Hertfordshire - what happened?

[Teflon Lettuce]

To get this thread back to the original question of what happened, perhaps it would be good to look at the history..

The majority of Hertfordshire fell into the LTPB in the 30's and as such most bus services were operated by London Transport Country dept. In 1970, these services were transferred to NBC as London Country... and anyone who knows the history of the company knows it was a very troubled birth. LCBS had, by the early 80's got it's act largely together, only to be divided at the very last minute just before D-day in 1986.

As part of the splitting process, Watford and Hemel passed to LCNW, with the rest of the Hertfordshire depots passing to LCNE. The fact that LCNE was a basket case of a company is a matter of record, having poor industrial relations from the off, and being the very last company sold from NBC... the sale in itself was a basket case of the deal, with the depots being sold off separately. This sewed the seeds for the slow collapse of services in Hertfordshire.

However, Hertfordshire, like Surrey, took the decision in the run up to D-day to ensure that they secured the same network as was extant before d-day, presumably based on the idea that London Country's operating costs, and therefore block grant payments, were some of the highest in the UK. The surprise at the time was that LCNE won so much of the work tendered in it's area, however it soon became apparent that it had won the work at too low a cost and reliability issues ensued. Matters came to a head after the new owners of LCNE imposed new contracts of employment resulting in a long strike. Hertfordshire terminated a number of their contracts and re-tendered them... destabilising LCNE even further... along with the bus network. New entrants notoriously introduced competing networks in Stevenage and Hatfield/ WGC... LCNE was split, split again, sold off in bits... eventually the majority of these bits all ended up under Arriva the Shires....

Arriva is not renowned for it's public service ethic, and is absolutely ruthless in it's expectations of a certain profit margin; nor is it renowned for it's ability to grow it's custom.. in fact it could be said that, at best, Arriva is only good at managing decline... so in Hertfordshire the result was cut after cut after cut.

Hertfordshire tried to keep the network together as best it could, but by the early 00's the strain was becoming apparent.. and then came the credit crunch in 2008 and "austerity" followed by savage cuts to council budgets... in the end HCC had to give up on it's ideal of holding the network together and had to withdraw many subsidised services.

Some companies tried to ameliorate some of these cuts by diverting commercial services to provide some links, hence now interurban services operating via housing estates rather straight down the main roads out of town... leading to longer journey times.. and a more unattractive product... cue more losses of passengers and cuts to services!

I know this has been a longwinded explanation but even this has been a severely edited version of events... the truth is that Hertfordshire's bus services are a victim of history and circumstance

 

[A0]

To get this thread back to the original question of what happened, perhaps it would be good to look at the history..

The majority of Hertfordshire fell into the LTPB in the 30's and as such most bus services were operated by London Transport Country dept. In 1970, these services were transferred to NBC as London Country... and anyone who knows the history of the company knows it was a very troubled birth. LCBS had, by the early 80's got it's act largely together, only to be divided at the very last minute just before D-day in 1986.

As part of the splitting process, Watford and Hemel passed to LCNW, with the rest of the Hertfordshire depots passing to LCNE. The fact that LCNE was a basket case of a company is a matter of record, having poor industrial relations from the off, and being the very last company sold from NBC... the sale in itself was a basket case of the deal, with the depots being sold off separately. This sewed the seeds for the slow collapse of services in Hertfordshire.

However, Hertfordshire, like Surrey, took the decision in the run up to D-day to ensure that they secured the same network as was extant before d-day, presumably based on the idea that London Country's operating costs, and therefore block grant payments, were some of the highest in the UK. The surprise at the time was that LCNE won so much of the work tendered in it's area, however it soon became apparent that it had won the work at too low a cost and reliability issues ensued. Matters came to a head after the new owners of LCNE imposed new contracts of employment resulting in a long strike. Hertfordshire terminated a number of their contracts and re-tendered them... destabilising LCNE even further... along with the bus network. New entrants notoriously introduced competing networks in Stevenage and Hatfield/ WGC... LCNE was split, split again, sold off in bits... eventually the majority of these bits all ended up under Arriva the Shires....

Arriva is not renowned for it's public service ethic, and is absolutely ruthless in it's expectations of a certain profit margin; nor is it renowned for it's ability to grow it's custom.. in fact it could be said that, at best, Arriva is only good at managing decline... so in Hertfordshire the result was cut after cut after cut.

Hertfordshire tried to keep the network together as best it could, but by the early 00's the strain was becoming apparent.. and then came the credit crunch in 2008 and "austerity" followed by savage cuts to council budgets... in the end HCC had to give up on it's ideal of holding the network together and had to withdraw many subsidised services.

Some companies tried to ameliorate some of these cuts by diverting commercial services to provide some links, hence now interurban services operating via housing estates rather straight down the main roads out of town... leading to longer journey times.. and a more unattractive product... cue more losses of passengers and cuts to services!

I know this has been a longwinded explanation but even this has been a severely edited version of events... the truth is that Hertfordshire's bus services are a victim of history and circumstance

A very fair summary - though I'd add a couple of observations.

The split of LCBS in c 1985 didn't materially change anything. The depots all had their own 'areas' of operation - any overlaps really were reinforced by the split - so Hemel & Watford had a degree of overlap. So did St Albans, Hatfield and Stevenage.

A criticism which could reasonably be levelled at LCBS, though it was a hangover from its LT parentage, was it actually had too many depots for the area being served. Did it need depots in Hertford, Stevenage, Hatfield, St Albans, Hemel and Watford? Probably not. The obvious consolidation would have been Hatfield and St Albans - neither of which were ideal sites with housing all around them.

LCBS had lost a number of North Herts / Beds services in the late 70s, mainly to United Counties who's costs were much lower than LCBSs.

They actually lost quite a few contracts at the first tendering round when you look back on it - the whole of the Welwyn / Hatfield local network, a number of Stevenage locals, the long-standing 341 and the 733 and contract journeys on the 321 all spring to mind.

The bigger loss during the strike was actually the LRT contracts on the 292, 298 and 313 which passed to BTS and Grey Green respectively. They required alot of vehicles and brought in a fair amount of revenue. Many of the HCC contracts passed to Jubilee Coaches who massively over-stretched themselves and ended up handing back most of them, alot of which ended up with LCNE. And Jubilee ended up being bought out by AJS Group (LCNE's parent company).

I think you're being harsh on Arriva - they've generally managed to sustain the operations they've taken on. First have a much worse record for run-down and retrenchment. I'd say Arriva were no worse than Stagecoach in this respect and have tended to invest in areas keeping their fleets reasonably young.

Not sure I agree with your claim about 'inter urban' services being sent via housing estates where they weren't previously - got any examples in mind? A cursory look at the key 'inter urban' routes such as the 300/301, 321, 724, 500 suggests they're still following the same routes they ever did?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

A criticism which could reasonably be levelled at LCBS, though it was a hangover from its LT parentage, was it actually had too many depots for the area being served. Did it need depots in Hertford, Stevenage, Hatfield, St Albans, Hemel and Watford? Probably not. The obvious consolidation would have been Hatfield and St Albans - neither of which were ideal sites with housing all around them.

I don't think LCBS was any better or worse than other companies in this respect, Luton & District had depots in Hitchin, Luton, Leighton Buzzard {later replaced by Dunstable} and Aylesbury in a smaller area...

LCBS had lost a number of North Herts / Beds services in the late 70s, mainly to United Counties who's costs were much lower than LCBSs.

Not as many as you might think, and what they did lose tended to be the deeply rural services in and around Luton/ Hitchin..and they were in the mid 70's after LCBS closed Luton depot

They actually lost quite a few contracts at the first tendering round when you look back on it - the whole of the Welwyn / Hatfield local network, a number of Stevenage locals, the long-standing 341 and the 733 and contract journeys on the 321 all spring to mind.

The bigger loss during the strike was actually the LRT contracts on the 292, 298 and 313 which passed to BTS and Grey Green respectively. They required alot of vehicles and brought in a fair amount of revenue. Many of the HCC contracts passed to Jubilee Coaches who massively over-stretched themselves and ended up handing back most of them, alot of which ended up with LCNE. And Jubilee ended up being bought out by AJS Group (LCNE's parent company).

Perhaps it would have been a good idea at the time to close Hatfield depot on reflection, but at the time, when the NBC was trying to sell an already difficult company, it would probably have been the death knell for the company, who would want to buy a company that was retrenching only months into it's existence...

I think you're being harsh on Arriva - they've generally managed to sustain the operations they've taken on. First have a much worse record for run-down and retrenchment. I'd say Arriva were no worse than Stagecoach in this respect and have tended to invest in areas keeping their fleets reasonably young.

I don't think I'm being unfair on Arriva at all... one only has to compare service levels in Luton operated by Arriva with levels provided by Stagecoach in Northampton {a similar sized town} or at the way they decimated the MK Metro operations in Milton Keynes to see that Arriva has no real interest in growing it's business... more like milk the customers it already has... and then of course there are the problems it has had at Stevenage which must be driving customers away in their droves!

Not sure I agree with your claim about 'inter urban' services being sent via housing estates where they weren't previously - got any examples in mind? A cursory look at the key 'inter urban' routes such as the 300/301, 321, 724, 500 suggests they're still following the same routes they ever did?

what about Uno services operating via housing estates in St Albans, where previously there were dedicated town services?

 

[A0]

I don't think LCBS was any better or worse than other companies in this respect, Luton & District had depots in Hitchin, Luton, Leighton Buzzard {later replaced by Dunstable} and Aylesbury in a smaller area...

Aylesbury - Hitchin is 31 miles as the crow flies (with a dreadful road link between Aylesbury & Dunstable), Stevenage - Watford is 24 by comparison.

On that basis L&D / UCOC were far more sparing with their depots. Leighton Buzzard was very small and an early casualty.

Not as many as you might think, and what they did lose tended to be the deeply rural services in and around Luton/ Hitchin..and they were in the mid 70's after LCBS closed Luton depot

True - but the change of operator drove the depot closure, not the other way around. And LCBS's operating costs were far higher than their neighbouring companies.

Perhaps it would have been a good idea at the time to close Hatfield depot on reflection, but at the time, when the NBC was trying to sell an already difficult company, it would probably have been the death knell for the company, who would want to buy a company that was retrenching only months into it's existence...

Well, it's what happened in any case. Parkdale Holdings bought the buildings and land - LCNE left both Hatfield and St Albans depots within 5 years - and those depots ended up being consolidated at North Mymms for a long time. It would have been better if St Albans and Hatfield had been closed and consolidated.

I don't think I'm being unfair on Arriva at all... one only has to compare service levels in Luton operated by Arriva with levels provided by Stagecoach in Northampton {a similar sized town} or at the way they decimated the MK Metro operations in Milton Keynes to see that Arriva has no real interest in growing it's business... more like milk the customers it already has... and then of course there are the problems it has had at Stevenage which must be driving customers away in their droves!

Stagecoach for many years had a level of competition in Northampton - that's now gone and there has been some consolidation and reduction. Northampton's quite different to Luton though - geographically it's much more spread out than Luton and with a stronger town network - whereas Luton's long had a lot more services to other towns.

what about Uno services operating via housing estates in St Albans, where previously there were dedicated town services?

There's only one that really falls into that - the 653. Now interestingly whilst you're right, those areas did used to have a 'local' service, for many years services like the 340 terminated in those areas as well - Marshalswick and Firbank Road at different times. I'd argue this one is actually beneficial - New Greens Jersey Farm and Marshalswick now get a service to beyond St Albans - in the case of the latter two it's quicker than it used to be owing to the route they leave St Albans, whereas in the past the 340 went from Marshalswick to the town centre then out.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Aylesbury - Hitchin is 31 miles as the crow flies (with a dreadful road link between Aylesbury & Dunstable), Stevenage - Watford is 24 by comparison.

On that basis L&D / UCOC were far more sparing with their depots. Leighton Buzzard was very small and an early casualty.

but of course Aylesbury- Hitchin have a lot more empty space between them than Stevenage- Watford.. my point was that UCOC/L&D maintained depots in each town... just like LCBS... and Leighton Buzzard only closed on the opening of Dunstable

True - but the change of operator drove the depot closure, not the other way around. And LCBS's operating costs were far higher than their neighbouring companies.

As I understood it from a neighbour that worked for LCBS from Luton at the time, the Luton depot was, to put it kindly, decrepit and in need of major investment, many of it's routes were marginal at best even then. With the collapse of Court Line and the introduction of block grants NBC felt it would be a good idea to recast the route network in the area {roughly Hemel- south of Luton- Hitchin} and have it all operated by one operator. Granted consideration would've been given to which company could do it the cheapest, but in reality it just made sense to close the small depot of one operator and transfer all operations to the larger operator... which is what happened.

Well, it's what happened in any case. Parkdale Holdings bought the buildings and land - LCNE left both Hatfield and St Albans depots within 5 years - and those depots ended up being consolidated at North Mymms for a long time. It would have been better if St Albans and Hatfield had been closed and consolidated.

There's no doubt that basically being a new company and not having any depots that it could call it's own was a recipe for disaster... especially in an area of high land values... LCNE was privatised in such a way that it was doomed from the start.

Stagecoach for many years had a level of competition in Northampton - that's now gone and there has been some consolidation and reduction. Northampton's quite different to Luton though - geographically it's much more spread out than Luton and with a stronger town network - whereas Luton's long had a lot more services to other towns.

I would say that, adding in Dunstable and Houghton Regis, Luton's conurbation is spread over a similar area to Northampton. Certainly at deregulation Luton had a much more intensive town network than that operated in Northampton by NT and UC combined...

but to give another example to show the different ethos of the 2 companies... look at Bedford a much smaller town than Luton... and look at the difference in service levels between the 2... and also note that Stagecoach has a virtual monopoly, at least on the town network.

There's only one that really falls into that - the 653. Now interestingly whilst you're right, those areas did used to have a 'local' service, for many years services like the 340 terminated in those areas as well - Marshalswick and Firbank Road at different times. I'd argue this one is actually beneficial - New Greens Jersey Farm and Marshalswick now get a service to beyond St Albans - in the case of the latter two it's quicker than it used to be owing to the route they leave St Albans, whereas in the past the 340 went from Marshalswick to the town centre then out.

I think that's the problem with the way routes in Hertfordshire are diverted to estates... normal practice elsewhere where town routes are amalgamated to inter-urban routes is that the town route will be tagged onto a service exiting the town on the opposite side... not as is the case in hertfordshire.. diverted on a loop round on the same side of town... and it wasn't just LCNE that was guilty of this... 455 Letchworth- Jackmans comes to mind... extended to Stevenage... with the added bonus that the route in each direction took a totally different route through Jackmans so it could "follow the loop" the same way that the short journeys did... who on earth came up with that brilliant idea?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think I'm being unfair on Arriva at all... one only has to compare service levels in Luton operated by Arriva with levels provided by Stagecoach in Northampton

I'd agree with that. Hemel Hempstead has a population of a hair under 100,000 people. Have you seen the state of the town network these days? Arriva cut frequencies when they brought in the bread vans. Thankfully the bread vans are going, but the frequencies are decreasing again. Big parts of the town have no service. I can't understand it. The villages don't have the demand, I'm not sure the interurban does either, but services in a town of 100,000 people?

Compare it with Stagecoach in, say, Carlisle, a smaller city, smaller catchment area, and an area that's never been prime bus country.

Arriva are truly terrible.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I'd agree with that. Hemel Hempstead has a population of a hair under 100,000 people. Have you seen the state of the town network these days? Arriva cut frequencies when they brought in the bread vans. Thankfully the bread vans are going, but the frequencies are decreasing again. Big parts of the town have no service. I can't understand it. The villages don't have the demand, I'm not sure the interurban does either, but services in a town of 100,000 people?

Compare it with Stagecoach in, say, Carlisle, a smaller city, smaller catchment area, and an area that's never been prime bus country.

Arriva are truly terrible.

It's also notable that, of the big 5, Arriva are the only ones that don't, as a matter of course, publish network maps on their website....I wonder why that is?

then again they seem to find it impossible to publish a full set of timetables for any given town online either!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's also notable that, of the big 5, Arriva are the only ones that don't, as a matter of course, publish network maps on their website....I wonder why that is?

then again they seem to find it impossible to publish a full set of timetables for any given town online either!

The Arriva website is pretty awful to navigate etc and the content pretty awful too.

In terms of its operations, The Shires was a decent business about 15 years ago but it's lost its way very badly. There are some decent Arriva Opcos (such as Wales, Yorkshire and North East - the latter being a lot better than it was ten years ago) but Shires (and indeed Midlands) have not been well managed for a while.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The Arriva website is pretty awful to navigate etc and the content pretty awful too.

In terms of its operations, The Shires was a decent business about 15 years ago but it's lost its way very badly. There are some decent Arriva Opcos (such as Wales, Yorkshire and North East - the latter being a lot better than it was ten years ago) but Shires (and indeed Midlands) have not been well managed for a while.

you mean the Shires is actually MANAGED???!!!

 

[spuddie]

"Well, it's what happened in any case. Parkdale Holdings bought the buildings and land - LCNE left both Hatfield and St Albans depots within 5 years - and those depots ended up being consolidated at North Mymms for a long time. It would have been better if St Albans and Hatfield had been closed and consolidated."

Not quite, Hatfield ended up going to a site which was an old petrol station in Welwyn Garden City by Stanborough for a little while before going to North Mymms. St Albans closed and moved to another site nearer Marshalswick which was next door to the council vehicles base.

North Mymms eventually closed and moved to Hatfield sharing a garage with Uno, St Albans stayed until purchased by Uno (after a brief spell with Centrebus inbetween) and was also then merged back in to Hatfield.

There was talk at one point during Sovereign days of merging all three depots together somewhere in the Hatfield Business Park area as it would be close to St Albans and Stevenage vehicles could jump straight on to the A1.

 

[CMS]

I think that's the problem with the way routes in Hertfordshire are diverted to estates... normal practice elsewhere where town routes are amalgamated to inter-urban routes is that the town route will be tagged onto a service exiting the town on the opposite side... not as is the case in hertfordshire.. diverted on a loop round on the same side of to

I agree, it is very unattractive to users and is not as great in terms of reliability. It also means that when there is disruption on that estate, the whole route suffers. There are too many examples of this in Herts now: 306, 341/641, 653, the Lea Valley local routes... I see that East Kent have worryingly started adopting this too following their service revisions in Ashford and Folkestone/Dover. One thing that seems to aggravate this further is Uno’s lack of recovery time at termini. Apart from the 602 and some 614 journeys, it would seem to me as if there is hardly more than 10 mins. Given the chronic Hertfordshire congestion, it doesn’t seem too wise to me. Now I understand why when I’ve been on a Uno bus they all try and race to the terminus - they just want a breather!

I'd agree with that. Hemel Hempstead has a population of a hair under 100,000 people. Have you seen the state of the town network these days?

Indeed, there always seems to be alterations to the Hemel network, not entirely Arriva’s fault but it would suggest that something isn’t working. On the other hand, their trunk inter-urban routes seem to be doing ok. In France and on a few networks around the country (East Kent, Portsmouth etc), most/all changes are generally done in the last week of August and left for a year to see if they’re successful or not, and things are generally more stable.


Having said all of this, I think buses in Herts aren’t doing too bad compared to the trains recently.

 

[Statto]

It's also notable that, of the big 5, Arriva are the only ones that don't, as a matter of course, publish network maps on their website....I wonder why that is?

then again they seem to find it impossible to publish a full set of timetables for any given town online either!

Arriva do publish network maps, but for some areas, not all areas & mostly Town maps, from the main page click on the region, scroll down the left hand side you should see Town & Region service maps.

Arriva site is awful though, timetable list is weird, sort of, 1, 10, 100, 101, 11, 133, rather than 1, 2, 3 ecc, & try & navigate to how much the fares are, mess of a site.

 

[Busaholic]

Arriva do publish network maps, but for some areas, not all areas & mostly Town maps, from the main page click on the region, scroll down the left hand side you should see Town & Region service maps.

Arriva site is awful though, timetable list is weird, sort of, 1, 10, 100, 101, 11, 133, rather than 1, 2, 3 ecc, & try & navigate to how much the fares are, mess of a site.

That's a sign of someone innumerate compiling the list.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

That's a sign of someone innumerate compiling the list.

I think it's more that the website was designed on such a shoe string they couldn't stump up for the builder to spend 5 minutes on writing an algorithm... to a computer 1, 10, 101,11, 133 is the correct order...

 

[Busaholic]

I think it's more that the website was designed on such a shoe string they couldn't stump up for the builder to spend 5 minutes on writing an algorithm... to a computer 1, 10, 101,11, 133 is the correct order...

Nothing more illiterate than an innumerate computer! I had great fun writing that sentence.

 

[PeterC]

I think it's more that the website was designed on such a shoe string they couldn't stump up for the builder to spend 5 minutes on writing an algorithm... to a computer 1, 10, 101,11, 133 is the correct order...

It is the correct order if they are sorted alphabetically rather than numerically. As long as you have X prefixes or A suffixes on route numbers that is how you have to do it unless you lay the whole lot out manually or write a complex sort algo which will throw a wobbly as soon as somebody comes up with a silly new route identifier.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It is the correct order if they are sorted alphabetically rather than numerically. As long as you have X prefixes or A suffixes on route numbers that is how you have to do it unless you lay the whole lot out manually or write a complex sort algo which will throw a wobbly as soon as somebody comes up with a silly new route identifier.

I think you miss the point... the correct order for a route list would be 1, 10, 11, 101, 133... all other companies manage to put their route lists in the correct order... only Arriva have this nonsensical order on their websites... because they developed it on the cheap and failed to pay for the algorithm needed to sort into correct HUMAN order!... then again Arriva have never been renowned for spending money on fripparies that might just attract a couple of customers....

 

[Busaholic]

I think you miss the point... the correct order for a route list would be 1, 10, 11, 101, 133... all other companies manage to put their route lists in the correct order... only Arriva have this nonsensical order on their websites... because they developed it on the cheap and failed to pay for the algorithm needed to sort into correct HUMAN order!... then again Arriva have never been renowned for spending money on fripparies that might just attract a couple of customers....

Precisely! I was a bookseller. I can imagine the furore if a 200 page book was produced with page 1 being followed by page 10 etc (it was bad enough when whole sections got left out e.g. pages 64 to 95). I've never lived in Arrivaland, which sounds fortunate, apparently.

 

[PeterC]

Precisely! I was a bookseller. I can imagine the furore if a 200 page book was produced with page 1 being followed by page 10 etc (it was bad enough when whole sections got left out e.g. pages 64 to 95). I've never lived in Arrivaland, which sounds fortunate, apparently.

A book doesn't have pages 7A or X74.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

A book doesn't have pages 7A or X74.

But the point is that, as a consumer, potential or otherwise, the ordinary person would expect a list of routes to be in a logical- to them- sequence. They would expect to find 2 after 1 but before 3 and certainly before 10! The fact that Arriva's route lists do not follow this logical, human, sequence means it is difficult to find what you want on their website and more likely that the average joe will look elsewhere for ways to complete their journey {usually meaning car}... and all for the sake of a few quid expenditure when originally building their site...

Add to that that when Arriva originally rebuilt it's site this problem was raised by many people and they were met by dumb silence- or at best a "we will look into it" with no intention of doing so {as evidenced by the fact that the website was rebuilt 2 or 3 yrs ago and the problem is still there} says it all to the average person as to Arriva's wanting their custom

 

[Busaholic]

A book doesn't have pages 7A or X74.

In the case of 7A or any other suffix neither does TfL!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Add to that that when Arriva originally rebuilt it's site this problem was raised by many people and they were met by dumb silence- or at best a "we will look into it" with no intention of doing so {as evidenced by the fact that the website was rebuilt 2 or 3 yrs ago and the problem is still there} says it all to the average person as to Arriva's wanting their custom

Not wishing to dole out kickings but one of my industry pals was, at the time, working for Arriva. I did say how terrible and user unfriendly the website was at the time (the original recast not the rebuild of 2015) and they agreed. Their view was to think it was a developer being too clever and not anticipating what a real customer might want.

They also agreed that it really shouldn't have been signed off - I think their views were expressed but just wasn't at that level to do anything. The fact it is still so poor (when First and Go Ahead seems so much easier) is terrible.