Availability of accessible rail replacement coaches

[kingqueen]

A completely hypothetical scenario, but rail replacement bus driver is asked to run a fast service Exeter St David’s to Paddington. (I’ve used these stations simply because I’m familiar with two routing options, of similar driving time). The driver could choose to go M5 & M4, or alternative use the A303.
There’s no specified route just specified calling points. It therefore fails the test at point (a).

I certainly agree there is a question over what a "specified route" is legally.
I'm not selective quoting posts as some form of nefarious tactic to pick and choose which bits suit my argument, I'm just responding to bits that I feel like I've got something to say about. If I quoted everything, even where I've nothing to add, the thread would be even longer.
As the forum rules say:

When quoting other members' posts, please attempt to quote only the parts relevant to your response

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

yes you may be able to purchase a ticket a few minutes before departure but you still cannot spontenously travel as defined legally... ie board the coach and purchase a ticket on board... you have to pre-purchase a ticket off the coach. Now you may not like what I am about to say, but I think that 36 hrs notice of travel for a wheelchair user is a reasonable request as defined by the law. All the wheelchair accessible coaches I have been on require a certain amount of work to provide the wheelchair space when needed, and many designs involve the removal of available seats. So if you was to turn up with 10 minutes to go and demand travel then that would mean a severe delay to the coach whilst it is reconfigured, probably including a wait for a fitter to turn up with a spanner! furthermore a coach has 50 seats and loses 2 or 4 when carrying a wheelchair... so it there is a likelihood that by 2 hrs before departure 49 seats have been sold... you rock up with 10 minutes to go and demand your law given right to the wheelchair space... but by doing so 4 seats are taken out of action... what is the company meant to do with the 3 people it can no longer accomodate and fulfill its contract with?

I sincerely doubt you will follow through on that promise.

I don't think you'll help your cause much if you cast aspersions on other posters willingness or otherwise to abide by a legal decision... especially when they have quite specifically stated they are willing to be proved wrong and act appropriately if they are!

 

[lincman]

I sincerely doubt you will follow through on that promise.

I have worked with both operators and vehicle manufacturers from the days of Diptac right through to current legislation, I have been part of the largest groups of operators in making vehicles accessible, but I also knew the realities of operating buses and coaches and still do. T o single out honest bus and coach operators on this matter is both unfair and unjust, for as you well know TOCs are required to provide suitable alternative transport for any person with a disability on a Rail Replacement so just because you do not like using taxis, coming up with selective arguments to besmirch the industry. But I am a man of my word, and if you are proved right I will come and demonstrate at your local station

 

[kingqueen]

you still cannot spontenously travel as defined legally... ie board the coach and purchase a ticket on board...

I have done so, and seen others do likewise. But anyway.

Now you may not like what I am about to say, but I think that 36 hrs notice of travel for a wheelchair user is a reasonable request as defined by the law.

Reasonableness doesn't come into this particular law. It's the catchily-titled Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) (Amendment) Regulations 2002.

(2) If there is an unoccupied wheelchair space on the vehicle, a driver and a conductor shall allow a wheelchair user to board if—
(a) the wheelchair is of a type or size that can be correctly and safely located in that wheelchair space, and
(b) in so doing, neither the maximum seating nor standing capacity of the vehicle would be exceeded.
(3) For the purpose of paragraph (2), a wheelchair space is occupied if—
(a) there is a wheelchair user in that space; or
(b) passengers or their effects are in that space and they or their effects cannot readily and reasonably vacate it by moving to another part of the vehicle.

That's made a criminal offence by means of S42 PPV 1981.

if a person to whom regulations having effect by virtue of this section apply contravenes, or fails to comply with, any of the provisions of the regulations, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale and, in the case of an offence by a person acting as driver of a public service vehicle, the court by which he is convicted may, if it thinks fit, send notice of the particulars of the conviction to the Secretary of State requiring the Secretary of State to endorse them on the person's driving record

All the wheelchair accessible coaches I have been on require a certain amount of work to provide the wheelchair space when needed, and many designs involve the removal of available seats.

Yes, I know.
There are two answers to this:
1) leave the seats out unless and until needed due to the bus being near capacity
2) maintain the mechanism and driver training so that it's as easy as possible.
Often none of these occur, however. But that should be the coach operator's problem, not the wheelchair user's.
Schedule 1 of the PSVAR says:

One or more seats which are capable of being tipped, folded or otherwise moved may lie within the volume specified in sub-paragraph (1)(a) or within the gangway specified in paragraph 7 provided that the seat is capable of being easily moved out of the volume or out of the gangway. In the case of a single-deck or double-deck coach, this may include a seat which may be quickly dismantled or removed provided that the seat can be safely stowed.

So in theory, all seats in wheelchair spaces on PSVAR-eligible coaches can be "easily" and "quickly" removed. Though of course this is not the reality.
If well maintained, and the driver familiar, the seats in use on National Express and Megabus can be removed and converted without any tools in less than two minutes.

you rock up with 10 minutes to go and demand your law given right to the wheelchair space... but by doing so 4 seats are taken out of action... what is the company meant to do with the 3 people it can no longer accomodate and fulfill its contract with?

In such a circumstance, they should refuse me travel. The construction of the law is such that I should be refused admission if the coach would be beyond its legal capacity (which would probably be 40 seated or 36 seated plus one wheelchair user in the scenario you describe, so 39 + one wheelchair user would be over the limit) or if passengers or their effects are occupying the wheelchair space and cannot readily and easily vacate it, which I would contend would also be the case in the situation you describe.

 

[kingqueen]

so just because you do not like using taxis,

If rail replacement bus replacement taxis were within an order of magnitude of the reliablility,, safety and comfort of rail replacement buses, I wouldn't have an issue. The thing is, doubtless taxis could be something approaching equivalence to buses, perhaps they should be, but the overwhelming experience of many disabled friends and me is that they simply aren't.

coming up with selective arguments to besmirch the industry.

That is not my intent and I don't think this is what I'm doing either.

But I am a man of my word, and if you are proved right I will come and demonstrate at your local station

OK, if and when that happens I'll buy you a pint afterwards!

 

[lincman]

If rail replacement bus replacement taxis were within an order of magnitude of the reliablility,, safety and comfort of rail replacement buses, I wouldn't have an issue. The thing is, doubtless taxis could be something approaching equivalence to buses, perhaps they should be, but the overwhelming experience of many disabled friends and me is that they simply aren't.
That is not my intent and I don't think this is what I'm doing either.
OK, if and when that happens I'll buy you a pint afterwards!

Timothy Taylors if possible

 

[kingqueen]

Timothy Taylors if possible

You're on.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

hang on... so you, and others you know, have rocked up at the last minute, and you have been accomodated...ie you have been allowed travel despite being in breach of the companies policy in such matters... so you have been accomodated by the defendants in this case... you will be seen as a vexatious litigant in this case!

ok... another example then... a nat ex coach is operating london- Newcastle... it is of the type where the seat has to be physically removed... the coach pulls into Doncaster where you have decided to purchase a ticket at the last minute and you board. You have purchased the last available ticket, so there are already 47 other people on board... it is End of University term and all the other passengers have got the maximum allowance of luggage, meaning the lockers are full.... what the hell is the driver meant to do with the removed seats? leave them at the roadside? Tie them onto the roof with a bungee rope? ask you to hold them on your lap?

No, despite what you assert, again using selective quotes of legislation, PSVAR, construction and use, Conduct regulations do not create absolute rules... it has been clearly stated in relevant legislations that Operators must make reasonable adjustments to facilitate equal opportunity for disabled people.. and if you pursue this particular action {against express operators} I'm pretty damn sure that any judge will find for the operators involved that they have done what is required at law ie they have made reasonable adjustment. Of course you have also, in your blind charge on your crusade, missed one vital point.... the policy of 36 hrs notice is there for your benefit more than anyone else's!

but to be honest, going by the way this thread has run along, it is quite clear that you have nothing more than a witch hunt against the psv industry in general!

Back to the rail replacement issue... you state you are doing this, in large part due to your dissatisfaction with the taxi alternative offered by TOC's... here's a radical idea.. instead of conducting a crusade against the bus industry how about directing your ire towards the taxi industry and get them to become as accessible {in every sense of the word} as buses?[/QUOTE]

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

• Help & Advice
  

Wheelchair User Guidelines

• Home
• Help
• Wheelchair User Guidelines

Wheelchair User Guidelines

We will always listen to feedback and have been speaking to a representative of the wheelchair user community about our accessibility policy. We're making improvements as a result starting with some clearer guidelines below.

Next steps include reviewing our other communications and reminding all our drivers, coach station staff and ticket office staff of our policy. We look forward to welcoming on board as many wheelchair users as we are able to, in accordance with our policy.

Whether booking travel with us in advance or at the time of travel, we need to carry out certain checks to ensure we are able to provide travel.

We must check:

• (i) that the passenger’s wheelchair is compatible with the wheelchair space on the coach
• (ii) that the combined weight of the passenger and the wheelchair do not exceed the maximum weight capable of being lifted by the wheelchair lift;
• (iii) that the passenger’s wheelchair has been crash tested;
• (iv) that the stops at which the passenger wishes to board and alight the coach are accessible stops at which the wheelchair lift can be deployed; and
• (v) that the particular coach on which the passenger wishes to travel is not already fully booked.

While we recommend that wheelchair users contact us on the following local rate telephone number: 03717 81 81 81 (lines open 8am - 10pm 7 days a week) at least 36 hours in advance of travel to give us time to carry out these checks, if they wish to book travel on the day we will make all reasonable efforts to carry out these checks on the day. If all checks are clear, we will be able to complete the booking.

{bold mine}

whilst this is off topic, having looked at National Express' website you have no case at law. They do not require 36 hrs notice... they recommend and they also explain good reasons why they do so.. furthermore they also state that, should you turn up on the day they will basically do everything they can do to accomodate you. Case closed m'lud!

 

[kingqueen]

despite what you assert, again using selective quotes of legislation, PSVAR, construction and use, Conduct regulations do not create absolute rules... it has been clearly stated in relevant legislations that Operators must make reasonable adjustments to facilitate equal opportunity for disabled people..

See this is not the case. I'm not selectively quoting it, we're talking about two entirely separate bits of legislation here.
The Equality Act 2010 obliges service providers, including transport providers, to make reasonable adjustments (to various things). But the Conduct Regulations really are that black and white in this instance. Much clearer and less open to interpretation than the question of PSVAR applicability to rail replacement services. And there"s no "reasonable" in the conduct regulations (except for the question as to under which circumstances passengers or their effects occupying the wheelchair space can or cannot readily and reasonably move from it.)
Believe me, I know these aspects of the legislation exceedingly well, having gone through it all in minute detail for a solid 5+ years, through County Court, Court of Appeal and Supreme Court.
The Supreme Court agreed that the conduct regulations are an absolute. The Equality Act requires providers to make reasonable adjustments under civil law over and above the mandatory provisions in criminal law. As the Supreme Court justices put it:

mere compliance with the earlier regulations, both as to the provision of the wheelchair space and affording access to it, is not necessarily enough. Parliament must have contemplated, in passing the 2005 Act, that other adjustments to “business as usual” might be needed in order to reduce the difficul faced by disabled people in ties using public transport services. The second is that, as the Recorder pointed out, “there is an enormous difference between imposing a criminal sanction upon a driver and the discriminate by a failure to t obligation upon a service provider not to ake reasonable steps to adjust a present policy which is having the effect of substantially disadvantaging a disabled person"

So the Conduct Regulations are a backstop without the reliability clause. The Equality Act imposes civil duties over and above that to make reasonable adjustments.
West Yorkshire Police Crime Commissioner confirmed it:

I have heard back from West Yorkshire Police now. They have confirmed that bus drivers refusing access to wheelchair users is a summary only offence which can be enforced by the police.

Any reports of access issues would be logged and an enquiry conducted on the evidence available. Prosecutions could subsequently be considered.

The police would therefore encourage anyone to contact the police if they believe they have been a victim of this crime.

They have taken steps to ensure the Force’s Contact Centre staff are informed to ensure that any calls are handled appropriately.

It is always a reasonable adjustment to comply with one's criminal law obligations.

Of course you have also, in your blind charge on your crusade, missed one vital point.... the policy of 36 hrs notice is there for your benefit more than anyone else's!

I don't really care, to be honest, whether something is being done for my benefit or not, if it's breaking the law. I know it's generally best all round to pre-book - for non-disabled people as well as disabled - but I want at least something approaching the choice non-disabled.people expect and enjoy. I want to be able to take a chance and Turn Up And Go, just like everybody else.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

https://uk.megabus.com/help?searchTerm=wheelchair

Travelling by coach: To avoid disappointment, we recommend that all wheelchair users contact us before purchasing their tickets (preferably at least 36 hours before their intended journey), to book the wheelchair space and allow us to make your journey as comfortable as possible and whether a personal care attendant (PCA) will be accompanying you.

Again from the Megabus site they RECOMMEND not REQUIRE 36 hrs notice... again no case to answer!

 

[kingqueen]

hang on... so you, and others you know, have rocked up at the last minute, and you have been accomodated...ie you have been allowed travel despite being in breach of the companies policy in such matters... so you have been accomodated by the defendants in this case... you will be seen as a vexatious litigant in this case!

What? I'venever travelled on a coach in my wheelchair. I don't know where you're getting that from.

ut to be honest, going by the way this thread has run along, it is quite clear that you have nothing more than a witch hunt against the psv industry in general!

Your labeling of me and defaming me is not only inaccurate and tiresome, it is defamatory. Please stop.

Back to the rail replacement issue... you state you are doing this, in large part due to your dissatisfaction with the taxi alternative offered by TOC's... here's a radical idea.. instead of conducting a crusade against the bus industry how about directing your ire towards the taxi industry and get them to become as accessible {in every sense of the word} as buses?

Whatever gave you the impression that I don't campaign on these issues?

 

[kingqueen]

whilst this is off topic, having looked at National Express' website you have no case at law. They do not require 36 hrs notice... they recommend and they also explain good reasons why they do so.. furthermore they also state that, should you turn up on the day they will basically do everything they can do to accomodate you. Case closed m'lud!

Read that again.

We will always listen to feedback and have been speaking to a representative of the wheelchair user community about our accessibility policy. We're making improvements as a result starting with some clearer guidelines below.

Guess who that representative of the wheelchair user community was? And guess what I got changed? That's right: their previous flat refusal to accept wheelchair users without at least 36 hours notice, to only recommending such and doing everything in their power to enable wheelchair users to travel at no notice! It was me!

 

[kingqueen]

Again from the Megabus site they RECOMMEND not REQUIRE 36 hrs notice... again no case to answer!

Yes indeed! I told you that I'd forced them to change!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

What? I'venever travelled on a coach in my wheelchair. I don't know where you're getting that from.

from your post at #425?

I have done so, and seen others do likewise. But anyway.

Then when asked why you had gone to the police you stated, as part of your reply to my question that

I did. That worked in one provider, but not the other two.

Now when challenged on what is actually on TWO of the "offenders" websites you wish to claim credit for both... so was it 1, 2, 3, or none of the providers that INSISTED on 36 hrs notice? of course I cannot look up whether the policy has changed in the last year or so, nor can I say whether you have had any influence on any changes made. I am not privy to that information. I only have YOUR word that Nat Ex are referring to you.

Now as to your complaint that I am defaming you by stating my opinion of your motives... sorry, but that isn't defamation... it's an opinion... and certainly if you don't want people to question your motives then you would be wise not to question other peoples integrity/ professionalism:

I find that your argument that the whole industry simply have not realised, just goes show that you will only opinion that counts is yours. Go on with your quest and please if you are right and everybody else is wrong do let us all know, and I shall be at my local station stopping every single non accessible vehicle from operating.

I sincerely doubt you will follow through on that promise.

 

[kingqueen]

from your post at #425?

Ah, I see. It was before I was a wheelchair. I have not traveled on a coach in my wheelchair. (To be 100% accurate: I once caught Stagecoach's Number 50 bus from Portree to Kyle in my wheelchair, having booked in advance, which turned out to be a coach, and that was the only time I have been on a coach in my wheelchair. I haven't travelled on any Megabus / Citylink / National Express coach in my wheelchair, nor have I travelled without pre-booking.)

Now when challenged on what is actually on TWO of the "offenders" websites you wish to claim credit for both...

Yep! It was me. I got National Express, Citylink and Megabus all to change their policies.

so was it 1, 2, 3, or none of the providers that INSISTED on 36 hrs notice?

All of them.

Operations Director of Scottish CityLink:

Taking your points in turn -

1) indicate on all published timetables and route information which of your services are usually served by wheelchair accessible vehicles - all of our services are operated by wheelchair accessible vehicles; as per the above that is the base requirement for any coach operating on our network.

2) change your Conditions of Carriage such that the requirement that wheelchair users "must" phone 36 hours in advance is removed - 'must' will be removed and will be replaced with 'it is recommended that'.

National Express: My discussions with the managing director were confidential, so I can't quote them (sadly), but they were subject to a couple of minor news stories which are still online

Operation Director of Megabus:

Firstly I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. As I am sure you are aware, the Stagecoach Group, which megabus.com is part of, has always looked to ensure accessible
transport for all. Following your email, we have taken the opportunity to review our Conditions of Carriage as well as the guidance given to our staff.

Following our review of our conditions of carriage current wording and instructions to staff, I can advise you that we are in the process of making the following changes to our megabus.com conditions of carriage.
For your information, I can advise that they will be amended to the following: -

Wheelchairs are accepted for travel on all our accessible coaches, provided that the wheelchair space has not already been booked and the wheelchair can be safely accommodated. Wheelchair space is limited and we
strongly recommend, before booking your ticket, that you call our Assisted Travel Team (0141 352 4444) to book your space/ confirm availability in order to avoid disappointment. It would assist us if you could do this at least 36 hours before your journey.

of course I cannot look up whether the policy has changed in the last year or so, nor can I say whether you have had any influence on any changes made. I am not privy to that information. I only have YOUR word that Nat Ex are referring to you.

Just as well I'm honest to a fault, then.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Ah, I see. It was before I was a wheelchair. I have not traveled on a coach in my wheelchair. (To be 100% accurate: I once caught Stagecoach's Number 50 bus from Portree to Kyle in my wheelchair, having booked in advance, which turned out to be a coach, and that was the only time I have been on a coach in my wheelchair. I haven't travelled on any Megabus / Citylink / National Express coach in my wheelchair, nor have I travelled without pre-booking.)

Yep! It was me. I got National Express, Citylink and Megabus all to change their policies.All of them.

Operations Director of Scottish CityLink:



National Express: My discussions with the managing director were confidential, so I can't quote them (sadly), but they were subject to a couple of minor news stories which are still online

Operation Director of Megabus:



Just as well I'm honest to a fault, then.

out of interest.... what do you think their original intention was? do you not think that their original policies were in place to give the best service possible? after all they were, and are, only asking for the notice so that they can make sure your journey is as trouble free as possible.

 

[kingqueen]

out of interest.... what do you think their original intention was? do you not think that their original policies were in place to give the best service possible? after all they were, and are, only asking for the notice so that they can make sure your journey is as trouble free as possible.

I suspect their original intent was making everybody's journey as trouble free as possible, and especially the driver's. Genuinely not realising that they were under a criminal law obligation to allow access to the wheelchair space even if not prebooked, and of the same opinion as you, that 36 hours notice is reasonable in order to account for the practical issues of altering and removing fixtures and fittings.

 

[kingqueen]

Ah, I see. It was before I was a wheelchair.

for the avoidance of any doubt, to the best of my knowledge, I am not, and never have been, a wheelchair

 

[Deafdoggie]

National Express still ask for 36 hours notice where possible, and do not guarantee that a coach will have a wheelchair space. However, they will accept a wheelchair "on demand" if there is a space, and the wheelchair meets the requirements of the coach. So it would seem a lot of National Express drivers are driving illegally in light of the above, and the police being called has had very little affect indeed.

I am sure we are all agreed, that all vehicles should be accessible to all in the ideal world, BUT, we are not in the ideal world, and have to accept that some vehicles will not be available to some people, despite everyones best intentions. The cost of buying a wheelchair accessible vehicle means fares go up, and discriminates against the poorest people. It is all well and good that we have full accessible local buses now, but bus usage is at an all-time low, as paying for these buses has driven fares up. Someone somewhere looses out, no one wants it to be them.

I understand coach providers are buying new, inaccessible, coaches even now, because they don't have to be accessible for use on coach trips.

And this is why RRB will not be wheelchair-accessible, there are simply not the coaches to do it. IF, (and I know it is a big IF) someone did take it to court, AND they won, we would still not have wheelchair RRBs as there just aren't any to have.

In light of all the above, I really don't see the point of this thread. It has been done to death, it has been painfully explained several times, why, not only is it not a legal requirement, but even it were, it wouldn't happen. The OP seems to think bus companies and TOCs are unaware of the problem and simply not thought about it, when everyone has told him we are all fully aware of it, and have no way to provide the service, but really do the best that can be done.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'd add to Deafdoggie's remarks that surely the object is to allow our wheelchair user to travel from A to B as comfortably, conveniently and affordably as an able-bodied person, not to give him a ride on a train/bus/coach.

A suitably built or adapted car of their own (with a driver if necessary) will often be the best solution, especially for 6' 7" wheelchair users (of which there can't be many).

 

[Robertj21a]

National Express still ask for 36 hours notice where possible, and do not guarantee that a coach will have a wheelchair space. However, they will accept a wheelchair "on demand" if there is a space, and the wheelchair meets the requirements of the coach. So it would seem a lot of National Express drivers are driving illegally in light of the above, and the police being called has had very little affect indeed.

I am sure we are all agreed, that all vehicles should be accessible to all in the ideal world, BUT, we are not in the ideal world, and have to accept that some vehicles will not be available to some people, despite everyones best intentions. The cost of buying a wheelchair accessible vehicle means fares go up, and discriminates against the poorest people. It is all well and good that we have full accessible local buses now, but bus usage is at an all-time low, as paying for these buses has driven fares up. Someone somewhere looses out, no one wants it to be them.



And this is why RRB will not be wheelchair-accessible, there are simply not the coaches to do it. IF, (and I know it is a big IF) someone did take it to court, AND they won, we would still not have wheelchair RRBs as there just aren't any to have.

In light of all the above, I really don't see the point of this thread. It has been done to death, it has been painfully explained several times, why, not only is it not a legal requirement, but even it were, it wouldn't happen. The OP seems to think bus companies and TOCs are unaware of the problem and simply not thought about it, when everyone has told him we are all fully aware of it, and have no way to provide the service, but really do the best that can be done.

RRB doesn't need to be 100% coaches, a PSVAR-compliant *bus* is perfectly adequate (as I have mentioned before, but most people ignore.......).
There are many more buses available than coaches.

 

[Deafdoggie]

There are many more buses available than coaches.

But there aren't. They are all in service use. Operators just don't have the spare capacity, they need all the buses in service. Due to the limited spare capacity, more maintenance is done on a Sunday when less are in service, so there aren't even many spares then. Gone are the days of spare buses sitting around depots all day, let alone hiring them out, they can barely cover any of their breakdowns now!

 

[Dai Corner]

But there aren't. They are all in service use. Operators just don't have the spare capacity, they need all the buses in service. Due to the limited spare capacity, more maintenance is done on a Sunday when less are in service, so there aren't even many spares then. Gone are the days of spare buses sitting around depots all day, let alone hiring them out, they can barely cover any of their breakdowns now!

There are lots of buses and a smaller number of coaches on the Newport-Bristol run at the moment. The Cardiff - Ebbw Vales are all buses as far as I've seen.

The buses are nearly all from the Bristol and Bath University services though, presumably spare as most of the students will have gone away for the summer.

 

[Robertj21a]

But there aren't. They are all in service use. Operators just don't have the spare capacity, they need all the buses in service. Due to the limited spare capacity, more maintenance is done on a Sunday when less are in service, so there aren't even many spares then. Gone are the days of spare buses sitting around depots all day, let alone hiring them out, they can barely cover any of their breakdowns now!

There are still more PSVAR-compliant buses than coaches - by a good few thousand !. Not all operators use Sundays to catch up on maintenance.

For *planned* rail replacements there is no logical reason whatsoever why a few buses can't be added to the mix, (even if they prefer coaches, for luggage reasons). If Stagecoach, First and GoAhead have all found suitable PSVAR-compliant buses to send out on rail replacements recently then I fail to see where the problem lies. I'd agree that *emergency* rail replacements are, as always, a totally different issue.

 

[Sybic26]

One further complication that will arise in the very near future is LEZ compliance. How many coaches are Euro 6 compliant?

 

[kingqueen]

National Express still ask for 36 hours notice where possible, and do not guarantee that a coach will have a wheelchair space. However, they will accept a wheelchair "on demand" if there is a space, and the wheelchair meets the requirements of the coach. So it would seem a lot of National Express drivers are driving illegally in light of the above

Driving illegally how? The above is entirely compliant with the law.

and the police being called has had very little affect indeed.

Involving the police resulted in the policy you've just quoted.

And this is why RRB will not be wheelchair-accessible, there are simply not the coaches to do it.

Hurray, we've returned to the original topic. That's what I originally asked and said also.

In light of all the above, I really don't see the point of this thread.

Feel free not to read it or respond then, particularly if you're going to use your response to personalise and criticise rather than respond on the actual issues.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

There are still more PSVAR-compliant buses than coaches - by a good few thousand !. Not all operators use Sundays to catch up on maintenance.

For *planned* rail replacements there is no logical reason whatsoever why a few buses can't be added to the mix, (even if they prefer coaches, for luggage reasons). If Stagecoach, First and GoAhead have all found suitable PSVAR-compliant buses to send out on rail replacements recently then I fail to see where the problem lies. I'd agree that *emergency* rail replacements are, as always, a totally different issue.

In general, it is very rare now for non-compliant buses to be used due to the fact that there are now very few around {don't forget the newest step-entrance DD's are now 20 yrs old and are no matter how you look at them, at the end of their useful service lives... as for SD buses... well they are now at least 25 yrs old! The problem is with the coaches... and the problem with coaches is that, although new coaches for express/ scheduled services have been required to be compliant since 2005, there is no requirement for tour/ PH coaches to be compliant. And therein lies the problem... coaches on express/ scheduled services are in the minority {albeit a large one} A further complication is that, due to their nature, the likes of Nat Ex/ Megabus have a fairly consistent PVR 7 days a week, meaning that any coaches not actually in service are required for maintenance... there are very few spare on any given day for "other work". A further complication, certainly with Nat Ex, is that those vehicles are not allowed to be used for any other purpose than Nat Ex work which is part of the contract terms.

One thing does puzzle me though, and that is what is happening to these coaches once they have come off of Nat Ex work {remember a coach will only be used on frontline service for 5-7 yrs} the oldest are now 13 yrs old and yet none seems to be coming onto the 2nd hand market and having a 2nd life... so where are they going?

Truth is, until ALL new coaches are required to be PSVAR then there will never be enough available for Rail Replacement... and even if the law was changed tomorrow it would be 15 years or so before non compliant vehicles would be unusable... after all will the government like the alternative of a large compensation bill if it rendered the whole of the coach parc unusable overnight?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Hurray, we've returned to the original topic.

to be fair, the reason why things go "off topic" as you put it isn't to frustrate you in your quest for answers, rather it is because the issue you want to debate doesn't exist in total isolation from the rest of the PSV industry

 

[kingqueen]

I'd add to Deafdoggie's remarks that surely the object is to allow our wheelchair user to travel from A to B as comfortably, conveniently and affordably as an able-bodied person, not to give him a ride on a train/bus/coach.

A suitably built or adapted car of their own (with a driver if necessary) will often be the best solution, especially for 6' 7" wheelchair users (of which there can't be many).

It's not the best solution for me, for all sorts of reasons.
1) it's considerably more expensive, and I have no money
2) Employing a driver is non-viable
3) It reduces spontaneity
4) My disability is such that it is exacerbated considerably by car transport, in fact it's dangerous and has previously resulted in a stroke
5) I feel really rough on long car journeys.
6) I love public transport journeys, and particularly train journeys. They are a main pleasure in my life.
7) I don't want to be segregated
8) I want to have the same opportunities, as much as practicable, as anybody else
9) It's also (theoretically) the intent behind the law, that disabled people should have such.