EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bromley boy]

Couldn't we just put a temporary halt to everything, just admit it's been a right shambles from start to not even past the first hurdle, stay in the EU; try to get some kind of consessions regarding what leavers want - and then if there are none go back and do the referendum properly in 5 years time with a clear endpoint? I know I'm a remainer and I Would Say That Wouldn't I (even though I think the EU DOES need some reform) but even amongst those still wishing to leave there's little concensus as to what leave is.

Trouble is we’ve already tried that approach. DC tried to secure meaningful reform and repatriation of powers in 2015 and was sent back with his tail between his legs.

It has become increasingly clear that the only “reform” the EU is interested in is increasing its own bloat and furthering its stated objective of “ever closer union”.

The vote has been taken, now the government needs to get on and implement it. It cannot possibly negotiate a deal on the basis that “we might just stick to the status quo anyway”.

I doubt there’s any detailed policy matter that would achieve simple majority support amongst the electorate at large - we don’t have government by plebiscite in this country, and neither should we!

 

[Howardh]

Trouble is we’ve already tried that approach. DC tried to secure meaningful reform and repatriation of powers in 2015 and was sent back with his tail between his legs.

It has become increasingly clear that the only “reform” the EU is interested in is increasing its own bloat and furthering its stated objective of “ever closer union”.

The vote has been taken, now the government needs to get on and implement it. It cannot possibly negotiate a deal on the basis that “we might just stick to the status quo anyway”.

I doubt there’s any detailed policy matter that would achieve simple majority support amongst the electorate at large - we don’t have government by plebiscite in this country, and neither should we!

The difference between now and Cameron is about £40bn. I'm sure the "bloated" and self-serving Union wouldn't mind tweaking a few rules in return for a few notes! To be honest if I were May I'd be whispering th the EU "chuck in a few reforms to keep the leavers happy and you can knock 20% off our rebate".
"30%"
"25%"
"Done".

 

[EM2]

The people with a business focus have all said Brexit is a terrible idea.

Well, there's James Dyson, Anthony Bamford (JCB) and Tim Martin (Wetherspoons).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Well, there's James Dyson, Anthony Bamford (JCB) and Tim Martin (Wetherspoons).

So we have a cheap pub owner and a man who took back control by shipping all his factories to Malaysia.

 

[47802]

And much exporting of goods to the EU do Wetherspoons do? JCB isn't their biggest Export market India, I'm also guessing they don't have a big supply chain of parts coming from the EU unlike the Major Car Manufacturers.

There was the guy from EBac on the radio the other day a fairly hard core Brexiteer, when Airbus were warning about potential loss of jobs, saying we should be more ambitious and get Airbus to make the whole plane here, like that's likely to happen with French dominated Airbus, and of course any shares the UK had in Airbus were flogged off by BAe some time ago like most of our remaining manufacturing in this country.

 

[Howardh]

And much exporting of goods to the EU do Wetherspoons do? JCB isn't their biggest Export market India, I'm also guessing they don't have a big supply chain of parts coming from the EU unlike the Major Car Manufacturers.

There was the guy from EBac on the radio the other day a fairly hard core Brexiteer, when Airbus were warning about potential loss of jobs, saying we should be more ambitious and get Airbus to make the whole plane here, like that's likely to happen with French dominated Airbus, and of course any shares the UK had in Airbus were flogged off by BAe some time ago like most of our remaining manufacturing in this country.

Yup, and the raw materials come from??
Make stuff ourselves using raw materials that we have to import, probably from or at least through the EU that we've left #brexitlogic

 

[EM2]

And much exporting of goods to the EU do Wetherspoons do? JCB isn't their biggest Export market India, I'm also guessing they don't have a big supply chain of parts coming from the EU unlike the Major Car Manufacturers.

Maybe that's why they're in favour of leaving, because it hardly affects them

 

[Bromley boy]

The difference between now and Cameron is about £40bn. I'm sure the "bloated" and self-serving Union wouldn't mind tweaking a few rules in return for a few notes! To be honest if I were May I'd be whispering th the EU "chuck in a few reforms to keep the leavers happy and you can knock 20% off our rebate".
"30%"
"25%"
"Done".

Well then let’s negotiate to leave on the basis we won’t pay the “exit fee” or make any further contributions unless we can cherrypick the bits we want.

We are one of only a tiny number of countries that bankroll the whole stinking project, after all!

Time to play hard ball. If only our cowardly government had the stomach for it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does anyone know how Brexit will affect the EU financially?

 

[mmh]

Notice in the Independent that

There is no Independent to notice anything in anymore, it's just a clickbait website preaching to the converted.

to ready themselves for (a) Brexit and (b) the Olympics, Paris's Eurostar terminal is baing rebuilt and will cater for British and non-EU's entering having to use ETIAS (or similar) documentation in seperate (and no doubt lengthy) queues. Brussels will probably have to do the same. Of course today you have your passports checked at the departing end so you just walk off the train and away. Looks like all that will change.

Thanks for confirming my opinion of the Independent website. It's a shame, it was a decent and reasonably un-rabid newspaper (it'd be nice to have more of those) in its time.

 

[bnm]

Trouble is we’ve already tried that approach. DC tried to secure meaningful reform and repatriation of powers in 2015 and was sent back with his tail between his legs.

You keep peddling this line, despite it not being a true reflection of the outcome of negotiations. A simple online search will show that Cameron did secure concessions for the UK that would have been put into place had the referendum result been remain.

He didn't get everything he wanted, but to suggest he came home empty handed is very wide of the mark.

 

[dosxuk]

You keep peddling this line, despite it not being a true reflection of the outcome of negotiations. A simple online search will show that Cameron did secure concessions for the UK that would have been put into place had the referendum result been remain.

He didn't get everything he wanted, but to suggest he came home empty handed is very wide of the mark.

And beside, many of the concessions he tried to get were simply rebuffed with statements like "No David, the ECHR isn't one of our components", or "But David, you can already do that but you've chosen not to". And of course the anti-EU press all reported that as the EU being unwilling to negotiate...

 

[Howardh]

There is no Independent to notice anything in anymore, it's just a clickbait website preaching to the converted.
Thanks for confirming my opinion of the Independent website. It's a shame, it was a decent and reasonably un-rabid newspaper (it'd be nice to have more of those) in its time.

Do you actually know what documents - if any in addition to our passports - we will be required to carry or apply online after 1.1.21 if we wish to travel as a tourist or businessman to the EU? Please tell me if you do, plus their cost, validity and what exclusions might apply? Thank you.

 

[bnm]

So, as reported today, not only did the leave campaign sell the UK electorate a pup, they did so illegally.

 

[nidave]

Trouble is we’ve already tried that approach. DC tried to secure meaningful reform and repatriation of powers in 2015 and was sent back with his tail between his legs.

It has become increasingly clear that the only “reform” the EU is interested in is increasing its own bloat and furthering its stated objective of “ever closer union”.

The vote has been taken, now the government needs to get on and implement it. It cannot possibly negotiate a deal on the basis that “we might just stick to the status quo anyway”.

I doubt there’s any detailed policy matter that would achieve simple majority support amongst the electorate at large - we don’t have government by plebiscite in this country, and neither should we!

DC's demands were (mostly) stuff we could do anyway - but choose not to yet its the EU's fault. Sigh.

 

[Bromley boy]

You keep peddling this line, despite it not being a true reflection of the outcome of negotiations. A simple online search will show that Cameron did secure concessions for the UK that would have been put into place had the referendum result been remain.

He didn't get everything he wanted, but to suggest he came home empty handed is very wide of the mark.

He secured some limited concessions but was rebuffed in many areas and the overall impression many formed (myself included) was of an intransigent EU, unwilling to change meaningfully to accommodate the wishes of one of most significant member states.

It’s probably fair to say that Cameron made a big error by over promising and under delivering on this since it was supposed to be the platform on which the remain case would be fought.

 

[Bromley boy]

DC's demands were (mostly) stuff we could do anyway - but choose not to yet its the EU's fault. Sigh.

Well perhaps you can tell me which of his demands were “stuff we could do anyway”?

 

[EM2]

unwilling to change meaningfully to accommodate the wishes of one of most significant member states.

Why should they? Why should this member have membership on a different basis to the other members? The UK already has more opt-outs than any other member.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Well perhaps you can tell me which of his demands were “stuff we could do anyway”?

Shall we start with the myth of unfettered immigration? The UK chose not to track incoming EU citizens and turf them out after three months if they did not have employment.

 

[Puffing Devil]

And in other news, it's all getting a bit messy in the Commons today in the wake of the Electoral Commission decision on the Vote Leave campaign. Many calls for a full investigation and an annulment of the referendum.

 

[Bromley boy]

Why should they? Why should this member have membership on a different basis to the other members? The UK already has more opt-outs than any other member.

For one thing we are one of the only net financial contributors to the EU’s coffers.

We may have more opt outs (which isn’t guaranteed to remain the case) but we are also more likely than any other member states to be on the losing side.

That suggests the EU is increasingly failing to reflect the wishes of the U.K.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...tvoted-EU-Council-VoteWatch-Europe-study-MEPs

A study of voting records in the EU Council, made up of Government ministers from each member state, since 2004 has revealed Britain is increasingly on the losing side when it comes to decision-making on EU legislation.

The research by VoteWatch Europe - an independent Brussels-based thinktank - also found Britain has seen its influence in the European Parliament diminished in recent years, with the UK’s MEPs less likely to be on the winning side than any other member state.

EDITED - we are more not less likely to be on the losing side.

 

[Howardh]

And in other news, it's all getting a bit messy in the Commons today in the wake of the Electoral Commission decision on the Vote Leave campaign. Many calls for a full investigation and an annulment of the referendum.

If people (any sides, any parties) have acted illegally during an election and are merely fined, that hardly stops future illegality - a few grand might eb a price worth paying for your success. So if anything untoward has gone on, then on conviction we need stiff jail terms and a serious look at how this affected any election/referendum result, and if significant, a re-run.

We pride ourselves on "democracy" but it ain't democracy if it can be bought.

NOTE the referendum can't be re-run as it was only advisory and Parliament has already passed the withdrawl bill.

 

[Bromley boy]

Shall we start with the myth of unfettered immigration? The UK chose not to track incoming EU citizens and turf them out after three months if they did not have employment.

That’s irrelevant to what I’m asking.

I’m asking, specifically, which of David Cameron’s demands in 2016 were things we could have done anyway.

The previous poster has stated many of them were, so presumably he can identify them for me.

 

[randompixel]

For one thing we are one of the only net financial contributors to the EU’s coffers.

We may have more opt outs (which isn’t guaranteed to remain the case) but we are also less likely than any other member states to be on the losing side.

That suggests the EU is increasingly failing to reflect the wishes of the U.K.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...tvoted-EU-Council-VoteWatch-Europe-study-MEPs

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

Some context.

 

[Howardh]

That’s irrelevant to what I’m asking.

I’m asking, specifically, which of David Cameron’s demands in 2016 were things we could have done anyway.

The previous poster has stated many of them were, so presumably he can identify them for me.

Didn't we have an "emergency brake" which was never used?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Time to play hard ball. If only our cowardly government had the stomach for it.

How can we play hardball when the EU know how incompetent our government is?
If we had started planning when we should have (aka there should have been a plan in place before the referendum, we should not still be thinking about what plan we want 2 years on!) then maybe we would have had enough time to build up organisations, resources and infrastructure so that a no deal Brexit wouldn't be massively damaging to us as a country. But we didn't do that. Which means that if we play hardball, all the EU has to do is call our bluff because they know we'd be well and truly up the creek without a paddle without a deal at the moment.

 

[Busaholic]

Polling has previously suggested that unionist catholics are far more common than protestant nationalists.

What I didn't mean to imply was that there were few Catholics who supported the union, because I'm sure there are many who fall into that category, but there were probably few who had actively supported/ campaigned for a Unionist party, particularly the DUP. Equally, I doubt whether more than a handful of Protestants would have publically supported Sinn Fein prior to the Good Friday agreement, although the number might have grown now. The SDLP seems a busted flush, other perhaps than in parochial politics, but I expect they would have attracted more Protestants who were prepared to at least accept the possibility of a united Ireland in time.

 

[Bromley boy]

Didn't we have an "emergency brake" which was never used?

That was a new concession extracted by DC, it wasn’t something we could have done anyway.

It was never triggered anyway because we voted to leave.

 

[Bromley boy]

How can we play hardball when the EU know how incompetent our government is?
If we had started planning when we should have (aka there should have been a plan in place before the referendum, we should not still be thinking about what plan we want 2 years on!) then maybe we would have had enough time to build up organisations, resources and infrastructure so that a no deal Brexit wouldn't be massively damaging to us as a country. But we didn't do that. Which means that if we play hardball, all the EU has to do is call our bluff because they know we'd be well and truly up the creek without a paddle without a deal at the moment.

Well, yes, you’re quite right!

This useless government has sleepwalked us into a position where the reality of a no deal exit would be untenable.

Plans should have been made earlier (I wouldn’t have wanted to crash out with no deal, but it should have been considered as a possibility).

I’m sure all want a decent outcome for the U.K. and, through lack of planning and foresight, the government has made that more difficult to achieve.

That’s something we should all lament!

 

[EM2]

For one thing we are one of the only net financial contributors to the EU’s coffers.

And?
Someone has to be, because if everybody takes out more than they put in, all you have is a giant Ponzi scheme.
In the future, maybe we would have had EU funding for more projects, and been a net receiver.

We may have more opt outs (which isn’t guaranteed to remain the case) but we are also less likely than any other member states to be on the losing side.

Opt-outs cannot be removed without negotiation. And if we're the least likely to lose, then that's surely good?

That suggests the EU is increasingly failing to reflect the wishes of the U.K.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...tvoted-EU-Council-VoteWatch-Europe-study-MEPs

Because maybe those wishes aren't good for the EU. Would you support motions that work against you?
The UK is coming across as a spoiled brat, like Violet Elizabeth Bott who will 'scream and scream and scream until I am sick!', who wants everything their own way, no matter how badly it impacts on everyone else.