he did.

 

[nottsnurse]

Sorry, I thought I'd inserted the link earlier. Not sure if anyone has since.

Absolutely disgusting.

Moving a disabled person from a disabled space just for a pram, then doubling down on his incompetence by broadcasting to Tanyalee's fellow passengers that she (rather than his mis-management of the situation) is the issue and will cause a delay?

 

[nottsnurse]

In this case Tanyalee Davis and her mobility aid were boarded at Plymouth without issue, they occupied the space set aside for disabled passengers and their mobility aid. That should have been the end of the matter for the rest of her journey.

Following a RSSB report in December 2017, on mobility scooter access to trains, clarification was sought on whether such aids were covered by the Equality Act. Both the Office of Rail and Road and the Department for Transport clarified that for the purposes of the legislation, mobility scooters, used by someone with protected characteristics, can reasonably be interpreted as 'wheelchairs'.

That TOCs 'policies' don't yet reflect that interpretation doesn't allow them to ignore the primary legislation. Sadly, it takes incidents like this to affect change.

Reasonable adjustments were made by allowing Tanyalee Davis to board and occupy a disabled space using her chosen mobility aid. The law was then broken by insisting she then move from that space.

Spot on.

 

[Bromley boy]

Absolutely disgusting.

Moving a disabled person from a disabled space just for a pram, then doubling down on his incompetence by broadcasting to Tanyalee's fellow passengers that she (rather than his mis-management of the situation) is the issue and will cause a delay?

Ah ok that video is clearer.

It looks to me like the guard was doing a difficult job - trying to balance the needs of a mother with a new born, who was unable to hold the baby, and a demanding and attention seeking disabled passenger. He apologised repeatedly and was as polite as possible.

In the end he got fed up of being threatened and having a camera shoved in his face. I can’t say I blame him.

Why couldn’t the able bodied partner of the woman have assisted by folding the scooter and escorting her to a priority seat, rather than filming and making stupid comments?

 

[Darandio]

Why couldn’t the able bodied partner of the woman have assisted by folding the scooter and escorting her to a priority seat, rather than filming and making stupid comments?

Because that doesn't get you on the news.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really?
"The priority is really clear. Tanyalee should not have been asked to move" sounds pretty committal to me.

Which is interesting, as it's not entirely what their policy says.

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/assisted-travel/scooter-permit-march-2018-v3.pdf?la=en

Do we know if she had a scooter permit? If she did not, the policy reads to me that the scooter must be placed in the luggage rack and the passenger use a seat. This is because the presence of an anti-tip device has not been verified. Even if a permit is held, they are encouraged to move to a seat.

A scooter is not a wheelchair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why couldn’t the able bodied partner of the woman have assisted by folding the scooter and escorting her to a priority seat, rather than filming and making stupid comments?

It appears from one of the news articles he was busy justifying why he, as an able bodied person, did not have to give up *his* seat for the mother with the baby. I think anyone able bodied, including a wheelchair user's companion, should give up their seat for someone with an injury, even a temporary one. That's just being a nice person.

It sounds like the whole thing was a complete and utter failure of the "attitude test". Politeness goes a long, long way.

FWIW, I think I heard in the video (correct me if I'm wrong) she didn't want to sit in a seat and leave her scooter as she had things carried on it. From GWR's policy on scooters:

Before you get on the train When you’re using a scooter on the platform, please don’t go over 3–4mph. Also, please stay behind the yellow line until it’s time to get on the train. Please take any luggage off your scooter before the train arrives, so it won’t affect the balance if you use the ramp. Our staff can help you take the luggage on to the train

Sounds like a possible breach there too.

While the guard's announcement was downright unprofessional (he should simply have said it was due to a passenger incident, or somesuch) I'm not finding myself having much sympathy with her at all, having seen it.

 

[bnm]

A scooter is not a wheelchair.

Tell that to the RSSB, ORR and DfT.

From an RSSB report in December 2017:

The Equality Act (2010) legislation was found to be unclear on whether mobility scooters have the same rights as wheelchair users in terms of the use of designated wheelchair spaces on-board trains in Great Britain. Clarifications, in response to project queries, have led to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) and Department for Transport (DfT) interpreting the legislation to mean that both aids can reasonably be interpreted to be ‘wheelchairs’.