Advice during disruption to Grand Central services

[ForTheLoveOf]

Certainly for any journeys I make in future on the ECML I am very seriously put off considering getting Hull Trains Only or Grand Central Only tickets - regardless of if they are Advances or walk-up tickets. The situation could be greatly ameliorated by officially allowing passengers to excess away a TOC restriction from a ticket.

On the other hand, if this worked in the same way as route restrictions do now - with passengers able to excess on the train without penalty (if they can access the platforms!) then in situations like this then, because the advice would be 'excess when you're on the train', it is true that LNER would probably become far busier than I understand them to already be.

I think the whole situation could undoubtedly have been handled far better by Grand Central. It is not as if there is a shortage of alternative transport methods, even if they are pricey for GC - e.g. hiring minibuses or any leftover rail replacement buses not on hire elsewhere. And, in a worst case scenario where neither of the former are possible, I am sure there are sufficient taxis in London to allow however many hundred passengers were due to travel on GC's services to be taxied to their respective destinations.

Another alternative would also be to arrange overnight accomodation for those stranded passengers who don't have the money to buy a new ticket. This is London, the capital of a major country we are taking about - not some small station in the middle of nowhere. I am sure there are enough hotel rooms to put any stranded passengers up. Or GC could send someone to KGX to buy new tickets for stranded passengers on production of a ticket valid only on GC's cancelled services.

Ultimately it is down to a decision which will have been made within GC - one would hope fairly high up in the day to day chain of command - where they have decided that it is cheaper to strand passengers and accept any expenses claims, even if this results in the damage to their reputation which it now has. Sadly, without this occurrence being a national headline it will not cause the kind of reputational damage necessary to make it a better option for GC to actually get people to their destinations or to put them up for the night.

 

[IanXC]

I think your other arguments are very true - however I think this one may be considered rather tenuous: to say that a cancelled train (for whatever reason!) on which you were due to travel does not constitute disruption to your journey is certainly a stretch of the definition of 'disruption' IMO!

I'm not advocating that position as such, but it isn't, to me, clear in the NRCoT quite what this clause actually means in practice.

But that isn't what they are saying. If GC passengers pay another £100 for a new ticket it sounds like LNER are more than happy to carry them regardless of how busy the trains may or may not be.

LNER don't have any choice about that tho; they simply can't stop people buying fresh walk up tickets valid on their trains.

 

[Starmill]

I'm very intrigued that the Chief Executive of Transport Focus describes the decision to travel with Grand Central as the customer taking "a risk" of being stranded. Perhaps he doesn't want people to travel with GC?

 

[Merthyr Imp]

I notice it says to send a copy of the LNER ticket bought to Grand Central for reimbursement. Why not the actual ticket?

 

[Starmill]

I notice it says to send a copy of the LNER ticket bought to Grand Central for reimbursement. Why not the actual ticket?

Presumably because email is quicker than post...

I have to wonder how long GC would (to use their word) require customers to offer them up to several hundred pounds in credit though and if they would be paying interest.

 

[Merseysider]

I'm very intrigued that the Chief Executive of Transport Focus describes the decision to travel with Grand Central as the customer taking "a risk" of being stranded. Perhaps he doesn't want people to travel with GC?

Can you blame him?

 

[Starmill]

Can you blame him?

Is it within the remit of Transport Focus to reccomend for or against travel with particular train companies?

 

[Merseysider]

Is it within the remit of Transport Focus to reccomend for or against travel with particular train companies?

If that particular train company is repeatedly and frequently failing in its obligations to passengers, then I’d suggest so.

 

[Starmill]

If that particular train company is repeatedly and frequently failing in its obligations to passengers, then I’d suggest so.

Mr Smith isn't claiming that though. Quite the contrary, he is claiming that the risk is only with the passenger.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

Presumably because email is quicker than post...

Ah yes - email. I should have read it more closely.

Anyway, as others have said, it's unlikely I'll attempt to travel by Grand Central again, and will be advising other people not to as well. We're booked on the 1257 from King's Cross tomorrow which is one of those listed as cancelled.

 

[wellhouse]

This is a change of policy for GC. Some years ago I held an Advance Ticket for a cancelled GC service from Kings Cross.

A couple of GC staff appeared at the queue for the platform (this was before the rebuilding of Kings Cross) and I was issued with an Anytime ticket to use on the next East Coast service

 

[mmh]

People need to be more bolshie about this sort of nonsense. Cancelled train, OK - I'll get the next one in the right direction. Buy another ticket? Give over. Argument over it? Fine, call the BTP. Won't happen.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

People need to be more bolshie about this sort of nonsense. Cancelled train, OK - I'll get the next one in the right direction. Buy another ticket? Give over. Argument over it? Fine, call the BTP. Won't happen.

The problem is that 'the establishment' has far more power than the consumer/passenger has. What's realistically the worst that can happen if this nonsense continues and ruins GC's brand (as is unlikely though)? They'll simply fold. Whereas if, as a passenger, you refuse to pay up on LNER, holding a GC only ticket, it's your criminal record potentially on the line.

As much as I would be incensed if I were an affected passenger, we have to consider the crazy legal system within which the railways operate. I think something that is certainly lacking is a legal balancing of rights - it should, IMO, be a criminal offence for GC, HT or any other similar public transport operator to strand passengers who have booked their tickets in good faith and are now required to extend a line of interest-free credit to GC due to their utter corporate incompetence and unbelievable decisions.

 

[LowLevel]

If GC declared CSL2 (customer service level 2) then other TOCs are obliged to accept their tickets unless there's a very compelling reason otherwise. For whatever reason they don't seem to be doing so.

 

[43096]

I'm very intrigued that the Chief Executive of Transport Focus describes the decision to travel with Grand Central as the customer taking "a risk" of being stranded. Perhaps he doesn't want people to travel with GC?

Transport Focus is funded by DfT. DfT does not want open access operators.

 

[ainsworth74]

I must admit I don't think LNER have done anything wrong here. Sunday afternoon from Kings Cross their trains are always heaving already (particularly on the London - Scotland service group which GC passengers would have been on) without having to absorb what were probably also very busy GC services passenger loads.

To me the issue here is very much that GC have abandoned all responsibility towards their passengers. I'm not clear on all the legalities but it seems dubious to make a customer with a contract for services pay twice for that service. Certainly under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 they have an obligation to tell the consumer the total price of the services in question. So without some warning that the contract is subject to additional charges in some circumstances (and actually that get out clause I think only exists for distance selling not, for example, if you'd bought at a station or from a guard) I'd say they're on shaky ground to charge the consumer more even with an offer of a refund at a later date.

Far better for GC to have sent a group of people down there armed with ticket machines to issue new tickets to anyone who can show a valid GC ticket. I think from a legal perspective they would have been on much firmer footing and certainly from a PR point of view that is a much more acceptable outcome as the passenger isn't having to pay potential hundreds extra to undertake a journey they had already contracted and paid a company to provide.

I also think that the wording of their message was iffy. What if someone had an Any Permitted ticket but had booked onto Grand Central? From the reading of their initial announcement it would be very easy to assume that they also need to buy a new ticket when, of course, their ticket was already valid on LNER!

 

[bussnapperwm]

What makes me laugh is that people are expected to pay out for an additional ticket and claim it back.

What about those who do not have the funds to do so. Effectively they could be stranded.

 

[Darandio]

I could have sworn I saw a post in this thread regarding similar instances a while ago whereby GC staff were on platforms exchanging tickets to allow travel on other operators. I cannot find it now.

Anyway, this exchange happened on Twitter today:

Because of your on going problems why don't you stop issuing GC only tickets and issue ordinary ones which can be used on any operator?

Those are available to purchase and it is the customers choice which tickets they choose to purchase. ^RS

Nearly into the realms of the classic VTEC smart arse reply there! Of course the customer has a choice, but if choosing the GC only ticket means they have to fork out again when the service goes tits up.....

 

[TUC]

T

This afternoon both 1653 and 1822 London KX to Sunderland Grand Central (GC) services are cancelled.

According to GC, customers should purchase new tickets in order to complete their journeys:

View attachment 49246

Transcription:


In my view train companies should not use solely text contained within images to provide service updates.

There's something odd here as I was affected by a cancelled GC train only last week and the tickets were instead accepted on the next LNER service.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

T


There's something odd here as I was affected by a cancelled GC train only last week and the tickets were instead accepted on the next LNER service.

What day of the week was this - and what time? Sunday evenings may be just about the worst time for this kind of thing to happen (and that was when yesterday's events happened) - as virtually all walk-up tickets are valid, there are many people wanting to go home, plus there are fewer trains than there are during the weekday timetable. If your cancellation happened on another day or at another time then it's quite possible LNER had the requisite space to pick up the stranded passengers without issue.

 

[TUC]

What day of the week was this - and what time? Sunday evenings may be just about the worst time for this kind of thing to happen (and that was when yesterday's events happened) - as virtually all walk-up tickets are valid, there are many people wanting to go home, plus there are fewer trains than there are during the weekday timetable. If your cancellation happened on another day or at another time then it's quite possible LNER had the requisite space to pick up the stranded passengers without issue.

It was last Wed on the 1627 KX to Bradford, for which passengers were directed onto the 1633 LNER to Leeds. It wasn't a quiet time of day for LNER. The train was full to standing as far as Grantham.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It was last Wed on the 1627 KX to Bradford, for which passengers were directed onto the 1633 LNER to Leeds. It wasn't a quiet time of day for LNER. The train was full to standing as far as Grantham.

Fair enough - not ideal but probably not quite as bad as yesterday. In any case it's down to LNER - unless and until GC declare CSL2, their only obligation to carry passengers with GC-only tickets is that specified under Condition 28.2 of the NRCoT, which is a qualified right insofaras it only applies if a Train Company can reasonably assist. The only other option is as I suggested, that GC could have bought stranded passengers interavailable walkup tickets on production of a valid GC-only ticket.

 

[robertclark125]

The way that the sale of goods act applies, when you purchase a product or a service from someone, you've entered into a contract with that provider. In this instance, if Grand Central are unable to provide the service, to tell passengers that they would have to send in their Grand Central ticket for a refund, and not the LNER ticket would be correct, as that GC ticket is the contract between you and GC.

Grand Central were actually suggesting passengers travel via the Midland Main Line. That may have spare seating capacity, but it would be a longer journey.

 

[Andyh82]

Surely they could have laid on some replacement buses. London isn’t in the back of beyond, there are many coach companies in the area.

I wonder if you would get a refund on both the GC ticket, as the service was cancelled, and the LNER ticket, as they’ve said they will refund it.

With all these issues, cancellations that have been going on months, I do wonder how they keep winning all the awards and the ‘best operator’ gongs. I suppose they are under the radar somewhat.

 

[ASharpe]

With all these issues, cancellations that have been going on months, I do wonder how they keep winning all the awards and the ‘best operator’ gongs. I suppose they are under the radar somewhat.

Probably because they cater for infrequent travelers: little confusion over which train to catch, probably only taking the one train from Brighouse or Eagglescliffe to London, got a seat reservation and didn't have to stand and faster then national express. Their offer is very different to that of the franchised tocs.

 

[Silver Cobra]

This is the kind of issue that makes me grateful that my planned upcoming journeys with Grand Central and Hull Trains are on an ALR. In the advent their services are cancelled, there's no issue with catching an LNER service instead (with one exception: my journey with HT is on the 0726 from Kings Cross to Hull, so I couldn't use LNER in that case, and instead would have to use Thameslink to Peterborough and catch an LNER service from there ).

I do wonder if there was anyone yesterday who could not afford to purchase a new ticket to travel on an LNER service, and what Grand Central did to assist them.

 

[TUC]

Also slightly odd that, if LNER wasn't an option, they didn't divert passengers onto the two GC West Yorkshire services that sfternoon and then transfer then at Doncaster (or Wakefield Kirkgate omto a further change at Leeds) onto a combination of Northern and Cross Country services (as fellow Arriva companies) to get people home. OK.the GC West Yorkshire servoces may already have been heavilty booked, but it would hsve been better than no offer at all).

 

[Roger100]

For some of us, the options other than GC are not very easy or attractive. I travel to and from London from Hartlepool. If the GC train doesn't run the only other option is to get a local train or two to Newcastle, or a couple of local trains to York. I can't just hop on an LNER or other train to London because there aren't any.

Obviously I have no right to get a train from Hartlepool to London and back. I'm just pleased that the service exists. If it were lost my trips would take longer, cost more and be much less convenient.

 

[Starmill]

David Horne of LNER says that there was "not enough room full stop" - not even for those displaced GC customers purchasing new tickets.
twitter.com/DavidHorne/status/1016030369500618757?s=19

Does he mean that they were turned away?

LNER's official twitter account said both that there was and was not ticket acceptance. At one point they said that there was but that everyone must speak to the train manager before boarding to see if they would accept their tickets. Is that not mutually exclusive with the idea of 'ticket acceptance'?

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1016267070206554113?s=19

A deeply confused picture from all sides.

I've written to Transport Focus to ask them to provide clarification on their advice to customers who might be looking to buy tickets to travel with Grand Central.

 

[Leisurefirst]

I have posted some time ago I think regarding "interesting" situation when we arrived at King's Cross one Saturday morning to board the first GC service to York wanting to buy off-peak GC only returns to find it cancelled and NXEC (as was then) staff in the ticket office refused to sell any GC only tickets as the service was cancelled and tickets were being accepted on NXEC. A GC representative who helping customers buy the tickets on the card on machines in the ticket office was shouted at by a NXEC staff member to stop or he'd "have every GC ticket holder off the train" or suchlike. Also overhead "what rubbish we getting on here now?" at the barrier.
Eventually GC staff member obtained a ticket machine from somewhere and sold us the tickets and we were able to board a subsequent NXEC service though resulting in a big delay for us due to missing the Whitby bus at York!
Certainly no love lost.