New DMU fleet FGW/TPX/Northern

[GospelOak117]

Hi does anyone know anything about when the bidder chosen to build the new DMU fleet is going to be announced. It was supposed to have been chosen between Bombardier UK, CSR and CAF by april and no word yet. Hyundai Rotem apparently pulled out after winning further orders from Iarnrod Eireann.

It would be good to see Bombardier win so that such a large order is given to UK production but on the other hand it would be good to get some DMU variance on the network as Turbostars are taking over! If CAF won I guess we would see something similar to NIR's 3000 class. Not sure I trust Chinese build quality, the CSR's would probably be as hated in 15 years as 142's are now as they start to fall to bits!!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Sorry to say it, but I absloutely hate CAF stuff, the only good units they built were the 332/333's with Siemens. To me they are far inferior than any Bombardier and Siemens stock.

I've spent a lot of time in Dublin and in Belfast and all we have is CAF and Rotem stock here and no Bombardier stuff and no Siemens stuff - always a treat to be back in the UK and some better rolling stock.

 

[GospelOak117]

yea i dont like the look of the CAF's or especially the Rotems in Ireland either. The turbostar/electrostar has surely become the new British standard carriage design. I love the Birmingham built Juniper/Coradia fleets though despite the teething troubles, such a shame Alsthom closed Birmingham, a 2-car Class 458 derived DMU would have been great Not a big Desiro fan I must admit.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I've been on the CAF and the Rotem stock. They appear to be cheaper than the Alstorm/Bombarider/Siemens trains we have here, don't know if they are or not, they just seem it. You don't get such a feeling of newness, like you do with the units we get here, even when they are new.

 

[WillPS]

Any news on this? Something must be going off behind the scenes to prevent the details going public...

 

[HSTfan!!!]

the problem with the turbostar concept, is I don't personally think it's all that suited to a lot of the work it covers. I'm not sure the carriage/door layout is good for cross country type trains, I must prefer a 175 over a 170 for example. Although I will be the first to admit loading times are quicker with the door position of the turbostar design

 

[daccer]

I think the order has been cancelled. When Adonis announced the electrification plamn I think it was also mentione that the dmu order was now cancelled. In its place is a cascade of emu's from TL leading to dmus being made available from local FGW services out of Paddington and this leading to further cacades which will end up with Northern getting some extra bits - this will be Pacers and Sprinters only - there are no plans for Northern to get any new-build units at all!!

 

[starrymarkb]

Yep - Turbos go West replaced by Crossrail/319s, and Sprinters go North

 

[Pumbaa]

Si - this is correct.

 

[poshbakerloo]

the problem with the turbostar concept, is I don't personally think it's all that suited to a lot of the work it covers. I'm not sure the carriage/door layout is good for cross country type trains, I must prefer a 175 over a 170 for example. Although I will be the first to admit loading times are quicker with the door position of the turbostar design

I agree soooo much!!! I'm fed up on being stuck on a 170 or 185 on a long journey and having people pushing past me all the time for the door, which lets a freeeezing cold (in the winter) blast of air onto me!

 

[The Snap]

Yep - Turbos go West replaced by Crossrail/319s, and Sprinters go North

So 319s are going to TPE to run which service…? Manchester Airport to Liverpool, and Manchester Airport to Glasgow? That's the only electric routes that TPE will run once electrification is complete, and 319s don't seem good enough to go all the way to Scotland from Manchester?

Plus, I hope they refurbish them when they come to TPE!!

 

[ukrob]

So 319s are going to TPE to run which service…? Manchester Airport to Liverpool, and Manchester Airport to Glasgow? That's the only electric routes that TPE will run once electrification is complete, and 319s don't seem good enough to go all the way to Scotland from Manchester?

Plus, I hope they refurbish them when they come to TPE!!

Liverpool - Manchester Airport is Northern, not TPE, and will have the 319s. TPE will get 350s cascaded from London Midland for the Manchester - Scotland services.

And yes, the 319s will be heavily refurbished, with air conditioning too.

 

[BlythPower]

Any ideas on what's going to replace London Midland's 350s. I'd had the impression they were aiming for a standard fleet of just 350s at one point. God forbid that any TOC shold have a fully compatible fleet of units... :-?

 

[Pumbaa]

I have a suspicion that they will add on the current ITT that's floating around for 30 x 3 or 4 car EMUS to replace the 323s for LM.

 

[WillPS]

So will First TPE's 185s be displaced? I assume it must be them as they'll still need the Turbostars for the Hull runs...

I think the elephant in the room here is all the 142s which were supposed to be displaced are now still going to run. Frankly, it's well past time the 120+ Pacers were replaced altogether. We're playing catch up as it is, but if we fall any further behind we're also going to struggle to replace the Sprinters when the time comes.

Electrification will release acceptable DMUs, but not at a rate which will match stock replacement and market growth needs. What's needed is a massive order of new DMUs, not seen since the Turbostars were brought in following privatisation.

 

[ukrob]

So will First TPE's 185s be displaced? I assume it must be them as they'll still need the Turbostars for the Hull runs...

No, TPE retain them for strengthening existing services.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Electrification will release acceptable DMUs, but not at a rate which will match stock replacement and market growth needs. What's needed is a massive order of new DMUs, not seen since the Turbostars were brought in following privatisation.

problem is the state of the government's debts who is going to fund a mass modernisation?

 

[PhilipW]

What's needed is a massive order of new DMUs, not seen since the Turbostars were brought in following privatisation.

I don't this is going to happen or ever will happen (Labour or Tory). More electrification releasing more DMUs seems to be the way forward. There are some relatively modest schemes which would release more DMUs.

Three examples, for instance (though I am sure people can think of more)
1) The three Thames Valley branches, releasing more Turbostars.
2) Oxenholme to Windermere, releasing Manchester-Windermere 185s.
3) Manchester-Leeds and Leeds-York releasing quite a large quantity of 185s.

If I was Minister of Transport, I would concentrate on building EMUs too, not DMUs.

 

[87015]

If I was Minister of Transport, I would concentrate on building EMUs too, not DMUs.

Thats what we should be doing, no doubt, but the problem is electrification + EMU is an expenditure double whammy to a near bust treasury. The scrapping of the 312s (and maybe even some 310s) - Mk2 stock remember - may seem a big mistake soon given they'd have been quite capable of working a few of the peak hour or out-of-the-way diagrams whilst saving the cost of a new EMU at over £1m/car on top of over £1m/mile for the wires...

 

[PhilipW]

There are two more schemes I could mention too.

1) Edinburgh-Glasgow electifrication which will relaese a lot of 170s/158s not all of which will be redeployed in Scotland. The Scottish Government is planning a new build of about 50 EMUs for the scheme. This is likely to go ahead irrespective of who wins the next election to Westminster.

2) The Midland Mainline electrification (if approved) will not need any new build as I suspect the ECML Class 91s and Mark IVs will be sent there when the new IEP arrives. That in turn will relaese many Meridians and HSTs for cascade elsewhere.

Sure, none of this will happen in the next year or two to relieve the DMU shortage now. But there is the prospect of many many DMUs being available in about 5 years time.

I have to say again that if I were Minister of Transport, that is what I would do. I suspect also that this is exactly what we will see when Lord Adonis releases his new Rolling Stock Plan in the autumn.

As a Postscript, I think it also the case that Manufacturers don't want to build DMUs any more. There would be UK-specific and not worth the hassle.

 

[A60K]

All UK stock is UK-specific - the loading gauge sees to that, rather than diesel power equipment. There is a suprising amount of the European network that is not electrified - only the Swiss have managed a fully electrified network.

Manufacturers will build anything for a reasonable price providing a reasonable number are ordered. What's not good for prices is trying to 'knife-and-fork' small batches at a time.

I think it's more to do with the worry about residual values if too much diesel stock is built as an electrification programme gets underway. Still, we can always sell any surplus DMUs to Iran!

 

[PhilipW]

. Still, we can always sell any surplus DMUs to Iran!

.. even Iran is now embarking on a policy of Electrification. We don't want to fall behind them !

 

[starrymarkb]

All UK stock is UK-specific - the loading gauge sees to that, rather than diesel power equipment. There is a suprising amount of the European network that is not electrified - only the Swiss have managed a fully electrified network.

Manufacturers will build anything for a reasonable price providing a reasonable number are ordered. What's not good for prices is trying to 'knife-and-fork' small batches at a time.

Not even the Swiss are fully Electric - its a very high percentage (95% IIRC) but not total

Leitschenstein is the only fully electric rail network. All 9kms of it!

Stadler are small run specialists, as they grew by building railcars for the Swiss private railways, but they use a lot of common components, substituting voltage, rack, size and gauge as required

 

[WillPS]

In principal, I agree that expenditure should be channelled in to Electrification - but unfortunately that barely alleviates the problem on the unwired side of the network, and thats before you start factoring in the life-expired Pacers.

I thought the whole point of the ROSCOs was that investment would be from the banks, who would then lease the trains on to the TOCs. As it stands, they are leasing trains they received at a value of zero for several thousand per year!

 

[A60K]

Not even the Swiss are fully Electric - its a very high percentage (95% IIRC) but not total

Leitschenstein is the only fully electric rail network. All 9kms of it!

I can't argue with the Liechtenstein statistic - although their 'network' is actually run by OBB!

Interesting about the Swiss network not being fully electrified though, I always thought it was apart from the two heritage lines Brienz Rothorn Bahn and the old FO stretch, which are deliberately operated as steam railways. I'm not doubting you, but what part of the network isn't electrified?

 

[bnsf734]

I can't argue with the Liechtenstein statistic - although their 'network' is actually run by OBB!

Interesting about the Swiss network not being fully electrified though, I always thought it was apart from the two heritage lines Brienz Rothorn Bahn and the old FO stretch, which are deliberately operated as steam railways. I'm not doubting you, but what part of the network isn't electrified?

I have travelled extensively in Switzerland and can think of no diesel operated "normal" passenger lines. The only non-electric lines are the steam operated (with diesel backup) mountain lines like the Brienz-Rothorn Bahn.

Calv

 

[daccer]

I think the electrification programme has been forced on the govt a little by the unwillingness of the ROSCOS to fund anymore diesel builds. Even the relatively small unit build for Northern/FGW was going to be govt funded - this has now gone replaced by a cascade plan. I have a couple of issues with the plans.

Firstly passenger growth is goingn to continue and maybe even increases especially in the areas where there has traditionally been no investment and where there has always been latent demand. Northern have kept growing at up to 8% during the recession. It is going to take maybe 8 years before the full effects of the electrification programme kick in - 8 more years of growth mean that the cascaded units will not be used for unit replacement but more to alleviate overcrowding.

There will have to be more reopenings in the future - the socio-economic forces at work now are only going to get stronger. To keep costs down it is highly likely these new lines will be diesel operated and will draw upon the current fleet.

If noone is prepared to build/fund diesel units anymore then we will see more LHCS operating using 57/67 haulage purely to free up units. If enough units can ever be released to enable the Pacers to be scrapped I am not sure. It seems to me that the current cascades will be like sticking a plaster over a gun shot wound. By the time they happen the patient may well have bled to death!

 

[WillPS]

If noone is prepared to build/fund diesel units anymore then we will see more LHCS operating using 57/67 haulage purely to free up units. If enough units can ever be released to enable the Pacers to be scrapped I am not sure. It seems to me that the current cascades will be like sticking a plaster over a gun shot wound. By the time they happen the patient may well have bled to death!

Exactly! The way the DfT are treating the DMU side of things is as if it covers only a small amount of passenger needs - which simply isnt true, and wont be probably for half a century or more.

To simply leave a starving network to limp on with knackered stock is simply wrong.

 

[asylumxl]

I've got to say, though I doubt it'll happen, I dislike the idea of getting the 91s and MK4s on the MML.

We've only relatively recently got stock actually suitable for purpose! The HSTs cannot keep time on a lot of the services. I imagine neither will the 91s.

 

[Aictos]

True but the MML services instead of terminating at at Derby could carry onto Sheffield to terminate there with the existing Sheffield terminators terminating maybe at Doncaster?