And the fact that you can turn up and pay the driver
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New Transdev Cityzap services registered (and now cancelled)
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And the fact that you can turn up and pay the driver
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Not if you are physically passing the stops anyway! Why not stop in the centre of Failsworth? You have to pass through, probably very slowly at peak times
You can turn up on National Express and pay the driver as well.
Sam
Supposedly the lack of stops gives the driver a choice of routes to avoid congestion, thereby making the service faster. I'm sure this was also said about the fast X43 journeys, but they have to go up Rochdale Road because there's a timing point there.
Same Fare as if you were buying the ticket from the Agent or machine in (for instance) Manchester Central?
But it still stops on Broadway, so has to pass through Failsworth to get there.
I don't know what traffic is like in the area. Might they occasionally use Lightbowne Road? Either way, a Leeds-Manchester bus is a silly idea.
Cheaper than if you were buying it from an agent they normally add a booking fee or commission onto it.
See here https://www.nxagents.com/theguide/060/060F(Jan2018+).pdf
Sam
Ayman Ilham
Member
Yeah, but that's literally more expensive than even the train if you're going for a return journey!! Manchester to Leeds is about £22 open return on NatEx from the driver (meanwhile, just book online the day before and you can easily get £3-5 each way) whereas on Transpennine Express, walkup return fares are only £17 (not sure if that's anytime or off-peak). Cityzap, on the other hand, is only £9.50 return (£6.50 student discount).
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Because you will have to physically stop and that takes time and replicate that at a dozen stops....well, it can add that time and so resources. More importantly, it loses the ability to amend the route to avoid delays which is a key part of the ZAP idea, as others have remarked.
I don't believe that TPE walk ups are £17, the cheapest is £17.50 and is route Via Hebden Bridge which means that you are limited to the slower northern route via the Calder Valley of which anything from Northern's Random Unit Generator could pop up.
Sam
Ayman Ilham
Member
Okay, I just found out that the off-peak return fare on TPE is actually £22.70, it must have changed a while ago! Pretty much on par with the National Express fare, which is £23 return and therefore works out better in peak times, when the train ticket is more expensive and you're likely to be standing anyway while the coach makes sure you get a seat! Off-peak, however, train would definitely be better as it's faster, more frequent and avoids traffic! One-way fares, on the other hand, would be where walk-up fares on the coach would work out better than the train due to the fact that train walk-up fares on trains in this country are unique in that they're almost the same whether you're buying single or return (about 10% difference I think) whereas a return is just under double the single fare on the coach.
One, maybe two stops, not a dozen. And besides, I was thinking of the centre of Failsworth on the main Oldham Road *instead* of a "middle of nowhere" stop on Broadway. Not convinced there are alternative routes, especially if Broadway still has to be served.
I had one instance when a Zap I was on went via Rochdale Road to Middleton, then via Foxdenton Lane to Broadway
Sounds very convoluted. Presumably, there was a specific road closure on Oldham Road to make such a big diversion - which in turn would probably mean it wouldn't need a route variation built in to the registration.
I think this aspect is largely irrelevant though. Its failure can probably be blamed on two more fundamental issues that have plagued the deregulated bus industry:
1. Only compete where there is an established, frequent public transport service (or two) in place.
2. Narrow your target customers unnecessarily.
I don’t think many people know this though, and would never consider it, I know I wouldn’t.
If I was going on a shopping trip or a day out, I wouldn’t book a National Express to Manchester.
This was probably the market they were hoping to aim for.
Regarding extra stops increasing resources, there was over an hours layover in every four hour cycle, so they could easily have slowed down the route by a few minutes to stop more times.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
You'd somehow think that one or two stops and the passengers that they would glean is not going to help them that much and it does tie their hands in respect to being able to re-route as per the ZAP concept.
Well, of course you're going to exploit established flows - it's where people go to and from.
We have all sorts of fantasists on this board and other boards going "oooh, perhaps we could have a service that goes from X town to Y town" when the reality is that there isn't the established flow to justify it. It's easy to say "that's a lack of innovation" and, in part, that is a reasonable point but by the same token, passenger travelling patterns are well established. New ones do come into orbit (like a major development such as a shopping centre or new hospital) whilst other services have a shelf life and they decline and die.
The problem is it's difficult to establish a new service where there isn't an established service (it's hard to call it compete if there's nothing to compete against) and British business (and even subsidised services) don't look at building this kind of thing over the longer term. Also whilst companies may well decide which customers they'd like to encourage I've never heard of a service that's refused customers because they're outside of the demographic that their marketing department was targeting (ignoring the fact it would be illegal anyway).
Just seen this, can't say I'm the slightest bit surprised. It's a service that suffered many delays of services and many services which seldom saw double figures in terms of passenger use.
Btw, anybody know what is happening with the reliability of the York Cityzap, the last few weeks/months seems to have seen a real drop in reliability with services often turning around short of their destination and thus passengers having to wait an hour for a bus.
Btw, anybody know what is happening with the reliability of the York Cityzap, the last few weeks/months seems to have seen a real drop in reliability with services often turning around short of their destination and thus passengers having to wait an hour for a bus.
Plus bus travel is a declining market, and pretty much anywhere vaguely worthwhile has or used to have a service, and if it didn't make a profit before it won't now. The obvious exception to this is major new developments, but Transdev have probably the worst area of any notable operator in the UK on that score.
I didn't mean literally rejecting certain group s, I just meant they solely targeted Twitter users and disaffected rail commuters. Certainly at the Manchester end most people will hardly have heard of City zap
Stan Drews
Established Member
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What do you think they should have done to change that, and what sort of budget would you have set aside for it?
Produced and supplied paper timetables from day one, instead of only making them available around Easter; Deploying people to give out fliers (and even vouchers) around Chorlton Street and Piccadilly Gardens, instead of just Piccadilly Rail Station. They could even have attempted to contact Granada and the MEN to publicise it. Oh! and brand the buses Manchester to Leeds instead of just "Cityzap".
They did send out people to Piccadilly handing out money off vouchers and free trips though??
I believe they also had a publicity event before the service even started, also in Manchester.
Sam
Stan Drews
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Do you mean branding like this?
https://goo.gl/images/ABnVSn
...and the printed timetables were available when the service started, so no idea what your reference to “making them available around Easter” means?
They certainly sent people to Piccadilly *Rail* Station, but I never heard even local enthusiast forums refer to anything in/near Piccadilly Gardens.
The "Leeds-Manchester" bit doesn't exactly jump out on a grey background, does it. As for printed timetables, a few handfuls may have appeared in Travelshops, but my info is that they only made a concerted effort to provide TFGM with the numbers they wanted when more mainstream services were revised from 8th April.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
There was also a launch event in Leeds (just to recognise the service doesn’t only serve Manchester) that was reported in the YEP!
Yes, but the brand was already well known in Leeds.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Yes but the service to Manchester wasn’t which is why they had a launch event.
Turns out they had launch events, did give out timetables, did brand the vehicles (though not to your required clarity) and did have people out distributing flyers and vouchers.
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