Incident at Loughborough Junction (18/06)

[Robertj21a]

It seems strange to me that anyone should be expected to express sympathy for dead trespassers they don’t know personally, who may or may not have been graffiti artists, but certainly should not have been on the tracks in the middle of the night.

Sympathy for most people is reserved for those they know personally rather than abstract internet discussions about the actions of strangers. What would be the point of me saying I feel sympathy? It would be completely meaningless and certainly wouldn’t change the results of what happened this morning.

On balance, I have to agree with that.

Like others, I feel great sympathy for any rail staff affected, and the families of those now deceased.

 

[sbt]

If you don't do that then you're at risk of providing a handy way to murder people or dispose of bodies.

Indeed. james Bulger comes to mind - his body was placed on the line in an attempt to cover up the crime. And deliberately pushing someone in front of a train, usually at stations, is hardly rare in the UK and elsewhere. For example Police are currently re-investigating 18 deaths on the tube from the 70's and 80's after allegations that a Serial Killer pushed them to their deaths and a man plead guilty to Attempted Murder by pushing someone under a Tube Train in February of this year.

 

[Crossover]

They are spending time establishing the facts. The most important of these would include who they are, whether they were killed before they got to the track and if not whether they went there of their own volition or were pushed. If you don't do that then you're at risk of providing a handy way to murder people or dispose of bodies. All of the necessary enquiries are done and the site is cleared as quickly as possible. None of this is anything to do with being cruel or otherwise.

Completely agree - at this point in time it is conjecture and indeed there is a possibility that the railways were not directly involved in their demise

 

[BRX]

It seems strange to me that anyone should be expected to express sympathy for dead trespassers they don’t know personally, who may or may not have been graffiti artists, but certainly should not have been on the tracks in the middle of the night.

Sympathy for most people is reserved for those they know personally rather than abstract internet discussions about the actions of strangers. What would be the point of me saying I feel sympathy? It would be completely meaningless and certainly wouldn’t change the results of what happened this morning.

The point is that you did express sympathy, but limited it to rail staff only which implied that you were making a point by specifically excluding others.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

BBC News have reported that the victims were hit by a freight train.

 

[Joe Paxton]

A horrible incident, but also a curious case.

Like others, I shall patiently await the results of the investigation with interest.

 

[Bromley boy]

The point is that you did express sympathy, but limited it to rail staff only which implied that you were making a point by specifically excluding others.

I did, and that remains my view.

It’s regrettable that these individuals came to the sticky end they did, they didn’t deserve to die for their actions, but I cannot truly say I feel any sympathy for people who trespass for nefarious purposes. I’m afraid they died as a result of their own stupidity.

On the other hand I work with a number of operational railstaff who have had to deal with the result of rail fatalities first hand. Nobody goes to work wanting to run someone down, and the psychological fallout can be horrendous. Naturally enough, that’s where my sympathies lie.

In other news, the police have now stated that the deceased were indeed trespassers, not railway workers, so were illegally on the tracks in the first place.

 

[vdriud]

Doesn’t make much difference, does it? Shouldn’t have been there, and I doubt the dead will be prosecuted. Forever innocent in your eyes?

What a very low empathy view of the world.

 

[farleigh]

I did, and that remains my view.


In other news, the police have now stated that the deceased were indeed trespassers, not railway workers, so were illegally on the tracks in the first place.

Oh that's OK then.

 

[BRX]

I’m afraid they died as a result of their own stupidity.

I don't think it's quite as straightforward as that.

But I do of course agree and understand that these incidents have consequences for railway staff, and this shouldn't be forgotten.

 

[Bromley boy]

Oh that's OK then.

It’s not ok by any stretch. If they hadn’t criminally trespassed in the first place we would now have:

1. One less traumatised driver;
2. Several less traumatised cleanup staff;
3. Three less dead trespassers.

It’s their own bloody fault I’m afraid.

One of my colleagues witnessed one of the bodies being taken out via Brixton station this morning, just before he discharged a load of passengers. It didn’t exactly brighten his working day.

Give it up.

I’m not going to comment any further on this thread as it’s starting to seriously wind me up.

 

[Ambient Sheep]

Completely agree - at this point in time it is conjecture and indeed there is a possibility that the railways were not directly involved in their demise

Yup, for although the answer will indeed probably turn out to be the obvious one, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that it could be some kind of gangland killing. For example with drugged victims marched/carried onto the tracks with spray cans planted on them to make it look like the obvious and discourage further investigation. Unlikely I know, but not impossible.

 

[bnm]

Sympathies for all concerned.

The deceased, their families, the railway staff involved, and the emergency services.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

What a very low empathy view of the world.

Empathy?

Ever been confronted by individuals like this, intent on “ Tagging “ whilst putting not only their lives but also the lives of railway workers / BTP, etc, at risk trying to prevent them? Physically confronted by them? You’d change your tune if you had, perhaps. Or maybe not.

Attempting to chase them off, but then being threatened with violence because they haven’t had time to photograph their handiwork to display on social media acceptable to you?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Empathy?

Ever been confronted by individuals like this, intent on “ Tagging “ whilst putting not only their lives but also the lives of railway workers / BTP, etc, at risk trying to prevent them? Physically confronted by them? You’d change your tune if you had, perhaps. Or maybe not.

Attempting to chase them off, but then being threatened with violence because they haven’t had time to photograph their handiwork to display on social media acceptable to you?

Not all taggers or graffitists are the same or behave the same by any stretch.

 

[bb21]

BBC News have reported that the victims were hit by a freight train.

They are quite careful with their wording. What they reported is:

It is believed the victims could have been struck overnight, when freight trains use the rail network more frequently as the passenger pathways are clear.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44520759

No conclusion has been reached yet.

 

[father_jack]

Empathy?

Ever been confronted by individuals like this, intent on “ Tagging “ whilst putting not only their lives but also the lives of railway workers / BTP, etc, at risk trying to prevent them? Physically confronted by them? You’d change your tune if you had, perhaps. Or maybe not.

Attempting to chase them off, but then being threatened with violence because they haven’t had time to photograph their handiwork to display on social media acceptable to you?

Best post on this thread.

But it will mean nothing to most.

What they do/did is allowed to be acceptable and that's why three people are dead tonight.

 

[swj99]

In what way is it incorrect? Unless they were track workers then they were committing a criminal offence of trespassing on the railways thus making them by definition criminals...

It is incorrect. Criminals are people who either admit, or are found guilty of a criminal offence. On the basis that the people in question are dead, they are neither in a position to admit to any criminal offence, or be convicted of one.

Doesn’t make much difference, does it? Shouldn’t have been there, and I doubt the dead will be prosecuted. Forever innocent in your eyes?

And in the eyes of the law too.

A criminal is someone convicted of a crime. Innocent until proven guilty.

Yes. And in a similar way to how Jimmy Savile is not a criminal because he was never convicted of any offences, and because we don't put dead people on trial, the 3 people who died in this unfortunate incident will remain innocent.

 

[GB]

The point is that you did express sympathy, but limited it to rail staff only which implied that you were making a point by specifically excluding others.

So? Why is it so hard to understand not everyone feels sympathy for everyone in every circumstance?

 

[SPADTrap]

So? Why is it so hard to understand not everyone feels sympathy for everyone in every circumstance?

Because they likely have no experience of what they're commenting on, don't let it get to you.

 

[broadgage]

Until such time as the coroner issues his/her inquest verdict.

Coroners inquests seldom go into much detail. I consider it very probable that the coroners inquest will record "death by misadventure" and thereby confirm that it was not murder or suicide.
Murder seems improbable in this case, but the police and the coroner must investigate just in case.
Suicide likewise seems very unlikely, but again the police and court system will need to investigate and ascertain the facts.

From what is known so far it seems likely that the deceased were struck by a freight train. Since AFAIK no driver has reported such an incident, I consider it probable that they were not struck head on by the locomotive. A side swipe collision between say a container and the deceased seems likely.
That might leave little or no trace on the container, which could be one of dozens or hundreds now dispersed to numerous differing locations.

Depending on the number of freight trains that passed the point, we may never know which train was involved.

 

[Antman]

Empathy?

Ever been confronted by individuals like this, intent on “ Tagging “ whilst putting not only their lives but also the lives of railway workers / BTP, etc, at risk trying to prevent them? Physically confronted by them? You’d change your tune if you had, perhaps. Or maybe not.

Attempting to chase them off, but then being threatened with violence because they haven’t had time to photograph their handiwork to display on social media acceptable to you?

They all behave like that do they? Probably not!

Nobody is condoning graffiti, assuming that's what they were doing, but suggesting they deserved to die is just ridiculous.

Could it be that it will never be known which particular train hit them? Any drivers who were in the vicinity must be wondering if it was them, not a nice thought but obviously no blame whatsoever attached to them. My thoughts go out to everyone involved.

 

[BRX]

So? Why is it so hard to understand not everyone feels sympathy for everyone in every circumstance?

I don't expect "everyone to feel sympathy for everyone in every circumstance".
I'd find it a bit hard to understand why someone would not have any sympathy for someone whose 19 year old son had just been killed, which is what the wording of the post suggested. But, I don't actually believe that's the reality and think that the wording of the post most likely came out of anger about the impact of these incidents on railway staff, which I find entirely understandable.

 

[the Rat]

This thread is a pefect microcosm of the sad way debate is conducted these days.

There was a day when 2 people could have opposing opinions and rub along quite easily, accepting that differences in viewpoint are common, natural and often make the world a more interesting place.

Nowadays we have entered an Orwellian nightmare where everyone has an opinion and will not tolerate anyone else disagreeing with their personal 'party line'. It's taken as a peronal affront, as an insult. Social media has given anyone who wants it a platform to speak out and many take this as an endorsement of the point they are making.

Opinions are not facts so its absolutely pointless arguing that a person has no right to hold them. Nothing wrong with expressing opinions but realise that they are just that...opinions.

End of lecture, but I hate to see a thread needlessly degenerate into pointless bickering.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

From what is known so far it seems likely that the deceased were struck by a freight train.

If the third rail was live, electrocution was also a possibility.

 

[Antman]

If the third rail was live, electrocution was also a possibility.

Police have stated that injuries were consistent with having been hit by a train.

 

[talltim]

Been reported elsewhere that the train in question has been found (a Networker)

 

[221129]

Police have stated that injuries were consistent with having been hit by a train.

Again that doesn't mean they were killed by a train.

 

[Antman]

Again that doesn't mean they were killed by a train.

No they MAY have been murdered and their bodies put there to make it look like that, unlikely but a possibility.

 

[mallard]

No they MAY have been murdered and their bodies put there to make it look like that, unlikely but a possibility.

Or they could have been electrocuted and then hit by a train post-mortem. It would likely take a coroner's examination to rule that out.