Two trips in one day, what if delay causes missed second trip?

[trainophile]

Hopefully this is just a theoretical question, but we’re on our way to Carlisle this morning, and after an hour there during which we will drop off our luggage at the hotel, we’re then popping over to Carnforth. (I realise we’ll be doubling back on ourselves but the Carnforth trip was an afterthought, and we would rather not drag our luggage around.)

All tickets are Advances, and we’ve just been advised at Wigan NW that our 0938 is running late. I believe there’s a problem with a fire between Crewe and Warrington BQ which may be the reason.

In the unlikely event of arriving at Carlisle too late for our jaunt to Carnforth, could we take the next train?

 

[Romilly]

It would seem that you are almost at Oxenholme, and only about 12 minutes late, so the chances are that you will be fine.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yes - providing you adhere to the operator restrictions on your tickets; I'm assuming it's Virgin to Carlisle to Lancaster then & Connections to Carnforth.

If your next option is the Northern Stopper you could ask the Guard if they will accept you. However, all of these trains take an additional two hours for the trip.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s interesting to see the OP classify this as two trips, which in my view it clearly is. I’d be hesitant about saying he would definitely be protected.

 

[trainophile]

Arrived at Carlisle okay but things are getting worse. Now stuck at Lancaster as the Barrow train is about 24 minutes late so far. We were only going to have an hour and 20 minutes at Carnforth, now it will be under an hour.

Changed original plan to come back in time to get to Carlisle Castle for the poppy weeping wall, so we’ve already wasted our original tickets back from Carnforth (or rather back from Lancaster, the CNF-LAN bit should be covered by the original tickets).

Sometimes I wonder if it’s worth it .

 

[Silverdale]

It’s interesting to see the OP classify this as two trips, which in my view it clearly is. I’d be hesitant about saying he would definitely be protected.

My first thought was that it is clearly two journeys.

But (devil's advocate) if, instead of wanting to change trains at Carlisle for the purpose of taking luggage to an hotel, the OP had simply intended travelling up and down the northern WCML all day on a series of advance tickets, and one or more trains were delayed, why, exactly would the rule about being able to take the next available train not apply?

It is not as if connecting services are defined as they often used to be. Any train timetabled to arrive to give at least the specified connection time appears to qualify, so why would the OP's not?

 

[AlterEgo]

My first thought was that it is clearly two journeys.

But (devil's advocate) if, instead of wanting to change trains at Carlisle for the purpose of taking luggage to an hotel, the OP had simply intended travelling up and down the northern WCML all day on a series of advance tickets, and one or more trains were delayed, why, exactly would the rule about being able to take the next available train not apply?

It is not as if connecting services are defined as they often used to be. Any train timetabled to arrive to give at least the specified connection time appears to qualify, so why would the OP's not?

This is basically revisiting the definition of a journey. In my mind when you travel one place for a purpose, then travel to a second place for a separate purpose, that’s two journeys.

You can make one journey using multiple tickets and likewise you can make multiple journeys using one ticket.

 

[Mag_seven]

My first thought was that it is clearly two journeys.

When does "one journey" become "two journeys" or "three journeys" etc. For the sake of argument if I using AP's plan to travel Preston to Carlisle then Carlisle to Preston, then Preston to Carlisle then Carlisle back to Preston again on the same day using AP's for each separate train complying with all connection allowances, is that "one journey" such that if a connection on one of the legs is missed I will be able to use the AP ticket on the next (same TOC) service?

 

[trainophile]

That’s really why I asked the original question, which in the event didn’t apply to my plans. I’m glad you got the gist of what I was pondering on.

31 minutes late arriving at Carnforth so maybe a claim going in to Northern!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think it is arguable both ways, TBH.

Since the abolition of the definition of "journey" in the NRCoT, the only kind of definition which can legally be relied upon is the ordinary definition of the word, which may be found in the Oxford English Dictionary: "An act of travelling from one place to another."

The use of "another" suggests that a circular 'journey' cannot be a 'journey' at all, since you are, in net, not going anywhere! Nevertheless you are undoubtedly travelling, and you are undoubedtly not staying in the same place. I think it is very difficult to decide really.

All I can think is NRCoT 9.4:

Where you are using a Ticket valid on a specific train service or train services (such as an ‘advance’ Ticket) and you miss a service because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty.

... which embodies what I think any reasonable Court would agree as a general principle - one party to a contract (the TOCs) cannot frustrate the other party (you) from exercising a right (to travel) because of their own breach of contract (their train being late, making you miss a connection).

 

[Silverdale]

I suggest that, if a customer brought a case on the basis that they had been denied travel on the next train service, rather than engage general principles of contract law, a Court would first look very carefully at what was specified in NRCoT.

9.4 states that the customer using a ticket valid on a specified service will be able to travel on the next train service, in certain circumstances. Those circumstances don't relate to the journey being being undertaken, or the specified service(s) part in that journey, merely that a specified service was missed because a previous connecting service was delayed.

It would appear to apply to any journey, even one which was circular or an A-B-A-B shuttle.

 

[bb21]

That’s really why I asked the original question, which in the event didn’t apply to my plans. I’m glad you got the gist of what I was pondering on.

31 minutes late arriving at Carnforth so maybe a claim going in to Northern!

I am not going to get involved in the discussion about what constitutes a "journey" as it is rather pointless in this context.

What is important for the customer to decide is where his destination is. The railway of course have an obligation to convey the customer to his destination provided that minimum connection times are adhered to in the customer's original plan. What is not covered is the right to take whatever esoteric route the customer may have originally wanted to, so in the example of someone wishing to shuttle back and forth along the same stretch of track, the customer cannot insist on doing the journey exactly as per original plan. The refusal of any offer to convey him directly to his destination may be viewed in a very dim light in the event of the customer subsequently missing the last connection, by both the train company and the court.

If delay to a journey rendered the original purpose of your journey pointless, you can seek a refund for your tickets. Most TOCs would grant the refund on both legs in these cases AIUI, although there may also be implications from consumer rights legislation nowadays, but I haven't delved too deep into the latter atm.

 

[Silverdale]

The question asked was about the ability of a customer travelling with a ticket which is only valid on a specified train, to travel on another train, if a delay to a connecting train causes them to miss the specified train. It would seem to be covered by the conditions of travel quoted in #10, irrespective of any prior or subsequent legs of the journey.

The obligation of the railway, should delays or cancellations prevent a rail journey being completed is a different issue entirely. The obligation is only to transport the customer to their destination, not to complete all or any intermediate legs of the journey. So in a situation such as the OP's where tickets were held for the Wigan-Carlisle-Carnforth-Carlisle itinerary, the railway is obligated to transport the customer to Carlisle from whatever point in the journey the customer has reached if and when delays or cancellations mean that no further progress is possible by train services.

 

[paddington]

What is important for the customer to decide is where his destination is. The railway of course have an obligation to convey the customer to his destination provided that minimum connection times are adhered to in the customer's original plan.

What if my destination is "shuttling around on the same stretch of track"? A lot of my days out involve taking several trains back and forth the entire day, but I try to be sensible because I actually want my plans to work, so I generally won't buy advances... if there's a delay it's usually quite profitable for me because I get compensated for one journey based on the rover/ranger price, making the rest of the "shuttling" half-price or free...

 

[Silverdale]

"shuttling around on the same stretch of track" is a journey, not a destination.

 

[stuart]

In any discussion on Delay Repay, it's worth remembering how fortunate we are as rail passengers to have such a scheme. Travel with a budget airline from Edinburgh to London (say) and if you're an hour late you'll get nothing. And if as a result you miss your planned connecting flight to Paris with the same airline, that ticket is "lost" and you start again. (The airlines call it a "point to point" policy.)

The Delay Repay scheme isn't perfect, but it at least acknowledges the principle applying to retail sales of goods that if something isn't "fit for purpose" you get your money back. What neither the Sale of Goods Act nor the Delay Repay scheme covers is consequential loss. If a delayed journey means that I turn up for work an hour late, the scheme isn't meant to compensate me for loss of earnings, it's merely there to recognise that the product (the journey) was not fit for purpose.

So in answering the original question, I'd come at it from the perpective that a journey ends as soon as you do something which isn't necessarily required in the course of travelling from origin to destination. If you break your travel at point X to change trains, then the onward travel is part of the same journey. But if you break for a private purpose then the journey is over and any subsequent loss (including failure of later travel plans) is a consequential loss. Protection for that could presumably be obtained by appropriate business or travel insurance cover.

 

[Starmill]

Arrived at Carlisle okay but things are getting worse. Now stuck at Lancaster as the Barrow train is about 24 minutes late so far. We were only going to have an hour and 20 minutes at Carnforth, now it will be under an hour.

Changed original plan to come back in time to get to Carlisle Castle for the poppy weeping wall, so we’ve already wasted our original tickets back from Carnforth (or rather back from Lancaster, the CNF-LAN bit should be covered by the original tickets).

Sometimes I wonder if it’s worth it .

Well in the case of Advance tickets it is often not worth it.

If there is a big risk of you needing to change your plans, then I would always question the percentage saving of using Advance tickets. For example (I recall both of you travel with a railcard) so a Carlisle to Lancaster Off Peak Day Return is £14.70 (or £1.55 cheaper if you get TransPennine Only, but I would not if it were me). I don't know what you paid for your Advance tickets but I imagine it was difficult to get tickets both ways at a cost significantly lower than £7.35. There is also £2.20 to consider for a Lancaster to Carforth CDR. Against this there is the benefit that all of these tickets can simply be bought on the day of travel, after your plans to visit towns or attractions have been firmed up.


Of course, in many cases now its easy to get your Advances changed free of charge - using the XC website and others.

 

[Starmill]

Protection for that could presumably be obtained by appropriate business or travel insurance cover.

This is quite true. However in my view the train companies are not excluded from issues of consequential losses.

 

[trainophile]

Well in the case of Advance tickets it is often not worth it.

If there is a big risk of you needing to change your plans, then I would always question the percentage saving of using Advance tickets. For example (I recall both of you travel with a railcard) so a Carlisle to Lancaster Off Peak Day Return is £14.70 (or £1.55 cheaper if you get TransPennine Only, but I would not if it were me). I don't know what you paid for your Advance tickets but I imagine it was difficult to get tickets both ways at a cost significantly lower than £7.35. There is also £2.20 to consider for a Lancaster to Carforth CDR. Against this there is the benefit that all of these tickets can simply be bought on the day of travel, after your plans to visit towns or attractions have been firmed up.


Of course, in many cases now its easy to get your Advances changed free of charge - using the XC website and others.

You are absolutely right, but buying Advance tickets becomes something of a habit, and it's just assumed that that's the cheapest way. I paid £8.60 each for CAR-CNF, and the same back, plus a further £11.20 each for the revised tickets to come back earlier than originally planned. Total waste of money really, when I could have retained flexibility by getting less restricted tickets . Especially as we ended up with only 50 minutes at Carnforth. Another lesson learned!

I didn't know about the Poppies until about three days beforehand, by which time it was too late to get amended tickets sent as we would have left home before they arrived.

 

[Starmill]

I didn't know about the Poppies until about three days beforehand, by which time it was too late to get amended tickets sent as we would have left home before they arrived.

Indeed - so there is much to be said for buying your ticket at the station just before travelling in this case. It's often not practical because of the high prices of walk up tickets, but here they are probably better value.