Arriva Rail North DOO

[Robertj21a]

That’s interesting. A friend of mine who’s position was “under review” was looking at a local college to get some more skills and was quoted in the thousands for a course and was told there was no Government help. The only way for them to get any kind of training to upskill them self was to go to the Open University via a student loan or wait until they became unemployed. They got the distinct impression that because they weren’t yet a burden on the DWP and were still employed in some capacity that was fine. It’s utter madness that people in this country aren’t helped and encouraged to up skill themselves. Education should not be a business it should be freely available to all who want it. Why do you think people are scared to lose their jobs and are willing to fight to keep them. If you embolden people to improve themselves and their career prospects most will grasp those opportunities. If you use education as a business to make money people will probably not be able afford to do it.

Although I know you detest zero-hours contracts, many people on them find it ideal for undertaking further studies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although I know you detest zero-hours contracts, many people on them find it ideal for undertaking further studies.

They do have a purpose (casual work for the likes of students), but I think most would agree they are misused.

 

[Journeyman]

Although I know you detest zero-hours contracts, many people on them find it ideal for undertaking further studies.

ZHCs work for a lot of people. I used to have two of them, acting as a co-ordinator for rail replacement bus services. It helped me get back in the industry after some time away from it, and I enjoyed it enormously. Many of my colleagues were students or people who earned their living doing multiple different things, and it allowed a great deal of flexibility. I was lucky, though - we were given considerable freedom in when we worked and could turn down anything that we didn't want. A lot of them don't work like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was lucky, though - we were given considerable freedom in when we worked and could turn down anything that we didn't want. A lot of them don't work like that.

That is true. I think it would solve a fair bit of the problem were the law changed to give equal rights to employer and employee under such contracts - that is, both have to give the same notice to each other about whether work will take place on a given day at a given time or not, and on receiving such notice work only takes place where both parties agree it with no pressure on either side. Also the employer would not be able to place any restriction on other work the employee may do.

 

[Dave1987]

Although I know you detest zero-hours contracts, many people on them find it ideal for undertaking further studies.

I detest the way companies abuse zero hours contracts. I detest the casualisation of work that is creeping in. If people are happy with their zero hours contract then fine. But anyone on a zero hours contract who wants a contract with committed hours should legally be allowed to demand one for the approx hours they consistently work on a regular basis.

I detest the likes of Deliveroo who has given their permanent staff a huge bonus but their “independent contractors” who have arguably done the most amount of work for the company are getting didily squat! Capitalism at its worst!

 

[Carlisle]

I detest the likes of Deliveroo who has given their permanent staff a huge bonus but their “independent contractors” who have arguably done the most amount of work for the company are getting didily squat! Capitalism at its worst!

True, but aren’t railways and other sectors almost as guilty? did many fairly well paid Tube drivers decline the 2012 Olympic bonus on moral grounds because it wasn’t initially being offered to the much lower paid bus drivers serving exactly the same area?,

 

[northwichcat]

I've noticed on the new vacancies page Northern seem to make a conductor's role sound like it's a customer service role which also has a key safety responsibility, whereas they call a dispatcher a CSA but make clear it's a safety critical position.

Y2018/172, Customer Service Assistant (Despatch) Wilmslow

As a member of despatch staff your base being Wilmslow you will be required to cover Safety despatch duties on a shift based pattern earlies and late shifts, shifts will be posted the week prior by your roster clerk, you’ll give our customers a warm welcome, discuss their travelling requirements and assist them on the station and onto the train where required, this role includes safe despatch of trains as this role is a safety critical position, we require you to be proactive in your approach.

Y2018/180 Conductor Liverpool
A Conductor at Northern is a Customer service professional and you’ll be the first point of contact for customers on board our trains. You’ll be customer focused in everything you do and provide our customers with a fantastic experience whilst travelling on our services, helping customers who require assistance.

With a key safety responsibility, you’ll be operating doors ensuring the safe boarding of customers and signalling to the driver when safe to start. You will ensure our customers have the right tickets for their journey and selling tickets when necessary.

When things may not be running so smoothly you will keep our customers informed throughout their journey, your excellent communication skills will help us make a difference.

In order to provide the best service to our customers, we like to hire the best people... People who are highly motivated, positive and enthusiastic.

In addition to this you will have great attention to detail, be a good planner, organised, and have the ability to make decisions as well as being confident and able to remain calm under pressure.

http://www.northern.engageats.co.uk/LoginV2.aspx

 

[northwichcat]

It sounds like the RMT are making progress in reading the franchise agreement

Northern taxpayers and passengers will be footing bill for cost of this week's strike action union reveals

‎RAIL UNION RMT has called for last ditch talks to resolve this week's strike action as it is revealed northern taxpayers and passengers, and not Northern Rail, are footing the bill for the cost of strike action.

A clause in the franchise agreement signed between Northern Rail and the government says the Secretary of State, Chris Grayling, can reimburse Northern Rail for “net losses arising from industrial action”. This means the government is using northern taxpayers and passengers money to bankroll German state owned Northern for losses for the days of strike action to date and the three days of action this w‎eek.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/northern-taxpayers-will-be-footing-bill-for-strike-action/

I wonder when they'll get to the final page which states each time the RMT mentions the German state the Northern directors get a bonus.

 

[Robertj21a]

I detest the way companies abuse zero hours contracts. I detest the casualisation of work that is creeping in. If people are happy with their zero hours contract then fine. But anyone on a zero hours contract who wants a contract with committed hours should legally be allowed to demand one for the approx hours they consistently work on a regular basis.

I detest the likes of Deliveroo who has given their permanent staff a huge bonus but their “independent contractors” who have arguably done the most amount of work for the company are getting didily squat! Capitalism at its worst!

I don't need your rants all over again - as I said, I know you detest them. Remind me not to give you a platform for spouting off in future !

Shame you didn't comment on my key point about how helpful they are for some people.

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't need your rants all over again - as I said, I know you detest them. Remind me not to give you a platform for spouting off in future !

Shame you didn't comment on my key point about how helpful they are for some people.

The argument is that these contracts are increasingly being used in lieu of proper employment contracts, which can still be structured to offer part time hours/flexible working.

They might be useful for some people but there’s no getting away from the fact the flexibility conferred is generally intended to benefit the employer than the employee.

But I suspect you are fully aware of this!

 

[Robertj21a]

The argument is that these contracts are increasingly being used in lieu of proper employment contracts, which can still be structured to offer part time hours/flexible working.

They might be useful for some people but there’s no getting away from the fact the flexibility conferred is generally intended to benefit the employer than the employee.

But I suspect you are fully aware of this!

Yes, more than aware of all the arguments, that's why I didn't want any more. ALL I said was that many people found zero hours useful for undertaking further studies !!!.

 

[johntea]

‘Tickets are unavailable on this train due to the RMT’

Eh? I’m sure that excuse would go down great with a revenue protection officer!

 

[Moonshot]

‘Tickets are unavailable on this train due to the RMT’

Eh? I’m sure that excuse would go down great with a revenue protection officer!

Staguard

 

[Moonshot]

Staguard

‘Tickets are unavailable on this train due to the RMT’

Eh? I’m sure that excuse would go down great with a revenue protection officer!

‘Tickets are unavailable on this train due to the RMT’

Eh? I’m sure that excuse would go down great with a revenue protection officer!

Stand in guards are not selling tickets on trains

 

[woodmally]

Why have they suspended the strike on South West Trains. Will this have an impact on Northern?

 

[northwichcat]

I detest the likes of Deliveroo who has given their permanent staff a huge bonus but their “independent contractors” who have arguably done the most amount of work for the company are getting didily squat! Capitalism at its worst!

If anyone fancies asking the CFO of Deliveroo a question and can be in Manchester on 5th July: https://attending.io/events/manchester-tech-nights-19

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Stand in guards are not selling tickets on trains

Some are - depends on what their day job is.

 

[PHILIPE]

Why have they suspended the strike on South West Trains. Will this have an impact on Northern?

www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/rmt-industrial-action-june

There is also a SWR strike thread. There will be impact on Northern

 

[woodmally]

www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/rmt-industrial-action-june

There is also a SWR strike thread. There will be impact on Northern

Do you think RMT will succeed with South West? If so how surely DOO is written in that contract as well.

 

[northwichcat]

Do you think RMT will succeed with South West? If so how surely DOO is written in that contract as well.

I've done a search on the SWR franchise agreement and there's no mention of Driver Only, DOO, DCO or Driver Controlled.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...rn-railways-2017-rail-franchise-agreement.pdf

 

[woodmally]

I've done a search on the SWR franchise agreement and there's no mention of Driver Only, DOO, DCO or Driver Controlled.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...rn-railways-2017-rail-franchise-agreement.pdf

Thanks for that. It answers my original question about any impact on the Northern situation. There isn't any as its a very different dispute and SW can back down over DOO.

 

[northwichcat]

According to BBC North West Tonight Andy Burnham and Steve Rotheram have asked the RMT to call off tomorrow's and Saturday's strikes. It's really going well for the RMT if a left wing trade unionist in Rotheram is against their industrial action!

 

[hooverboy]

Although I know you detest zero-hours contracts, many people on them find it ideal for undertaking further studies.

in days where we have "this train is cancelled because of a lack of train crew", there should be no place at all for zero-hours contracts.

there should be standby drivers on a rotating roster.
what's more there should be enough drivers to cover mainline ops+standby without asking people to work overtime/rest day.

there should be sufficiently good on-board software on trains to advance indicate speed limits/direction+points changes/signalling/engineering works to make route learning+operation a lot less complicated than it presently is.
Frankly with the likes of uber locating a taxi for you to within the nearest 20m or so ,it's not too much of an ask to have accuracy /frequency of update several orders of magnitude better onboard a train.

800MHz LTE-R is needed for railway comms now.GSM is way too slow for real-time data...it's 20 years out of date!

in an ideal world once you have passed operating a certain type of vehicle you will know the foibles of different types of stock,driven it in various weather conditions etc and the onboard PC can tell you in advance of odd gradients,wheelslip zones etc.

fine if you are not familiar and turn up at the other end 5 minutes late,at least it's still running.better than not at all.

FWIW I would cancel alternating shift patterns too..they are actually very bad for health,and you need drivers to be alert....so stick to a routine.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah, Rotheram and Burnham basically said we have argued your case but enough is enough, this is hurting passengers, call it off.
Union basically replied 'We are pleased our campaign is attracting such powerful political support' totally ignoring the message.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-andy-burnhamsteve-rotheram-statement-on-northern/

 

[CN75]

I've done a search on the SWR franchise agreement and there's no mention of Driver Only, DOO, DCO or Driver Controlled.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...rn-railways-2017-rail-franchise-agreement.pdf

You’ll just find all references to it have been ‘redacted’ in any publically available documents. DOO and what it means on SWR appears to be on page 297. The references to the government underwriting costs associated with strikes will also be redacted.

SWR have contracted when they signed up to run the new trains in line with what they have said publically: they will have a guard on board, but if needs be will run the train with the driver operating it alone. If they do not deliver their contractal agreement about DOO with the DfT, they will have to pay substantial penalties or get their contract amended, or both. Why else go through so many days of strikes?

 

[Robertj21a]

in days where we have "this train is cancelled because of a lack of train crew", there should be no place at all for zero-hours contracts.

there should be standby drivers on a rotating roster.
what's more there should be enough drivers to cover mainline ops+standby without asking people to work overtime/rest day.

there should be sufficiently good on-board software on trains to advance indicate speed limits/direction+points changes/signalling/engineering works to make route learning+operation a lot less complicated than it presently is.
Frankly with the likes of uber locating a taxi for you to within the nearest 20m or so ,it's not too much of an ask to have accuracy /frequency of update several orders of magnitude better onboard a train.

800MHz LTE-R is needed for railway comms now.GSM is way too slow for real-time data...it's 20 years out of date!

in an ideal world once you have passed operating a certain type of vehicle you will know the foibles of different types of stock,driven it in various weather conditions etc and the onboard PC can tell you in advance of odd gradients,wheelslip zones etc.

fine if you are not familiar and turn up at the other end 5 minutes late,at least it's still running.better than not at all.

FWIW I would cancel alternating shift patterns too..they are actually very bad for health,and you need drivers to be alert....so stick to a routine.

As far as I'm aware, there has been no reference to rail staff being on zero hours contracts. My comment merely said that it can help those undertaking further studies.

What on earth software, weather conditions and an on-board PC has to do with my point is totally mystifying !

 

[northwichcat]

Yeah, Rotheram and Burnham basically said we have argued your case but enough is enough, this is hurting passengers, call it off.
Union basically replied 'We are pleased our campaign is attracting such powerful political support' totally ignoring the message.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-andy-burnhamsteve-rotheram-statement-on-northern/

Rotheram/Burnham statement - We're in favour of guards of the train but passengers have suffered enough so call off your strikes and we'll work with you to help resolve the issue.

RMT - Thank you for the support of keeping guards on the train. Northern get round the table and offer us a guard on every service, until that happens we'll keep striking.

 

[woodmally]

It sounds like the RMT are making progress in reading the franchise agreement



https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/northern-taxpayers-will-be-footing-bill-for-strike-action/

I wonder when they'll get to the final page which states each time the RMT mentions the German state the Northern directors get a bonus.

Well that is good. Wonder if the RMT will get down to the part about DOO being in the franchise agreement or are they just being selective as to what they read. Also if they didnt strike us taxpayers would not have to pay out.

 

[northwichcat]

Well that is good. Wonder if the RMT will get down to the part about DOO being in the franchise agreement or are they just being selective as to what they read. Also if they didnt strike us taxpayers would not have to pay out.

Exactly what I was alluding to. The RMT tell us the dispute is with a 'German owned' company and also tell us that it's not the 'German owned' company who suffer if they RMT calls a strike. Therefore, the RMT need to be honest about who they are in dispute with and to take appropriate action - if it's a Conservative led DfT then organise protests outside DfT offices, organise a march etc., just like unions protesting about the government's public sector pay cap have done. If it's the 'German owned' company then they need to come up with an alternative to strike action, as they've found out strike action has no effect on the 'German owned' company.

 

[Journeyman]

Thanks for that. It answers my original question about any impact on the Northern situation. There isn't any as its a very different dispute and SW can back down over DOO.

Didn't SWT many moons ago promise to retain guards in perpetuity? I know it was different owners and probably people who have long since moved on, but that's certainly going to cause problems now.