"Govia Thameslink boss in first class row"

[Mojo]

I don't know what the fuss is about.

It's exactly what you'd expect the 'Head of Network Operations' for GTR, someone who could legitimately be nominated to be the UK's most incompetent manager if such an award existed, to do.

I don’t think that’s fair. Whilst I don’t profess to know the ins and outs of the role; having read the job description it sounds as if he oversees the control function as some kind of middle ranking manager rather than anyone who could actually be responsible for the mess that’s gone on. Given the inevitable stress that the on duty control teams must be facing on a daily basis, his work would probably surround looking after the control staff, which can’t be easy given the pressures they’re under.

 

[mpthomson]

At his level in the company he'll be perfectly entitled to sit in First Class. Govia have said that there were second class seats further down the train. He's justified in his actions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though he himself might have given better publicity if *he* chose to stand, leaving First Class empty. This would show solidarity with his suffering customers.

 

[mpthomson]

I think the problem is that in the rail Industry there are no consequences for this type of behaviour by employees, so it just continues, whereas in normal business situations the implications for an employee would be terminal.

Why?

He's a First Class pass holder and he's asked non first class passengers to leave the first class area when there were standard class seats available for them.

Not sure why behaving correctly in this instance is going to be remotely terminal for his career. If he'd evicted sitting First class passengers that would be a different issue, but he didn't did he?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Who took the picture of him? Clearly someone else sat in First Class, wonder what their angle on it is.

Edit - unless perhaps one of the disgruntled standard pax scuttled past him, took the photo then made their escape. Looks like someone stood in the aisle.

 

[mpthomson]

Though he himself might have given better publicity if *he* chose to stand, leaving First Class empty. This would show solidarity with his suffering customers.

He may well have work to do, if he's a first class pass holder why should he stand? He's entitled to sit there!
There really are some bizarre ideas on here sometimes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He may well have work to do, if he's a first class pass holder why should he stand? He's entitled to sit there!

And no doubt Carolyn McCall (former CEO of easyJet) and her entourage were entitled to go to the front of the Speedy Boarding queue when I encountered them "pushing in" at Geneva a few years ago.

But when I called her out on it, she didn't talk about entitlement. She had a chat with me about the forthcoming allocated seating policy and a few issues with it (which were later ironed out) then apologised and went to the back of the queue taking her entourage with her. Later on on the plane she got up, got the bin bag and helped the crew out with the cleaning while talking to passengers about their views along the way.

Sometimes a CEO has to give up their entitlement to show that without the customer they are nothing. (I don't agree that "the customer is always right" - very often they are wrong - but their interests as a whole are always paramount otherwise you have no business).

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Sometimes a CEO has to give up their entitlement to show that without the customer they are nothing. (I don't agree that "the customer is always right" - very often they are wrong - but their interests as a whole are always paramount otherwise you have no business).

This is what I like about David Statham (current MD of SE) - in the past two years, I've seen him standing as a passenger on his own trains, speaking to the staff at one of his stations, and manning the gateline for three hours, helping old ladies through the barriers. I can appreciate top-level managers and execs who are prepared to get their hands a bit dirty and spend even just a few minutes of their time with their staff, with their customers, getting a feel for the real world. Because so many other CEOs and execs never bother to do this.

 

[mpthomson]

And no doubt Carolyn McCall (former CEO of easyJet) and her entourage were entitled to go to the front of the Speedy Boarding queue when I encountered them "pushing in" at Geneva a few years ago.

But when I called her out on it, she didn't talk about entitlement. She had a chat with me about the forthcoming allocated seating policy and a few issues with it (which were later ironed out) then apologised and went to the back of the queue taking her entourage with her. Later on on the plane she got up, got the bin bag and helped the crew out with the cleaning while talking to passengers about their views along the way.

Sometimes a CEO has to give up their entitlement to show that without the customer they are nothing. (I don't agree that "the customer is always right" - very often they are wrong - but their interests as a whole are always paramount otherwise you have no business).

This is not a remotely similar situation, Boon wasn't attempting to use his position to get in front or a seat in a section over people equally entitled to use it than him, which is what happened in your case.

What he did was to ask people who had no right, or in this case ticket, to be where they were to move to an area where they should be. Govia have said that there were standard class seats in other coaches. He's got a first class pass and has a right to be there, if the passengers had standard tickets then they had no right to be there and were rightly asked to move as the train hadn't been declassified.

 

[mpthomson]

This is what I like about David Statham (current MD of SE) - in the past two years, I've seen him standing as a passenger on his own trains, speaking to the staff at one of his stations, and manning the gateline for three hours, helping old ladies through the barriers. I can appreciate top-level managers and execs who are prepared to get their hands a bit dirty and spend even just a few minutes of their time with their staff, with their customers, getting a feel for the real world. Because so many other CEOs and execs never bother to do this.

Which Boon equally may do, who knows?

 

[whhistle]

Sometimes a CEO has to give up their entitlement to show that without the customer they are nothing.

And this is what it's all about.

I don't think anyone is saying he didn't have any entitlement to sit there.
But look at it from a passenger point of view...

You've had rubbish service for weeks/months.
You're on a train, and perhaps were not aware there were spare seats elsehwere.
Then you see some sort of "manager" boarding and seemingly keeping people out of the First Class section.
Then spreading out taking two seats to "get some work done".

Why didn't the manager take time to talk to people about the problems?
Yes, it's not perhaps his job but in the interest of being liked, and making customers feel listened to, why not? Now he's become the face and name people will remember, and direct their hatred at.

Did he really have authority to stop people being in FC with STD tickets?
Yes, he's a manager, but I'd suggest that isn't really part of his job. No doubt it would have been "he didn't do anything about it" if it was the other way round though.

 

[bramling]

This is not a remotely similar situation, Boon wasn't attempting to use his position to get in front or a seat in a section over people equally entitled to use it than him, which is what happened in your case.

What he did was to ask people who had no right, or in this case ticket, to be where they were to move to an area where they should be. Govia have said that there were standard class seats in other coaches. He's got a first class pass and has a right to be there, if the passengers had standard tickets then they had no right to be there and were rightly asked to move as the train hadn't been declassified.

It’s not about the rights or wrongs of the situation, it’s about judgement. His conduct may well have been appropriate for a well performing TOC. GTR is anything but that, and it’s simply a stupid thing to do to stir up trouble when the operation is such a disaster at the present time. A decent manager would have either been sitting there inconspicuously, or would have handled the situation more sensitively.

Was Boon really meant to be interfering with on-train issues anyway? If there’s a problem with misuse of first class on that service then surely he could have made arrangements for revenue attendance - if not on the day then at some point in the future.

Unfortunately it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that it’s a case of “stuff everyone else I’m an important GTR manager and I want to spread myself out”. The result of that bad judgement is he’s made himself and his company look stupid.

 

[Whattraintoday]

I'll just compare and contrast this with a Northern manager I saw this morning who got on at Kirkstall Forge, so it wasn't a very long trip but there were some seats available (no doubles though).
He had a quick check-in with the guard - basically a nod and asking if everything was OK - and then, after checking there were no seats available that wouldn't mean sitting next to a paying customer relishing having a double to themselves, stood in the vestibule and dealt with some emails on his phone*

*He could've been on Twitter for all I know, couldn't see his screen.

 

[Taunton]

On LBC Radio in London this morning, presenter Nick Ferrari really ripped into him for this. Some may be interested in a "real world" perspective.

He said that whereas Boon had not paid any money for his seat (or the seat for his bag), all those standing had paid substantial amounts.

They had traced the woman who took the photo (this is what journalists do), she had boarded at East Croydon to travel to Victoria, and said she had run all along the train looking for any seats, finally boarding at the front, as people were standing throughout. Those who know East Croydon will be aware that the platform entrance is right at the back. Boon (or his apologist) said there were empty seats at the back. The woman actually boarding said she had looked and there were not, standees in every carriage. It's not clear how he could know that after East Croydon there were still any empty seats.

It was not rush hour, it was 11am when the train was this full. Was it a complete 12 cars, or reduced?

Ferrari commented several times how in many commercial businesses he would be out on his ear for behaving like this.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Mr Boon chose to do something that he was entitled to do but wasn’t part of his job (enforcing first class) whilst choosing not to do something else he was entitled to do but wasn’t part of his job (engage constructively with unhappy customers)

And that speaks volumes about both him and the culture of his employers

 

[al78]

If you look at the rule book alone, there isn't an issue. Passengers are rammed into standard class because they have standard tickets and first class is nearly empty because only a handful have first class tickets.

Logically, it makes no sense to shut off a section of the train in severe overcrowding situations, so at least some consideration should be given to declassifying 1st class, to make maximum use of the available space.

 

[swt_passenger]

Logically, it makes no sense to shut off a section of the train in severe overcrowding situations, so at least some consideration should be given to declassifying 1st class, to make maximum use of the available space.

There’s still no real evidence that the whole train was severely overcrowded, ie enough to justify declassification.

 

[al78]

There’s still no real evidence that the whole train was severely overcrowded, ie enough to justify declassification.

Maybe not in this case, but the thread seems to have gone along that line of discussion, so I am saying that IF there is severe overcrowding, it is logical to declassify and use all the space, even if a minority might get a bit narked. You can always deny those without first class tickets the perks of free food and drink, then they are not getting the same service for cheap.

It looks in this case that it wasn't severely overcrowded, but there were standing passengers, and the issue is about someone sprawling out in a sparsely populated first class whilst standard class passengers are standing, and effectively rubbing there noses in it, a bit like a ha-ha-ha-ha-sucks-to-be-you attitude.

 

[HowardGWR]

There’s still no real evidence that the whole train was severely overcrowded, ie enough to justify declassification.

There's the evidence of the passenger, see post 54 (unless she was lying - but why would she)?

 

[DarloRich]

On LBC Radio in London this morning, presenter Nick Ferrari really ripped into him for this. Some may be interested in a "real world" perspective.

He said that whereas Boon had not paid any money for his seat (or the seat for his bag), all those standing had paid substantial amounts.

They had traced the woman who took the photo (this is what journalists do), she had boarded at East Croydon to travel to Victoria, and said she had run all along the train looking for any seats, finally boarding at the front, as people were standing throughout. Those who know East Croydon will be aware that the platform entrance is right at the back. Boon (or his apologist) said there were empty seats at the back. The woman actually boarding said she had looked and there were not, standees in every carriage. It's not clear how he could know that after East Croydon there were still any empty seats.

It was not rush hour, it was 11am when the train was this full. Was it a complete 12 cars, or reduced

Ferrari commented several times how in many commercial businesses he would be out on his ear for behaving like this.

Lets be clear: Those standing in second class had no right to be in first class. They might have paid a "substantial" sum but that "substantial" sum allows them to travel in the second class part of the train. It conferred on them no right to travel in first class. They were not deprived of anything. What this is all about is jealousy and envy. Jealousy that someone else gets something you or I don't.

OBVIOUSLY it looks bad at a time of poor PR for GTR but it isnt really that bad. I might agree with your views IF a fare paying first class passenger had been deprived a seat. The simple fact is they weren't. We either have rules or we don't. We can not have rules only when they suit us. We see posts here often enough when people complain rules are not enforced. Now we have a complaint that rules were enforced. We cant have it both ways!

 

[Mingulay]

It’s not about the rights or wrongs of the situation, it’s about judgement. His conduct may well have been appropriate for a well performing TOC. GTR is anything but that, and it’s simply a stupid thing to do to stir up trouble when the operation is such a disaster at the present time. A decent manager would have either been sitting there inconspicuously, or would have handled the situation more sensitively.

Was Boon really meant to be interfering with on-train issues anyway? If there’s a problem with misuse of first class on that service then surely he could have made arrangements for revenue attendance - if not on the day then at some point in the future.

Unfortunately it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that it’s a case of “stuff everyone else I’m an important GTR manager and I want to spread myself out”. The result of that bad judgement is he’s made himself and his company look stupid.

I think that's a good summary , just bad judgement on his part . Whilst I hate to make judgements by appearances alone, I cant help but think the haircut gives an insight into his uncompromising approach to customer relations !

Whilst critical of Scotrail from time to time , Both past and present heads of Scotrail have been very customer focussed on board trains in engaging positively with customers . More savvy I suspect .

He should have done what a former Scot Gov Transport Minister did on an over crowded service . Spend the entire journey in the loo!! Bewildering that . Dodgy meal in staff canteen at Holyrood no doubt !?!

 

[swt_passenger]

There's the evidence of the passenger, see post 54 (unless she was lying - but why would she)?

It’s still supposition. When I’ve used these trains often people stand from East Croydon with seats available.

 

[DarloRich]

It’s very bad PR. However nothing surprises me when it comes to GTR and naivety.

Poor show PR wise certainly - it simply offers an open goal for complaints

He should have done what a former Scot Gov Transport Minister did on an over crowded service . Spend the entire journey in the loo!! Bewildering that

The poor person may have had the squits! Imagine the headline: Scottish minster fouls him/herself on crowded train! now that IS bad PR!

 

[island]

I can't help but think folk who'd paid full whack for a first class ticket would be fairly annoyed to see a railway manager sat there *not* challenging standard class passengers dodging their fares! Damned if you do, damned if you dont kind of thing.

Indeed!

On a full and standing train, staff travelling pass shouldn't be occupying seats regardless of class.

There is limited evidence, or a conflict of evidence, that the train was in fact full and standing throughout.

I’m just astonished how no-one in GTR’s press office (or indeed their management) can see how this situation might possibly have bad optics - a boss sat in first class with standing passengers in Standard, and occupying two seats to boot.

There is no evidence that he occupied those seats to the exclusion of another 1st class ticket holder.

A lot of fuss about nothing methinks.

 

[jon0844]

There’s still no real evidence that the whole train was severely overcrowded, ie enough to justify declassification.

There doesn't need to be evidence. GTR is public enemy number one, so anything that you can use to bash the company is fine. People will believe anything they hear (and a photo is absolute proof even if it doesn't tell the whole story) because all staff don't care about the passengers.

Think of Corbyn and the ram packed train which wasn't, and how after being found out the filmmaker (who happened to be a Momentum activist) spent ages trying to spin things about the train genuinely being packed and how you just couldn't see people in the seats. The fact Virgin hadn't given CCTV footage was proof of a cover up (rather than it being down to data protection, where images are not provided if the person(s) involved are not in the image).

To me this was a massive PR fail as anyone should have realised the potential to be photographed or filmed and for there to be no way to control the narrative after that point. It's like a strict liability offence - guilty with no trial.

 

[jon0844]

There's the evidence of the passenger, see post 54 (unless she was lying - but why would she)?

I am not suggesting she was lying, but she could have been lying or at best exaggerating. We don't know. I know I don't anyway.

 

[HowardGWR]

I can't help thinking that his real problem is his appearance. He just doesn't exude a likeable image does he - that haircut, well!? His expression is sour.

 

[Jona26]

I'll contrast this situation with a similar one on another Southern train yesterday, albeit an hour later, and leave it to readers to decide who behaved in the most professional role and put GTR in the best light....

I boarded at Gatwick heading to East Croydon. The train was running 8 minutes late as it had had Stop Orders inserted on the way from Brighton to cover for previous cancellations.

The driver (not OBS) apologised for the delays and clearly explained why they had happenend. He politely asked that as the train was so busy to remove all bags from seats and move from the aisle to the window seat if it was unoccupied so as many passengers as possible had a seat. Also to give up your seat for passengers less able to stand.

He also announced that he was de-classifying first class to give additional seating space.

On the journey he gave regular updates on the progress, including onward travel advice and alternative arrangements due to problems that were occuring on London Underground.

It was the best informed journey that I have experienced on any train by any operator in a long time.

I thought he was so good I emailed Southern to sing his praises, something I rarely do.

Later in the day I came accross the BBC article and sighed!

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW, I've found Thameslink drivers in recent times to be very good at explaining problems and what was happening.

Must admit I also like the "Dutch" (copied from NS) "bing bong bong" you get when they do...

 

[pembroke]

Small point, but his bag appeared to be train crew standard issue, with "high vis" , presumably to aid evacuation? Also, having been identified as TOC management, whatever the rights and wrongs, he could have volunteered to give up his seat and also apologise for the overcrowding. In BA this was called "customer recovery", often used when flights were overbooked, done tactfully and with passengers as the immediate priority. Hopefully this will do lasting damage to his career. but will probably see a sideways move and then onwards and ruthlessly, upwards!