Gillingham - Croydon Weekly travelcard price increase

[Hawkeye448]

And I take it this shake up is what ive now been clobbered by?

My weekly service from Gillingham in Kent to Croydon that I have been using for 2 years has now vanished and the only ticket the confused ticket staff who can no longer find Croydon on the computer can sell me is a London Zones 1-6 which is £11 more each week?

 

[glynn80]

And I take it this shake up is what ive now been clobbered by?

My weekly service from Gillingham in Kent to Croydon that I have been using for 2 years has now vanished and the only ticket the confused ticket staff who can no longer find Croydon on the computer can sell me is a London Zones 1-6 which is £11 more each week?

That is really weird, I have just checked the FRPP (Staff Fares Manual) for the Gillingham to Croydon flow and just as you state the flow no longer has a Seven Day Season but just has the words "7D Use Travelcard", I have never seen this previously in any edition of the FRPP or the NFM for that matter:

I haven't yet done any research to determine the legality of the above but something in the back of my mind makes me think isn't.

 

[Hawkeye448]

That is really weird, I have just checked the FRPP (Staff Fares Manual) for the Gillingham to Croydon flow and just as you state the flow no longer has a Seven Day Season but just has the words "7D Use Travelcard", I have never seen this previously in any edition of the FRPP or the NFM for that matter:

I haven't yet done any research to determine the legality of the above but something in the back of my mind makes me think isn't.

ooh cheers for the speed of that.

Im prepared to accept its an error but ive been meaning to go monthly for some time anyway. Is that still available on the monthly prices of two weeks ago?

 

[John @ home]

Can I suggest that a Moderator takes this and the three previous posts and forms a separate thread? I don't think this issue is actually related to EMT Travelcard Fares. Thanks

My weekly service from Gillingham in Kent to Croydon that I have been using for 2 years has now vanished and the only ticket the confused ticket staff who can no longer find Croydon on the computer can sell me is a London Zones 1-6 which is £11 more each week?

I can confirm that a 7-day season ticket Gillingham (Kent) - Croydon Stations route London was available for at least 10 years until NFM 03 expired on 5 September 2009, and is no longer available. Sample prices, and Gillingham - Zones 1-6 and Gillingham - London prices for comparison, were:

NFM 71: Jan-May 1999: Gillingham (Kent) - Croydon Stations route London 7DS £57.50.
Gillingham (Kent) - London Terminals 7DS £55.00.
Gillingham (Kent) - R1256 Londn 7DS £65.00.

NFM 03: May-Sep 2009: Gillingham (Kent) - Croydon Stations route London 7DS £77.50.
Gillingham (Kent) - London Terminals route Not Valid on HS1 7DS £75.50.
Gillingham (Kent) - R1256 Londn 7DS route Not Valid on HS1 £88.50.

NFM 04: Sep-Dec 2009: Gillingham (Kent) - Croydon Stations route London 7DS No fare.
Gillingham (Kent) - London Terminals route Not Valid on HS1 7DS £75.50.
Gillingham (Kent) - R1256 Londn 7DS route Not Valid on HS1 £88.50.

That is really weird, I have just checked the FRPP (Staff Fares Manual) for the Gillingham to Croydon flow and just as you state the flow no longer has a Seven Day Season but just has the words "7D Use Travelcard", I have never seen this previously in any edition of the FRPP or the NFM for that matter

The instruction "7D Use Travelcard" was not particularly uncommon in Fares Manuals, but it was to be used where the appropriate season ticket would cost more than the appropriate travelcard. That is not the case here, but I don't think the use of "7D Use Travelcard" is related to Hawkeye448's problem.

I haven't yet done any research to determine the legality of the above but something in the back of my mind makes me think isn't.

I agree. Season tickets are regulated fares. The abolition of a season ticket is the abolition of a regulated fare. That should require appropriate permission, probably from DfT. Southeastern set the fares for the Gillingham (Kent) - Croydon Stations flow. I would start by writing to the MD of Southeastern asking for a copy of the correspondence with DfT where they sought, and received, permission to abolish this regulated fare. For good measure, I would also ask what other regulated fares they have abolished since the start of their franchise.

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Im prepared to accept its an error

I don't share your confidence that it's a simple error. Please ignore the words in italics. I fell into the same trap as glynn80 and confused London and not London fares. The £63.50 fare is route Not London and the OP wants a route London ticket. As a temporary work-round, buy a season between Maidstone Stations and Croydon Stations at £63.50 a week. This is valid via Gillingham (Kent) because National Routeing Guide map NK shows that Maidstone - London is valid via Chatham Group, and doubling back between Rochester and Gillingham (Kent) is allowed because both these stations are members of Chatham Group. I'll post again if I find anything better than £63.50.

ive been meaning to go monthly for some time anyway. Is that still available on the monthly prices of two weeks ago?

Unfortunately not. Longer period seasons are calculated from weekly season ticket prices. A monthly costs 3.84 times a weekly, an annual 40 times, other periods are pro rata at the monthly rate.

John

 

[paul1609]

Had a look on the SouthernWebtis site and this offers 2 7-day travelcards to cover a journey from Gillingham (Kent) to East Croydon these are Gillingham (KENT) to Zones 2 to 6 at £74.50 and Gillingham to Zones 1 to 6 at £88.50.
If you enquire via National Rail Enquiries the fastest journey is by changing at London Bridge which would require Zone 1 but if you enquire on traveline you can beat these journeytimes by about 15 mins by traveling by rail to Bromley south and then by bus to East Croydon.
I think that its unlikely to be an illegal fare change by the evil TOCs more likely that Hawkeye has fallen foul of the change in London Zone fares that is being carried (presumably with the knowledge of the DFT) by TFL in the run up to Oyster payg being accepted on Nationalrail.
If you look at the quote by Glynn 80 in the second post of this thread the route is clearly quoted as rte Not London 700. The zone 2 to 6 travelcard would be cheaper that the previous season fare so it is the right advice to use the Zone 2 to 6 travelcard.

 

[glynn80]

I can confirm that a 7-day season ticket Gillingham (Kent) - Croydon Stations route London was available for at least 10 years until NFM 03 expired on 5 September 2009, and is no longer available.

The instruction "7D Use Travelcard" was not particularly uncommon in Fares Manuals, but it was to be used where the appropriate season ticket would cost more than the appropriate travelcard. That is not the case here, but I don't think the use of "7D Use Travelcard" is related to Hawkeye448's problem.

OK, I have done a little digging.

In NFM 03 the following fares were listed for the Croydon to Gillingham (Kent) flow:

In NFM 04 this had altered to the current position as follows:

So in fact the Not London flow already had the "7D Use Travelcard" phrase in situ.

Now obviously some alterations have occured due to the implementation of the CTRL-DS fares policy, in that the Standard Class fares that were previously routes "Any Permitted" have now been moved to a new "Not Valid On HS1" flow (First Class fares have remained in the Any Permitted flow as those are valid on HS1 regardless).

The fare that is missing from the fares manual however is the 7DS rte London that was previously £77.50.

It is the removal of this fare (a regulated commuter fare) that I believe to be illegal (do apologise to paul1609 for confusing the situation slightly, as it has made his post slightly redundant).

 

[John @ home]

Had a look on the SouthernWebtis site and this offers 2 7-day travelcards to cover a journey from Gillingham (Kent) to East Croydon these are Gillingham (KENT) to Zones 2 to 6 at £74.50 and Gillingham to Zones 1 to 6 at £88.50.
If you enquire via National Rail Enquiries the fastest journey is by changing at London Bridge which would require Zone 1 but if you enquire on traveline you can beat these journeytimes by about 15 mins by traveling by rail to Bromley south and then by bus to East Croydon.

Travelling via Bromley + bus would require only a Gillingham to Zones 5 & 6 Travelcard (£59.50). Alternatively, via Beckenham + tram would require a Gillingham to Zones 4 to 6 Travelcard (£67). I have travelled Bromley - Croydon by bus and I think it unlikely that peak traffic conditions would allow a journey faster than by train via London.

If you look at the quote by Glynn 80 in the second post of this thread the route is clearly quoted as rte Not London 700.

But it is the route London fare which has been abolished.

Origin: GILLINGHAM KENT
Destination: CROYDON STATIONS
Tickets: Season
Route: LONDON
Price: 7DF £116.30 SET
7DS £77.50 SET

Origin: GILLINGHAM KENT
Destination: CROYDON STATIONS
Tickets: Season
No fares available for the requested parameters (J002)
Error code F087I

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The fare that is missing from the fares manual however is the 7DS rte London that was previously £77.50.

It is the removal of this fare (a regulated commuter fare) that I believe to be illegal

I agree that the removal of this fare would require DfT permission. I suspect that this has not been requested, and therefore has not been granted.

John

 

[glynn80]

I agree that the removal of this fare would require DfT permission. I suspect that this has not been requested, and therefore has not been granted.

OK, I have found the clause within the Franchise Agreement:

Schedule 5.2

Franchisee's Obligation to Create Fares

1. CREATION OF COMMUTER FARES AND PROTECTED FARES

The franchisee shall ensure that each Commuter Fare and each Protected Fare has been Created; to the extent it is entitled to do so under the terms of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement

Now the Croydon Stations to Gillingham Kent weekly season ticket is a Protected Fare* and one that SET are the lead operator as defined within the TSA. The franchise does permit the Secretary of State to alter fares regulation within the franchise agreement but of course at present we do not know whether this has been granted to SET or not.

* All weekly season tickets, wherever a weekly season ticket existed in February 2003, other than those which are included in a commuter fares basket, are protected fares (for those wondering, no the Gillingham to Croydon season is not located within the commuter fares basket, that is solely for those seasons which are valid wholly within the Travelcard zones). John@home has provided us with proof that the fare has existed as far back as 1999 and therefore we can be sure the fare is protected.

 

[Hawkeye448]

Cheers for the assistance from all. Much appreciated.

Well legit or not, its a change that the ticket staff, or at least the two I spoke to that day have simply not received any pre warning of such an overhaul. Or me the customer for that matter.

Ill await the 2nd response from the website fill out the form way of e-mailing but if this isnt going away im going to have to seriously consider busing it from Bromley. Does seem ludicrous I cant complete the journey on train but I dont think I can financially tolerate an increse of £11 per week. It was already touch and go on £77.50.

The Gillingham to Zones 5 & 6 Travelcard also gets me on the bus does it?

 

[jon0844]

Can you buy a weekly Z1-6 travelcard on an Oyster and a point-to-point (i.e. to the boundary) which may be cheaper still? Sorry if this is what you meant before, as I don't know the boundary station.

FCC allows this on a season ticket, even if the train doesn't stop at the boundary station - but it may be worth checking with the TOC.. or if the train already does stop there.

For some reason (presumably to do with the way the money is shared out), it's some £300 cheaper per year for me to combine two tickets than buy an annual Travelcard from my station. I also get the added benefit of using an Oyster in town, rather than wearing out my paper ticket.

Again, apologies if this is the point of the thread!

 

[glynn80]

Can you buy a weekly Z1-6 travelcard on an Oyster and a point-to-point (i.e. to the boundary) which may be cheaper still? Sorry if this is what you meant before, as I don't know the boundary station.

The method you suggest is way more expensive that just purchasing a Gillingham to Z1-6 Travelcard. The Gillingham to Z1-6 Travelcard is £88.50, whereas a Weekly Z1-6 Travelcard on Oyster and a St Mary Cray to Gillingham seven day season works out at £47.60 + £52.50= £100.10.

 

[jon0844]

That's interesting. I wonder why it's so much cheaper for me the other way around?

 

[John @ home]

The Gillingham to Zones 5 & 6 Travelcard also gets me on the bus does it?

Yes. It gives you:
rail travel Gillingham - Zone 6 boundary stations (I think these are Slade Green, Barnehurst, Crayford, St Mary Cray and Knockholt)
rail travel throughout Zones 5 & 6
tram travel throughout London Tramlink
and bus travel throughout London Buses (this extends a little beyond the Zones).

It costs £59.50 weekly, £228.50 monthly, or £2380 annually.

John

 

[glynn80]

I have just spoken with Southeastern about this issue and can confirm the problem has been rectified and the fares uploaded into the system today.

The fares should be appearing in TISs within the next 3-5 days for purchase.

 

[John @ home]

Well done!

John

 

[Hawkeye448]

The £77.50's coming back?

Cheers for all your help Glynn. Yet this is the response I received 3 hours before your post today....


I am sorry to note that you are no longer able to purchase your ticket from Gillingham to Croydon. As you now need to purchase a more expensive travelcard ticket, I can understand your disappointment about this, and apologise for any problems it causes you. However, I regret to say that this ticket is no longer available on our systems, so it will be necessary for you to purchase a travelcard for your journey.

 

[glynn80]

The £77.50's coming back?

Cheers for all your help Glynn. Yet this is the response I received 3 hours before your post today....

I am sorry to note that you are no longer able to purchase your ticket from Gillingham to Croydon. As you now need to purchase a more expensive travelcard ticket, I can understand your disappointment about this, and apologise for any problems it causes you. However, I regret to say that this ticket is no longer available on our systems, so it will be necessary for you to purchase a travelcard for your journey.

I suspect you have fallen foul of the TOCs terrible illinformed customer service agents.

I spoke with senior figures at Southeastern who confirmed they were already aware of the problem and that the fares had already been reloaded onto the system earlier in the day and would be in TISs in 3 to 5 days further.

If you have any further issues with purchasing this ticket, of course post on here and I'll try and chase the issue further if it hasn't been resolved.

 

[Hawkeye448]

Your a gent and a scholar sir. No doubt.

More grateful than you know.

 

[Hawkeye448]

Well the tickets been back for some weeks now, ive been paid back the overspend (albeit in train vouchers. Bit cheeky but dont really matter I suppose). Thanks again.

Just a curiosity. A week after its return, one Tuesday, the weekly ticket no longer opened the barriers at Victoria and hasnt for some 5 weeks now. Any idea what thats all about?