Hertfordshire - what happened?

[A0]

But you could develop quality express bus services that could take advantage of the A414, ideally with bus priority to skip the jams. For example, see the Qliner network in the north of the Netherlands, where express buses on motorways fill in the gaps in the railway network. It wouldn't be "commercial", of course, but a hell of lot cheaper than rail (re-)openings.

Take a look at a map - the A 414 doesn't serve any town centre once it's left Hertford - it doesn't touch WGC, skirts Hatfield by Oldings Corner (Tescos), effectively road-shares with the A1 to the Galleria / University turning, runs through uninhabited areas, touches the outer perimeter of Colney Heath and London Colney and then joins the old M10 until it gets to Hemel.

So where's the custom going to come from? Great if you want to travel fast from Hertford - Hatfield Tesco - Hemel Hempstead, which I reckon might be about 5 people.

The slowest part of most of these journeys is getting into / out of the relevant town centres. St Albans is probably the worst of all of them and over the last 30 years various things have been tried, including the 'one way system', various anti-car measures etc etc yet still the congestion is there.

In the case of WGC or Hatfield, you've got single carriageway roads feeding the town centres, so short of tearing up those roads and massively increasing the size of the junctions you've got nowhere to put 'bus lanes' or other such "priority" measures.

Perhaps it's time to respond to demand rather than inhibit supply?

 

[Wirewiper]

I disagree - the issue was even under NBC days Herts was never considered a 'single' entity - you had 3 operators based in the county all doing their own things London Country, United Counties, Eastern National and, for Royston at least Eastern Counties / Cambus.

There isn't the demand for these 'cross county' links - people from Bishops Stortford have no interest in Watford or vice versa. Unlike Beds for example where people do travel between Luton and Bedford.

If anything the root cause of the problems was the formation by Morrison of the LTPB with responsibility for bus services up to 30 miles out of London way back in the 1930s. It meant the basic links in Herts were dictated by LT - and most of those exist to this day. And many areas were poorly served as a result.

Where did I say anything about a cross-county link from Bishops Stortford to Watford? Although the 724 provides a similar link from Harlow which isn't a million miles from Bishops Stortford. There are plenty of people doing shorter east-west hops across the county. I was talking about a coherent network overall.

I also take issue with your comment about NBC days, as the 1970s and 1980s progressed there was considerable blurring of the boundaries between LCBS and UCOC operations, including a modicum of joint working.

 

[radamfi]

Take a look at a map - the A 414 doesn't serve any town centre once it's left Hertford - it doesn't touch WGC, skirts Hatfield by Oldings Corner (Tescos), effectively road-shares with the A1 to the Galleria / University turning, runs through uninhabited areas, touches the outer perimeter of Colney Heath and London Colney and then joins the old M10 until it gets to Hemel.

So where's the custom going to come from? Great if you want to travel fast from Hertford - Hatfield Tesco - Hemel Hempstead, which I reckon might be about 5 people.

The slowest part of most of these journeys is getting into / out of the relevant town centres. St Albans is probably the worst of all of them and over the last 30 years various things have been tried, including the 'one way system', various anti-car measures etc etc yet still the congestion is there.

In the case of WGC or Hatfield, you've got single carriageway roads feeding the town centres, so short of tearing up those roads and massively increasing the size of the junctions you've got nowhere to put 'bus lanes' or other such "priority" measures.

Perhaps it's time to respond to demand rather than inhibit supply?

Clearly I was advocating using the A414 to get between the towns quickly and ideally you would be connecting the town centres and railway stations. There are a lot of people driving between neighbouring towns so that is certainly something that needs addressing. Radical restructuring of road layouts may be necessary to accommodate a proper fast bus/BRT system. Controversial? Yes. Difficult? Yes.

 

[A0]

Clearly I was advocating using the A414 to get between the towns quickly and ideally you would be connecting the town centres and railway stations. There are a lot of people driving between neighbouring towns so that is certainly something that needs addressing. Radical restructuring of road layouts may be necessary to accommodate a proper fast bus/BRT system. Controversial? Yes. Difficult? Yes.

There's the point - using the A414 wouldn't be quicker. Take a journey between Hatfield and St Albans as a case in point.

If you're heading from town centre to town centre there's virtually nothing in it time wise - using Googlemaps as an example:

The quickest road route (by car, so no stops) is 15 mins via Hatfield Garden Village and Sandpit Lane in St Albans.

The next quickest is effectively the route most of the buses take i.e. Galleria, Oaklands, Smallford at 19 mins.

Your also looking at 19 mins to go along the A414 from Hatfield and up London Road in St Albans (the most logical way if you're using the A414) - it's also a 2 mile longer journey.

The 724 takes 28 mins to cover the journey using the Galleria, Oaklands, Smallford route with limited stops, so less than 10 mins slower than driving it.

You're not going to magically get buses to hit the car journey time because of the need to stop regularly. Slowing down cars to make them less attractive has also failed.

At best you'd shave 5 mins off the 724's journey time because a bus accelerates more slowly than a car and has lower speed limits - so sorry, but you're suggesting spending squilliions to shave 5 mins off a journey.

 

[A0]

I also take issue with your comment about NBC days, as the 1970s and 1980s progressed there was considerable blurring of the boundaries between LCBS and UCOC operations, including a modicum of joint working.

You can take issue with it all you like - but you're misguided if you think there was a 'blurring' of boundaries.

There was a change of operator of a number of rural services in the Hitchin / Luton area in the 70s but that was nothing to do with UCOC and LCBS co-operating and everything to do with changes to the level of subsidies which Beds CC was prepared to pay - and UCOC had lower operating costs that LCBS did. Ultimately that was why LCBS's Luton depot closed.

IIRC there were only 2 routes which were jointly run - the 'orbital' 750/751 from Hemel - Waltham X and the 44 Stevenage - Luton, which in itself hadn't really been an NBC route as such, instead it was one of the odd 'independent' routes which landed with the NBC operators when the independent closed down - I don't think it was Court Line in that case.

In every other respect they were 'segregated' - in Hitchin the LCBS services all terminated at St Mary's Square whereas all the UCOC ones terminated at Bancroft or Hermitage Road.

UCOC didn't operate into Stevenage from Biggleswade for example - that was run by an independent.

It was only post deregulation and with privatisation did you see UCOC operating into Stevenage regularly.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

But you could develop quality express bus services that could take advantage of the A414, ideally with bus priority to skip the jams. For example, see the Qliner network in the north of the Netherlands, where express buses on motorways fill in the gaps in the railway network. It wouldn't be "commercial", of course, but a hell of lot cheaper than rail (re-)openings.

lol I like that idea... an express bus service utilising the A414 to avoid the jams... lets look at that shall we... Hemel- St Albans- WGC- Hertford..

well between Hemel and St Albans the A414 runs up to j8/7 of the M1 and then follows the old M10 to south of St Albans... have you ever travelled that stretch of the M1 either at 8am or 5-7pm? you want to avoid jams? you don't go on the A414 between those 2 towns to avoid jams. Then of course you have now delivered your bus about 3 miles south of St Albans and you have to struggle into town along all those congested roads you wanted to avoid so losing any time you actually managed to save.. and then some more...

of course between St Albans and Hertford there is an express bus service utilising the A414.. it's called the Green Line 724... if there's such a huge demand for east-west express bus services in Hertfordshire why does the 724 only run hrly? could it be that there just isn't the demand?

I note that as usual you quote the nirvana that is the Netherlands.... have you ever read Buses magazine? Andrew Braddock, that great proponent of all things continental has had some pretty scathing things to say about bus provision in Holland... no bus priority, typical headways of 30 or 60 minutes despite buses being rammed full, timetables that are a work of fiction because the buses have to deal with the general traffic, with the added bonus of swarms of cyclist {who have absolute priority in Holland}, no penetration into housing estates, etc etc..

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It was only post deregulation and with privatisation did you see UCOC operating into Stevenage regularly.

pedant alert, even after deregulation UCOC didn't operate into Stevenage.... by then it's Luton and Hitchin depots were part of the new Luton & District

 

[A0]

pedant alert, even after deregulation UCOC didn't operate into Stevenage.... by then it's Luton and Hitchin depots were part of the new Luton & District

Sorry to correct you - but they did. They picked up the HCC contract for the 385 to Aston and also ran the Biggleswade - Stevenage service after Charles Cook stopped. Both from their Biggleswade depot.

Though not Stevenage they also picked up the 314 from Hitchin - WGC and 88 Hitchin - Luton via the villages from LCBS and L&D respectively.

That said - I like your previous post...

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Sorry to correct you - but they did. They picked up the HCC contract for the 385 to Aston and also ran the Biggleswade - Stevenage service after Charles Cook stopped. Both from their Biggleswade depot.

Though not Stevenage they also picked up the 314 from Hitchin - WGC and 88 Hitchin - Luton via the villages from LCBS and L&D respectively.

That said - I like your previous post...

I'm always happy to be corrected... I remember the 88 and 314, but didn't remember the other routes. IIRC they did, for a time, open an outstation near Hitchin to operate them...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm always happy to be corrected... I remember the 88 and 314, but didn't remember the other routes. IIRC they did, for a time, open an outstation near Hitchin to operate them...

Can’t talk about the similarities of Welwyn to Den Haag....but I seem to recall an outbase somewhere like Shefford?

 

[radamfi]

of course between St Albans and Hertford there is an express bus service utilising the A414.. it's called the Green Line 724... if there's such a huge demand for east-west express bus services in Hertfordshire why does the 724 only run hrly? could it be that there just isn't the demand?

There is certainly a high demand for east-west transport, but they use the car rather than the 724 or other bus services.

I note that as usual you quote the nirvana that is the Netherlands.... have you ever read Buses magazine? Andrew Braddock, that great proponent of all things continental has had some pretty scathing things to say about bus provision in Holland... no bus priority, typical headways of 30 or 60 minutes despite buses being rammed full, timetables that are a work of fiction because the buses have to deal with the general traffic, with the added bonus of swarms of cyclist {who have absolute priority in Holland}, no penetration into housing estates, etc etc..

I don't think anywhere in the world can claim to have bus priority everywhere that traffic jams exist, but are there many places that have more bus priority than the Netherlands? I would certainly be interested in visiting such places. Maybe the BRT systems in South American cities. Mr Braddock is clearly inaccurate if he claims there is "no bus priority". In the three main cities there are comprehensive metro/tram/light rail services where buses often take advantage of the same rights of way that trams do and there are dedicated busways in the suburbs, such as the Haarlem to Schiphol Zuidtangent and Rotterdam to Zoetermeer "ZoRo". Motorways often have bus lanes, bus only junctions or allow buses to overtake stationary traffic on the hard shoulder. The next biggest cities, Utrecht, Eindhoven, Arnhem, Almere and Groningen all have decent busways or bus priority on major corridors, with virtually the entire Almere network being busway as it is a new town. In many other places there are often short bits of bus lane just before traffic lights, which is better than where it ends just before the junction, often combined with bus only signals. Traffic lights also change to green when buses approach where transponders are provided.

It makes complete sense to provide for cyclists to have priority (although "absolute priority" is an exaggeration) as over 34% of journeys under 7.5 km are by bike, compared to 2% for bus/tram/metro

http://www.fietsberaad.nl/library/repository/bestanden/CyclingintheNetherlands2009.pdf (page 10) (2007)

Most people will use the bike rather than the bus when the bike is safe, quicker and cheaper. The Dutch are less likely than the British to run wiggly bus routes that take ages because they make lengthy diversions into housing estates, partly to make those areas safer for cycling, but they do exist. Cycling is also why buses often don't go into village centres as bike racks are often provided at the edge of the village so that people on the bus have a quicker journey.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

There is certainly a high demand for east-west transport, but they use the car rather than the 724 or other bus services.

Perhaps because, by their nature, the fast dual carriageways you advocate using for express buses generally skirt round the edges of the towns? therefore any bus service will by definition have to struggle along 2 or 3 miles of town road to achieve their aim... a car driver going from Hemel to Hertford will drive directly, whereas by the nature of public transport buses will have to divert via St Albans, Hatfield, etc to ensure that there are enough passengers to make any service viable... there just isn't the demand for Hemel non-stop to Hertford, St Albans non-stop Hertford etc!

Mr Braddock is clearly inaccurate if he claims there is *no bus priority*.

That's a laughable suggestion, that Andrew Braddock, being pro continental practice, would misrepresent the true situation therefore blowing his own theories out of the water!

The Dutch are less likely than the British to run wiggly bus routes that take ages because they make lengthy diversions into housing estates, partly to make those areas safer for cycling, but they do exist.

but of course the housing estates are where people want to go to/ from... why on earth would you run a bus service to somewhere "near" where people want to go? who on earth would want to use them? Of course it's a wonderful answer you've got there.... in towns in the UK you are usually no further than a couple of hundred yards from a bus stop.... and people aren't prepared to walk to the stop to take advantage of the service offered... so why in hell would they walk double or even triple the distance?

 

[radamfi]

That's a laughable suggestion, that Andrew Braddock, being pro continental practice, would misrepresent the true situation therefore blowing his own theories out of the water!

I'm afraid I haven't read Buses for many years so I'm unfamiliar with that contributor. I can't see what would be gained from misrepresentation but it certainly sounds like he isn't in favour of mass cycling. That's fairly common amongst bus enthusiasts as increased cycling inevitably impacts on the number of people using local buses.

but of course the housing estates are where people want to go to/ from... why on earth would you run a bus service to somewhere "near" where people want to go? who on earth would want to use them? Of course it's a wonderful answer you've got there.... in towns in the UK you are usually no further than a couple of hundred yards from a bus stop.... and people aren't prepared to walk to the stop to take advantage of the service offered... so why in hell would they walk double or even triple the distance?

If the housing estate is at the end of the route then there is no harm in going there, but otherwise through passengers are inconvenienced by the extended journey time. In the US, bus stops are often very close together, maybe as close as 100 metres at times, as the emphasis is on making accessibility as good as possible for people who find walking difficult. Wider spacing, maybe 400 to 500 metres is more common in mainland Europe, so that journeys are as fast as possible. The UK is somewhere in the middle of that range. Even in London it can be quite far to walk to the bus stop.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I'm afraid I haven't read Buses for many years so I'm unfamiliar with that contributor. I can't see what would be gained from misrepresentation but it certainly sounds like he isn't in favour of mass cycling. That's fairly common amongst bus enthusiasts as increased cycling inevitably impacts on the number of people using local buses.



If the housing estate is at the end of the route then there is no harm in going there, but otherwise through passengers are inconvenienced by the extended journey time. In the US, bus stops are often very close together, maybe as close as 100 metres at times, as the emphasis is on making accessibility as good as possible for people who find walking difficult. Wider spacing, maybe 400 to 500 metres is more common in mainland Europe, so that journeys are as fast as possible. The UK is somewhere in the middle of that range. Even in London it can be quite far to walk to the bus stop.

at the end of the day continental practice was tried in the 60's and early 70's... perhaps you might like to research what the results of those experiments had on the British bus industry...

 

[CMS]

there is little co-ordination of services which would enable a more coherent network to be created.

I suppose that it the crux of my argument. I don't think we need an hourly Stansted-Aylesbury via St Albans by any stretch of the imagination. What I have observed is that there is no co-ordinated 'network' feel, despite the work of Intalink and a feeling that if you don't live bang on an Arriva trunk route or want to go where they go - you'll probably have an unattractive, unreliable bus link or will have to get your railcard out.

I was surprised when living in Sittingbourne, Kent, how few people from there worked, shopped or had any interest in Maidstone, the county town not many miles away and with a good connecting road. No wonder the only public transport between the two, a bus route, was hardly frequent nor with evening or Sunday service, and I don't think much has changed now, The Medway Towns, on the other hand...

One of the first reflections I had was that - it's strange how Kent has such a good bus network, despite having towns further apart and some notoriously "difficult" or congested roads, but I realise that the train service works generally well with buses (they don't particularly overlap/compete) and each major operator has their own geographical patch so can have a strategy to boost a network rather than scrape demand from another route/protect their own. Another thing Kent does have going for it is some very strong bus flows - Uni of Kent routes in Canterbury, commuter traffic to stations in West Kent, bus usage having occasional summer tourism peaks, which aren't really seen in Hertfordshire.

Take a look at a map - the A 414 doesn't serve any town centre once it's left Hertford

Clearly I was advocating using the A414 to get between the towns quickly and ideally you would be connecting the town centres and railway stations.

The idea is absurd. It's a total no-go, it isn't even the busiest bus corridor in Hertfordshire, which is why I'm surprised it even made it into the HCC Transport Plan. The first quote says it all - no town centres!

I think there would be cause to beef up the Hatfield-St Albans corridor with some bus priority opportunities and someone needs to figure out how buses can get in and out of St Albans quicker but I'm against this BRT idea.

of course between St Albans and Hertford there is an express bus service utilising the A414.. it's called the Green Line 724... if there's such a huge demand for east-west express bus services in Hertfordshire why does the 724 only run hrly? could it be that there just isn't the demand?

Again, may I stress I'm against the HCC BRT idea but the 724 is not really much of an express service, granted it can fly in and out of the Heathrow-Uxbridge stretch, Hatfield and Ware quicker than other routes, but really it's lots of local links bunched together and if you happen to get on a 321 which is delayed, it will often overtake an on-time 724. Plus for Hatfield <> Hertford, the route is very circuitous.

I accept that the demand for east-west journeys may not be as much as I initially thought given what has been said here (being more familiar with W Herts, where people do want to go Hemel to St Albans, Borehamwood to Watford, St Albans to Hatfield, Tring to Aylesbury etc but I would say that the length of 724, it's poor punctuality and odd start/end times due to a Harlow base quash potential demand. If these points were addressed, there could be a resurgence I believe.

I note that as usual you quote the nirvana that is the Netherlands.... have you ever read Buses magazine? Andrew Braddock, that great proponent of all things continental has had some pretty scathing things to say about bus provision in Holland... no bus priority, typical headways of 30 or 60 minutes despite buses being rammed full, timetables that are a work of fiction because the buses have to deal with the general traffic, with the added bonus of swarms of cyclist {who have absolute priority in Holland}, no penetration into housing estates, etc etc..

I accept that some things about the NL bus network are very weird to us Brits (Schiphol Nord bus station, lower frequency to fill the bus, motorway bus routes) but I have never experienced the above, there is very good multi-modal integration and even cross-border routes put some of our local routes to shame. With regards to housing estates, I think that it's a British thing to go through them, in France and Belgium it doesn't really happen so no surprise really. Look at the bus network of Le Havre, France for example, if it were in Britain it'd look very different but it runs well and buses are impressively full (but as you can board from any door, faredodging is an issue).

In all of these comments, we can agree on what the problems are (lack of demand, cuts, poor network co-ordination between operators) but I cannot think of many solutions other than rationalising some routes, beefing up the bus corridors which are doing well and AQP/better branding? Any other thoughts?

 

[A0]

I think there would be cause to beef up the Hatfield-St Albans corridor with some bus priority opportunities and someone needs to figure out how buses can get in and out of St Albans quicker but I'm against this BRT idea.

Again, may I stress I'm against the HCC BRT idea but the 724 is not really much of an express service, granted it can fly in and out of the Heathrow-Uxbridge stretch, Hatfield and Ware quicker than other routes, but really it's lots of local links bunched together and if you happen to get on a 321 which is delayed, it will often overtake an on-time 724. Plus for Hatfield <> Hertford, the route is very circuitous.

I accept that the demand for east-west journeys may not be as much as I initially thought given what has been said here (being more familiar with W Herts, where people do want to go Hemel to St Albans, Borehamwood to Watford, St Albans to Hatfield, Tring to Aylesbury etc but I would say that the length of 724, it's poor punctuality and odd start/end times due to a Harlow base quash potential demand. If these points were addressed, there could be a resurgence I believe.

St Albans is problematic - narrowish roads, the relentless anti-car measures pushed by both St Albans and HCC haven't succeeded in reducing the number of people driving into / out of St Albans. And given the councils will only prescribe more of the same, they'll just make matters worse and the inherent congestion it causes will slow the buses down even more. Which is why I keep saying it, stop trying to be anti-car and work on providing more and better road capacity for all. The road network in St Albans is as old as the city is - that's why it's always going to be difficult.

The 724's basic route is unchanged over very many years - originally it was Romford - High Wycombe, but the basic Ware > Hertford > WGC > Hatfield > St Albans > Watford bit is essentially the same as it was when launched in the 1960s.

The journey time St Albans - Hatfield isn't uncompetitive as my post pointed out - even if you gave buses empty roads you'd only be shaving 5 mins off the journey time because buses accelerate more slowly and take longer to slow down than cars - that's worth 5 mins on a journey the length of Hatfield - St Albans.

The 724 between Hatfield and Hertford isn't "circuitous" - it serves WGC which has two key traffic flows - the QE2 hospital and the town centre. In fact they've tidied up the route a bit in recent years by sending it out of WGC from Mundells onto Herns Way / Herns Lane and then the B1000 to Hertford, rather than via Herns Way, Panshanger shops and then the B195 to Cole Green, Birch Green and Hertingfordbury - which I suspect saved them a good 10 minutes.

The 724 is one of the survivors - back in LCBS days they withdrew it for a couple of years and ran it simply as the 524 between Harlow and Watford before returning it to Heathrow - that it's still running essentially as it was back in 1986 tells you it's a commercially sound route which gives passengers a service they want.

 

[CMS]

St Albans is problematic - narrowish roads, the relentless anti-car measures pushed by both St Albans and HCC haven't succeeded in reducing the number of people driving into / out of St Albans. And given the councils will only prescribe more of the same, they'll just make matters worse and the inherent congestion it causes will slow the buses down even more. Which is why I keep saying it, stop trying to be anti-car and work on providing more and better road capacity for all. The road network in St Albans is as old as the city is - that's why it's always going to be difficult.

Very good point. It will always be a pinch point for now, which is a shame because it takes a toll on reliability. I note that the brief revision of the 724 routeing to speed it up/avoid congestion didn't last long. I think the 601 and 602's routeings in St Albans city centre aren't particularly great though - how can it take 21 mins off peak on the 601 from Abbey to City and nobody from London Colney uses the 602 to get to St Albans Station now that the 84 goes there, so it ought to run straight up London Road (or at least along the quicker Marlborough Road).

The 724 between Hatfield and Hertford isn't "circuitous" - it serves WGC which has two key traffic flows - the QE2 hospital and the town centre. In fact they've tidied up the route a bit in recent years by sending it out of WGC from Mundells onto Herns Way / Herns Lane and then the B1000 to Hertford, rather than via Herns Way, Panshanger shops and then the B195 to Cole Green, Birch Green and Hertingfordbury - which I suspect saved them a good 10 minutes.

The 724 is one of the survivors - back in LCBS days they withdrew it for a couple of years and ran it simply as the 524 between Harlow and Watford before returning it to Heathrow - that it's still running essentially as it was back in 1986 tells you it's a commercially sound route which gives passengers a service they want.

I do think it is circuitous, the 301/653 provide enough buses from Hatfield to QE2 and Hertford has the County, so I'm not too sure why it goes that way. In every other town it literally goes in and out, apart from WGC. Also, only once have I seen anyone board along Bessemer Road. But, yes you must have a point. I, perhaps wrongly assumed, that it only continues in its present form because of HCC and BAA Heathrow funding, which is how Harlow affords the dead running. I remember once reading somewhere that HCC only wanted to fund evenings/Sundays as far as Watford Junction.

 

[A0]

Very good point. It will always be a pinch point for now, which is a shame because it takes a toll on reliability. I note that the brief revision of the 724 routeing to speed it up/avoid congestion didn't last long. I think the 601 and 602's routeings in St Albans city centre aren't particularly great though - how can it take 21 mins off peak on the 601 from Abbey to City and nobody from London Colney uses the 602 to get to St Albans Station now that the 84 goes there, so it ought to run straight up London Road (or at least along the quicker Marlborough Road).


I do think it is circuitous, the 301/653 provide enough buses from Hatfield to QE2 and Hertford has the County, so I'm not too sure why it goes that way. In every other town it literally goes in and out, apart from WGC. Also, only once have I seen anyone board along Bessemer Road. But, yes you must have a point. I, perhaps wrongly assumed, that it only continues in its present form because of HCC and BAA Heathrow funding, which is how Harlow affords the dead running. I remember once reading somewhere that HCC only wanted to fund evenings/Sundays as far as Watford Junction.

Not sure which timetable you're looking at? Uno's website has it as 14 mins including a 2 min stop at St Peter's Street.

 

[CMS]

Not sure which timetable you're looking at? Uno's website has it as 14 mins including a 2 min stop at St Peter's Street.

That’s in the other direction, where the 655 routeing has been maintained. But buses coming from Borehamwood set down at the alighting point in St Paters Street, go up to the roundabout do a U-turn, pick up at Stop 1 and proceed to City Station via Victoria Street. Although I understand that it’s easier for Uno if all of their Hatfield-bound buses depart from the same stop but the time penalty and going through traffic twice (on the 601 and 602) is killer at peak times, particularly on market days and school times.

 

[A0]

That’s in the other direction, where the 655 routeing has been maintained. But buses coming from Borehamwood set down at the alighting point in St Paters Street, go up to the roundabout do a U-turn, pick up at Stop 1 and proceed to City Station via Victoria Street. Although I understand that it’s easier for Uno if all of their Hatfield-bound buses depart from the same stop but the time penalty and going through traffic twice (on the 601 and 602) is killer at peak times, particularly on market days and school times.

If you look at the timetable it reckons 7 mins from the drop off at stop 14 to the pick up at stop 1 - now whilst I'm sure traffic on St Peter's Street isn't great there's no way it takes that long - so do they make a driver change or rest break there? 5 mins would be sufficient for a driver swap.

I suspect trying to be on one stop towards Hatfield also makes sense as the 300/301 also stop on that side en route to Hatfield as well, in fact most station bound buses stop on the southbound side of St Peter's St nowadays - looks like the 724 is the only one which doesn't.

 

[PeterC]

SNIP

The 724's basic route is unchanged over very many years - originally it was Romford - High Wycombe, but the basic Ware > Hertford > WGC > Hatfield > St Albans > Watford bit is essentially the same as it was when launched in the 1960s.

The journey time St Albans - Hatfield isn't uncompetitive as my post pointed out - even if you gave buses empty roads you'd only be shaving 5 mins off the journey time because buses accelerate more slowly and take longer to slow down than cars - that's worth 5 mins on a journey the length of Hatfield - St Albans.

EDIT
I must confess to a sentimental attachment to this route as I was passenger number 3 on the first ever journey.

The 724 between Hatfield and Hertford isn't "circuitous" - it serves WGC which has two key traffic flows - the QE2 hospital and the town centre. In fact they've tidied up the route a bit in recent years by sending it out of WGC from Mundells onto Herns Way / Herns Lane and then the B1000 to Hertford, rather than via Herns Way, Panshanger shops and then the B195 to Cole Green, Birch Green and Hertingfordbury - which I suspect saved them a good 10 minutes.

The 724 is one of the survivors - back in LCBS days they withdrew it for a couple of years and ran it simply as the 524 between Harlow and Watford before returning it to Heathrow - that it's still running essentially as it was back in 1986 tells you it's a commercially sound route which gives passengers a service they want.

One problem with the 724 is that it was designed to be worked from a depot at each end of the route (originally Romford and High Wycombe). As much as I am in favour of night buses does the 03:15 from Harlow carry much traffic or is it effectively ECS as they say on the railways?

Additional stops have also crept in since the route started although I hadn't realised that they have now bypassed Stanstead Abbots and Cole Green until checking the timetable. Even so Hertford to Hatfield is, if my arithmetic is correct, 43 minutes, compared with 26 minutes in 1970. (Monday to Friday between peaks)

EDIT
I must confess to a sentimental attachment to this route as I did the whole run from Romford to Wycombe on the first ever journey.

 

[A0]

One problem with the 724 is that it was designed to be worked from a depot at each end of the route (originally Romford and High Wycombe). As much as I am in favour of night buses does the 03:15 from Harlow carry much traffic or is it effectively ECS as they say on the railways?

Additional stops have also crept in since the route started although I hadn't realised that they have now bypassed Stanstead Abbots and Cole Green until checking the timetable. Even so Hertford to Hatfield is, if my arithmetic is correct, 43 minutes, compared with 26 minutes in 1970. (Monday to Friday between peaks)

EDIT
I must confess to a sentimental attachment to this route as I did the whole run from Romford to Wycombe on the first ever journey.

I'm surprised it's slowed down that much in the intervening 40 years. RFs and RCLs weren't exactly quick buses by modern standards and whilst the roads are undeniably busier, it's still alot to lose.

I know the routing through WGC changed in the early 80s - from Hatfield it *used* to go straight up Chequers then onto Parkway to get to the town centre and I believe went out of WGC via Bridge Road, Heronswood Road and onto Cole Green Lane at Great Gannett. Now the problem with that is the QE2 wasn't served, so it has had a couple of other routes through WGC. But in those days the Cole Green / Letty Green bypass didn't exist - that was built in the early 90s - so it was single carriageway until you got to Hertford.

I think all the Green Line routes in those days were operated by 2 depots with one at each end - not least caused by the fact most of the routes went through London - it was only in the late 70s that started to change.

 

[jon0844]

The Parkhouse Court bus station is a total mess. Vandalism, people using it as a car park, people sleeping rough and other dodgy things.. but the roads there aren't adopted and HCC seems totally disinterested.

Cars now race through the lights (on red) and know nothing will happen. Even the police seem to cut through, so it seems accepted that it's a free-for-all.

If and when the roads are adopted, I am sure a few people will get a nasty shock when parking tickets are dished out, but for now the whole area is an eyesore. The crime rate on the nearby flats seems particularly high too.

Sadly it's where the Wetherspoons is, which is a very nice pub, and Aldi, plus a great barbershop and nursery. Nevertheless, it's not a nice place to walk around late at night - or even in the daytime when you have the druggies and drunks staggering around.

 

[causton]

One problem with the 724 is that it was designed to be worked from a depot at each end of the route (originally Romford and High Wycombe). As much as I am in favour of night buses does the 03:15 from Harlow carry much traffic or is it effectively ECS as they say on the railways?

I used to get the first one west Hatfield - Watford, and the last one east Watford - Hatfield, as part of shift work (not on the same day ) and they were both reasonably loaded, well into double digits with people going to various places of work (always supermarket workers, a couple of people getting off at Smallford and North Watford for the industrial areas etc!)

 

[CMS]

If you look at the timetable it reckons 7 mins from the drop off at stop 14 to the pick up at stop 1 - now whilst I'm sure traffic on St Peter's Street isn't great there's no way it takes that long - so do they make a driver change or rest break there? 5 mins would be sufficient for a driver swap.

I suspect trying to be on one stop towards Hatfield also makes sense as the 300/301 also stop on that side en route to Hatfield as well, in fact most station bound buses stop on the southbound side of St Peter's St nowadays - looks like the 724 is the only one which doesn't.

The strange thing is no, there aren't any changeovers here, it is so the 30 min headways are maintained with St Albans terminators (which only have 2 mins turnaround, and only 4 mins at WGC). From experience, the 601 is not great for punctuality and was better off-peak at least as the 655. I don't think it would cause any harm if buses departed from both sides of the road, people managed it for the former 621, 655 and current 724.

One problem with the 724 is that it was designed to be worked from a depot at each end of the route (originally Romford and High Wycombe). As much as I am in favour of night buses does the 03:15 from Harlow carry much traffic or is it effectively ECS as they say on the railways?

Additional stops have also crept in since the route started although I hadn't realised that they have now bypassed Stanstead Abbots and Cole Green until checking the timetable. Even so Hertford to Hatfield is, if my arithmetic is correct, 43 minutes, compared with 26 minutes in 1970. (Monday to Friday between peaks)

Yes I agree with the previous comment, there seems to be a few shift workers (notably UH students) going from Hatfield to St Albans, I think a good dozen or so worked as online shoppers at the St Albans/N Watford supermarkets judging by the uniforms. I didn't realise the 70s timings were so good. The 724 is no express at present.

Sadly it's where the Wetherspoons is, which is a very nice pub, and Aldi, plus a great barbershop and nursery. Nevertheless, it's not a nice place to walk around late at night - or even in the daytime when you have the druggies and drunks staggering around.

That's a shame, what a waste of money! The police station within sight of it though which makes it even more bizarre. Perhaps if the 300/301 became some sort of bus rapid transit to align with the HCC plan instead of the A414 idea, it could be revitalised?

Actually, upon second thought, it wouldn't work, without the district centre/superhospital plan, there is no need at present for any bus to go there.

 

[Busaholic]

I think all the Green Line routes in those days were operated by 2 depots with one at each end - not least caused by the fact most of the routes went through London - it was only in the late 70s that started to change.

That was certainly true of all the cross-London routes, and the orbital 725 as well. The main exceptions were the Essex routes into Aldgate and the oddity known as the (original) 726 to Whipsnade Zoo from East London! It was true of some of these routes (if not all) that a percentage of coaches spent nights at the 'wrong' end of the route.

 

[causton]

5 mins would be sufficient for a driver swap.

0 minutes is sufficient for a driver swap as far as Uno are concerned - certainly no time given at de Havilland for the changeovers. One of the main problems travelling from St Albans to Hatfield is every time I manage to get a driver change at the de Havilland Campus, which is just round the corner from the Galleria, where I want to get off the bus, but I have to wait 5 minutes while they find the new driver, change over, set up the desk, chair, wheel, mirrors... etc...!

 

[jon0844]

0 minutes is sufficient for a driver swap as far as Uno are concerned - certainly no time given at de Havilland for the changeovers. One of the main problems travelling from St Albans to Hatfield is every time I manage to get a driver change at the de Havilland Campus, which is just round the corner from the Galleria, where I want to get off the bus, but I have to wait 5 minutes while they find the new driver, change over, set up the desk, chair, wheel, mirrors... etc...!

And many drivers like to have a chat too.

 

[A0]

The Parkhouse Court bus station is a total mess. Vandalism, people using it as a car park, people sleeping rough and other dodgy things.. but the roads there aren't adopted and HCC seems totally disinterested.

Cars now race through the lights (on red) and know nothing will happen. Even the police seem to cut through, so it seems accepted that it's a free-for-all.

If and when the roads are adopted, I am sure a few people will get a nasty shock when parking tickets are dished out, but for now the whole area is an eyesore. The crime rate on the nearby flats seems particularly high too.

Sadly it's where the Wetherspoons is, which is a very nice pub, and Aldi, plus a great barbershop and nursery. Nevertheless, it's not a nice place to walk around late at night - or even in the daytime when you have the druggies and drunks staggering around.

Who'd have thought - putting a bus station where it doesn't really serve a purpose means it doesn't get used for its intended purpose and becomes run down and used inappropriately. The planners need only have looked at Milton Keynes to see how that one turns out.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Who'd have thought - putting a bus station where it doesn't really serve a purpose means it doesn't get used for its intended purpose and becomes run down and used inappropriately. The planners need only have looked at Milton Keynes to see how that one turns out.

Milton Keynes' bus station had a very good use... it was Lenin's Mausoleum!