Penalty Fare Documentation

[Richard Wilby]

My son was issued a Penalty Fare document about 10 days ago at Southampton Central railway station but has lost the documentation. My son just had his 16th birthday a few days before this was issued and the rail tickets had been bought by a member of the group who didn't realise that my son had just turned 16 so he bought him a junior ticket. The official that issued the Penalty Fare advised that we should appeal but without the document, we do not know the reference number. I completed a contact request form on the www.ircas.co.uk website on Monday 25th June but so far there has been no response even though it says that they will respond within 48 hours. Please help.

 

[furlong]

Was the Penalty Fare paid in full on the spot or is a sum still outstanding? It is known for it to take several days sometimes for the paperwork to be entered into the system.

 

[furlong]

And then if you want to appeal, do your research first - check from which station the journey commenced, whether it had working ticket issuing facilities at the time and whether Penalty Fares posters were displayed in full compliance with the latest rules. (As I travel round the network I see many stations that don't appear to comply with the latest rules regarding posters, which means appeals against Penalty Fares issued for journeys starting from those stations on those grounds should succeed until they fix this.) Provide multiple separate grounds for appeal if you can, including if you can, evidence of lack of dishonesty (citing appropriate official sources suggesting dishonesty is a necessary component of a valid PF, but you'll find this is not as clear cut as it ought to be in my opinion). Don't be surprised if you lose the first appeal and have to appeal again - in practice it's only really the final level of appeal that gives full consideration to wider grounds and consistency and as this is a new final appeals body, we're yet to hear on this forum of what sorts of decisions it's making (if it's even made any yet).

 

[swt_passenger]

And then if you want to appeal, do your research first - check from which station the journey commenced, whether it had working ticket issuing facilities at the time...

They managed to buy child tickets as per the first post. Can you envisage a situation where adult tickets would not be available at the same time?

 

[furlong]

They managed to buy child tickets as per the first post. Can you envisage a situation where adult tickets would not be available at the same time?

Not relevant. The question is about a Penalty Fare so it's the situation at the station where the journey began that counts - to issue a PF the passenger would be treated as having travelled without a ticket at all and the child ticket would be correctly ignored (and might even be refundable subject to admin fee if it hasn't also been lost). We haven't been told whether the tickets were purchased at the start of the journey or in advance.

 

[Haywain]

Not relevant. The question is about a Penalty Fare so it's the situation at the station where the journey began that counts - to issue a PF the passenger would be treated as having travelled without a ticket at all and the child ticket would be correctly ignored (and might even be refundable subject to admin fee if it hasn't also been lost). We haven't been told whether the tickets were purchased at the start of the journey or in advance.

I disagree, it is not at all relevant. The OP's son had a ticket, and if he was unaware that he should have had an adult priced ticket then the presence of ticket selling facilities would make no difference at all as the same would have been purchased. In any event, there is nothing to suggest that the ticket was not bought at the station where the journey commenced. Searching for a way out will be of much less help to the OP than giving sensible advice, which is to pay the PF and then to appeal on the grounds that the ticket was bought at the child rate in error by someone else.

 

[island]

It is entirely relevant. If the passenger’s journey began at a station without ticket facilities or with inadequate signage, a Penalty Fare cannot be validly issued, even if the passenger had pre-purchased an invalid ticket.

 

[Haywain]

It is entirely relevant. If the passenger’s journey began at a station without ticket facilities or with inadequate signage, a Penalty Fare cannot be validly issued, even if the passenger had pre-purchased an invalid ticket.

How relevant that could be depends on the amount the PF has been issued for and how easy it could be for the OP to visit the station in question to check the signage. If the PF is £20 I would suggest it would be much easier to pay unless they are very adjacent to the station.

 

[sarahj]

And then if you want to appeal, do your research first - check from which station the journey commenced, whether it had working ticket issuing facilities at the time and whether Penalty Fares posters were displayed in full compliance with the latest rules. (As I travel round the network I see many stations that don't appear to comply with the latest rules regarding posters, which means appeals against Penalty Fares issued for journeys starting from those stations on those grounds should succeed until they fix this.) Provide multiple separate grounds for appeal if you can, including if you can, evidence of lack of dishonesty (citing appropriate official sources suggesting dishonesty is a necessary component of a valid PF, but you'll find this is not as clear cut as it ought to be in my opinion). Don't be surprised if you lose the first appeal and have to appeal again - in practice it's only really the final level of appeal that gives full consideration to wider grounds and consistency and as this is a new final appeals body, we're yet to hear on this forum of what sorts of decisions it's making (if it's even made any yet).

It seems the railway think that if there is a PF sign on the entrance to a train, this counts, so note, next you board a Southern train at least, there will be a sticker just past the door.

 

[swt_passenger]

It seems the railway think that if there is a PF sign on the entrance to a train, this counts, so note, next you board a Southern train at least, there will be a sticker just past the door.

Just scanned through the recently amended rules and they don’t actually require notices on trains AFAICS.

I think this thread is going the way of many. Much speculation about stuff such as inability to buy tickets where there’s no evidence of that whatsoever in the original post...

 

[Richard Wilby]

Thank you all for your advice. I will go to Southampton Central Station to get any copies of the documentation. My son did not have the money to pay the penalty on the spot so it is outstanding. Without any documentation, I do not have a reference number to pay online. If I wait for a reminder to come by post, do I have to pay extra. It is GBP 27 as I remember from what my son said at the time.

 

[jon0844]

I believe that there must be a penalty fare poster near every entrance to the station and that's it. No need for painted lines on the ground or anything else. I doubt that there's any specific requirement for warnings on the trains either.

 

[Haywain]

Thank you all for your advice. I will go to Southampton Central Station to get any copies of the documentation. My son did not have the money to pay the penalty on the spot so it is outstanding. Without any documentation, I do not have a reference number to pay online. If I wait for a reminder to come by post, do I have to pay extra. It is GBP 27 as I remember from what my son said at the time.

All the station is likely to be able to do is to suggest who you should call. You will probably be better to phone the SWR customer services line, and ask them how to proceed.

 

[furlong]

Well you get 21 days to appeal, If that fails, you get 14 days for a 2nd appeal, and if that fails then 14 days for a final appeal.

The regulations say:

(3) The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—
(a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;
(b) the appellant is not the person liable for the payment of the penalty fare;
(c) the appellant owns a season ticket valid for the journey in question but was not in possession of the season ticket at the time the penalty fare was charged; or
(d) there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

So either you need to identify an error of fact and use 3(a) or hope for 3(d). Under the published code of practice (which doesn't strike me as compliant) the first two levels of appeal are likely to constrain themselves to judging 3(d) rigidly against secret internal guidelines provided by the train company, and it's only the final appeal that could take the freedom to consider any wider picture you provide - but when constructing your arguments, take careful note of the threshold set by that word "compelling".

While it's not necessary to pay the PF until the appeals process is exhausted, I think it's generally thought best to pay it as soon as you can so that you don't risk forgetting (or missing an appeals deadline) and getting hit by additional charges. If your appeal succeeds, they must reimburse you with 10 working days.

 

[island]

Thank you all for your advice. I will go to Southampton Central Station to get any copies of the documentation. My son did not have the money to pay the penalty on the spot so it is outstanding. Without any documentation, I do not have a reference number to pay online. If I wait for a reminder to come by post, do I have to pay extra. It is GBP 27 as I remember from what my son said at the time.

The station will not be able to assist. You will be wasting your trip.

As alluded to earlier in the thread, it really is relevant that we know at what station and approximately what time of day your son commenced his journey. If he had started at, for example, Beaulieu Road, he would have good grounds for appeal in that there were no ticketing facilities he could have used at his starting station, thereby invalidating the penalty fare. The fact that a ticket had been pre-purchased for him which was not valid does not affect this.

 

[furlong]

If I wait for a reminder to come by post, do I have to pay extra.

The original paperwork provided is considered to be sufficient notice - don't expect a reminder. I don't know what SWR does now (the regulations changed a few months ago so its approach might have changed) but it's not unknown for companies to attempt to apply significant additional charges for recovering an unpaid debt immediately or, rightly or wrongly, to withdraw an unpaid notice and attempt to prosecute instead.