EMT rolling stock woes

[mallard]

Apologies if there's a better thread/section for this...

As a regular commuter on East Midlands Trains, it seems to be that they're having severe problems fielding enough rolling stock to maintain their sevices (particularly, but not exclusively, HST services) and have been since at least the end of last year.

For example, in the past week I've personally seen:

• A 222 substituting for HST
• A short-formed (7 carriages; missing a TS) HST
• A VTEC buffet car in an EMT HST
• A set with coach (standard-class) coach "D" replaced by a TF with no signage indicating declassification (people who listened carefully to EMT's rediculous rambling on-train annoucements will have heard coach D included in the list of standard-class carriages, but that's the only indication I saw/heard anywhere)
• A 222 substituting for a 15x on an "Ivanhoe" service

I can't be the only one thinking that this is an absolute shambles. When I first started to notice issues at the end of last year (November) I assumed it was a temporary thing, but 8 months later and with the addition of extra stock in the form of the ex-GC 6-coach HST sets, little seems to have changed.

The regular use of TFs in place of TSs without signage (occasionally I've seen some attempt at signage, such as a poorly photocopied A4 sign placed in the magazine rack at one end of the carriage, but that's clearly inadequate) is particularly concerning, since it's effectively the same as short-forming, with the added "benefit" that premium-paying first-class passengers unknowingly sit in the carriage and end up with a lesser service (no complimentaries, etc.). Surely the operator should be treating the highest-paying passengers with some modicum of respect?

So what is going on with the HSTs? Is EMT genuinely short on stock (maybe because they've "given away" 2 sets over the course of the franchise...)? Or are they cutting back on maintenance? Is it due to the fact that the franchise should have ended by now and they were planning on leaving jobs for the next franchisee?

The use of 222s on local services is less concerning (except where they can't keep to timetables because they don't qualify for "Sprinter" differential speed limits) and is probably an "upgrade" as far as passengers are concerned, but it's still a symptom of a franchise-wide rolling stock shortage.

 

[cactustwirly]

Apologies if there's a better thread/section for this...

As a regular commuter on East Midlands Trains, it seems to be that they're having severe problems fielding enough rolling stock to maintain their sevices (particularly, but not exclusively, HST services) and have been since at least the end of last year.

For example, in the past week I've personally seen:

• A 222 substituting for HST
• A short-formed (7 carriages; missing a TS) HST
• A VTEC buffet car in an EMT HST
• A set with coach (standard-class) coach "D" replaced by a TF with no signage indicating declassification (people who listened carefully to EMT's rediculous rambling on-train annoucements will have heard coach D included in the list of standard-class carriages, but that's the only indication I saw/heard anywhere)
• A 222 substituting for a 15x on an "Ivanhoe" service

I can't be the only one thinking that this is an absolute shambles. When I first started to notice issues at the end of last year (November) I assumed it was a temporary thing, but 8 months later and with the addition of extra stock in the form of the ex-GC 6-coach HST sets, little seems to have changed.

The regular use of TFs in place of TSs without signage (occasionally I've seen some attempt at signage, such as a poorly photocopied A4 sign placed in the magazine rack at one end of the carriage, but that's clearly inadequate) is particularly concerning, since it's effectively the same as short-forming, with the added "benefit" that premium-paying first-class passengers unknowingly sit in the carriage and end up with a lesser service (no complimentaries, etc.). Surely the operator should be treating the highest-paying passengers with some modicum of respect?

So what is going on with the HSTs? Is EMT genuinely short on stock (maybe because they've "given away" 2 sets over the course of the franchise...)? Or are they cutting back on maintenance? Is it due to the fact that the franchise should have ended by now and they were planning on leaving jobs for the next franchisee?

The use of 222s on local services is less concerning (except where they can't keep to timetables because they don't qualify for "Sprinter" differential speed limits) and is probably an "upgrade" as far as passengers are concerned, but it's still a symptom of a franchise-wide rolling stock shortage.

They shouldn't be short on HSTs as only 6 of the 11 HSTs are out during the day, and aother 2 are stabled at Cricklewood during the day, only working 2 peak time services.
The Ex GC HSTs are also very lightly diagrammed, so the diagrams could be extended to cover some more services if EMT chose to.

 

[LowLevel]

The HSTs are having life extension work (for example they've had the windows replaced with laminated ones and a bodywork exam) hence the shortage of individual carriages. They're also prone to failure sadly due to things like air system faults.

15x shortage is more critical. That's why the 222/4 runs on Lincoln trains on a Monday and Friday to allow Liverpool and Skegness services a better chance of being fully formed. It makes no timing difference. 15x shortage is due to refurb work and intensive diagramming exacerbating the effect of train faults. An additional 4 153s arrive from GWR next month to help.

Not posting declassification notices on the HST sets is rather poor.

40751 is an EMT buffet car or rather an ex EMT buffet given a light refurbishment to VTEC spec. It replaced a VTEC spec surplus buffet that was previously on hire long term to give a more uniform fleet. Hence it's in VTEC livery.

The extra HSTs were simply to make the timetables and diagrams work due to Thameslink. They're not ideal and only limited crews sign them due to a number of differences but mainly their door systems being non standard.

 

[43096]

They shouldn't be short on HSTs as only 6 of the 11 HSTs are out during the day, and aother 2 are stabled at Cricklewood during the day, only working 2 peak time services.
The Ex GC HSTs are also very lightly diagrammed, so the diagrams could be extended to cover some more services if EMT chose to.

I’m not sure where you are getting your numbers from...
EMT have 9 8-car HSTs of which 8 are diagrammed each weekday with three at Cricklewood between the peaks.
The three ex-GC sets have two diagrams, with the third set currently at Neville Hill for overhaul/internal work.

 

[cactustwirly]

I’m not sure where you are getting your numbers from...
EMT have 9 8-car HSTs of which 8 are diagrammed each weekday with three at Cricklewood between the peaks.
The three ex-GC sets have two diagrams, with the third set currently at Neville Hill for overhaul/internal work.

This:
http://www.125group.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/HST-Diags-EMT.pdf

EMT have 22 powercars (NL based) which is surely 11 HST sets? Unless 2 HST sets have magically dissapeared since the May timetable change.
The HST diagrams are very wasteful, if there was actually a shortage (or if EMT could be bothered) they could use the 3x sets at CW to cover for the shortage.
Then they could even use the ex GC sets more often, maybe proper diagrams not just a half arsed service that is used currently

 

[cactustwirly]

Anyway, I agree with @mallard, when I've seen the declassified set, all the standard class coaches have been heaving, almost standing room only. The TF in coach D has been empty, with no notices about declassification and no announcements whatsoever that it's been declassified!

I'm looking forwards to 2019, when hopefully Stagecoach lose the franchise, and we get a franchisee that actually cares about its passengers, not just the maximum profit it can milk!

 

[43096]

This:
http://www.125group.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/HST-Diags-EMT.pdf

Those are the diagrams before the May timetable change, though the number of diagrams for the 8-car sets remains unchanged at 8.

EMT have 22 powercars (NL based) which is surely 11 HST sets? Unless 2 HST sets have magically dissapeared since the May timetable change.

VTEC have 34 power cars, "surely" they have 17 sets. GWR had 119 power cars, "surely" they have 59.5 sets.

No in all cases. Every TOC has more power cars than 2 x number of sets because power cars require more maintenance than the trailers - a fact recognised by BR when it built spare power cars.
VTEC have 15 sets of trailers. EMT have 9 sets of trailers (before the GC sets arrived).

 

[43096]

I'm looking forwards to 2019, when hopefully Stagecoach lose the franchise, and we get a franchisee that actually cares about its passengers, not just the maximum profit it can milk!

I hope they retain it a) because they have generally done a good job with EMT (and more generally with their franchises) and b) because it will annoy you!!!!!!

 

[cactustwirly]

I hope they retain it a) because they have generally done a good job with EMT (and more generally with their franchises) and b) because it will annoy you!!!!!!

No they've been pretty average tbh, the Intercity service is a time warp back to 2007.
Maybe you should get out more and try TOCs like GA and GWR and compare their service to EMT.

 

[tbtc]

15x shortage is due to refurb work and intensive diagramming exacerbating the effect of train faults. An additional 4 153s arrive from GWR next month to help

That seems to answer the concerns. Some trains are being refurbished, some additional trains are on their way, this is just a blip (which the TOC has tried to advertise to passengers so that they are aware of short formations). Not perfect, but coming to the end of a long franchise that has been kicked down the road by the Government, I'm not expecting them to go out and order new trains.

A 222 substituting for an HST might be poor for some passengers but compared to the kind of substitutions that other TOCs make, hardly the end of the world - VT sometimes have five coach Voyagers substituting for nine/eleven coach 390s, GWR have well documented issues with five coach IET running in place of full length HSTs (whilst staff are trained and new IET come into service), ATW run 150s from Cardiff to Manchester at times and as for passengers on Northern...

Some people should be careful what they wish for, when it comes to replacements!

 

[43096]

No they've been pretty average tbh, the Intercity service is a time warp back to 2007.
Maybe you should get out more and try TOCs like GA and GWR and compare their service to EMT.

Last time I used GA the train I wanted was cancelled. As for GWR: an utterly appalling operator in almost every way. EMT way superior. And before you start with your patronising nonsense again, I’ve used all three in the last few weeks.

 

[nat67]

The regular use of TFs in place of TSs without signage (occasionally I've seen some attempt at signage, such as a poorly photocopied A4 sign placed in the magazine rack at one end of the carriage, but that's clearly inadequate) is particularly concerning, since it's effectively the same as short-forming, with the added "benefit" that premium-paying first-class passengers unknowingly sit in the carriage and end up with a lesser service (no complimentaries, etc.). Surely the operator should be treating the highest-paying passengers with some modicum of respect?

EMT only have one spare TS which is 42384 and two spare TF's 41063 and 41113 and a TGS 44071.

EMT way superior.

What with the way they ching you for a ticket in that the prices are ridiculously expensive or that fact a 5/7 car Meridian crap replaces an 8 coach HST with VP185's yes very superior unlike VT who are always superior.

 

[mushroomchow]

It's not great, is it?

The Ivanhoe one and the VTEC buffet have been long-standing now - the 222 runs peak services for extra seats as it can operate doors on specific carriages - otherwise they'd have to work on 1-door only operation with Sprinters due to the numerous short platforms. I think it also has something to do with releasing a 156 to strengthen the Norwich-Liverpool service which is otherwise in the hands of 158s.

The buffet has been in operation for months now - they simply don't have the time or resources to get it in for repainting.

I do find it surprising how regularly EMT loan out their HST fleet to other operators given it's already stretched so thinly on their own services. There's a disaster fast-approaching if they really are sidelined by RVAR in 18 months' time. They must surely be in line for an exemption, because I actually think the franchise operation would collapse without them available.

I simply hope and pray that the answer in the new franchise is not to cascade Voyagers, because I would rather drive to most destinations and pay for fuel and parking than endure them on a regular basis.

Despite all this, I do think EMT run a bloody good service given the constraints and aging fleet they operate with. They're not perfect, but compared to others they're doing well in tough circumstances. I hope Stagecoach retain the franchise and get the opportunity to update and expand the fleet.

 

[Domh245]

I simply hope and pray that the answer in the new franchise is not to cascade Voyagers, because I would rather drive to most destinations and pay for fuel and parking than endure them on a regular basis.

Despite all this, I do think EMT run a bloody good service given the constraints and aging fleet they operate with. They're not perfect, but compared to others they're doing well in tough circumstances. I hope Stagecoach retain the franchise and get the opportunity to update and expand the fleet.

The good news is that the ITT calls for new bi-modal stock, the question however is if it is just for HST replacement, or for wholesale Intercity fleet replacement (noting that the bi-modes are required to have 222 like performance away from the wires)

Agree on the last point. They aren't fantastic, but very few franchises are, and when it is a franchise that has been limping along on a direct award for almost 3 years with very little investment or direction from the DfT (as is the case at GWR), you won't get much better from any other operator.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

To be honest, the chances of a 222 substituting for an HST or a 15x is very rare. Certainly a 222 in place of a 75mph / 90mph train means faster acceleration and good thinking.

From looking at Twitter, EMT are keeping the 4-coach Class 222's for off-peak services. Perhaps use one of these to replace a 1 or 2 coach 15x on a Leicester to Lincoln service - freeing around another 75 - 150 seats for one of the Norwich services!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Slight correction - it is good thinking but it means shorter journey times!

 

[mallard]

Slight correction - it is good thinking but it means shorter journey times!

The timetable is written for 15x units, so, even if there are no "Sprinter" differential speeds on the route (which 222s don't qualify for, so would have to go at a slower speed) a 222 would, at best, just wait around at stations longer to keep to the timetable. For the most part, it'll just trundle along at the same speed as a 15x would.

Agree on the last point. They aren't fantastic, but very few franchises are, and when it is a franchise that has been limping along on a direct award for almost 3 years with very little investment or direction from the DfT (as is the case at GWR), you won't get much better from any other operator.

While I'd completely agree that EMT aren't the worst operator out there, I don't think they've done anything to put them above "average" over the last few years. Long gone are the "Red Dot Days" and bargain Advance fares (I remember when it was possible to find a first-class Advance to London in the evening for under £30, these days even the standard-class Adavances are barely cheaper than the Super Off-Peak). Even the ever-vocal and well-funded EMT marketing department has clearly run out of ideas and resorted to advertising basic long-standing fares policies (under 5s travel free) as though they're EMT initiatives.

Their sister operator over on the West Coast has also been under "direct award" for an absolutely absurd length of time, yet hasn't suspended attempts at improving services, so that's no excuse.

I mean, it's not as though HST sets are reformed every day; how hard can it be to stick a few "this carriage is for standard-class passengers" stickers in prominent places when a TF substitutes for a TS?

 

[cactustwirly]

The timetable is written for 15x units, so, even if there are no "Sprinter" differential speeds on the route (which 222s don't qualify for, so would have to go at a slower speed) a 222 would, at best, just wait around at stations longer to keep to the timetable. For the most part, it'll just trundle along at the same speed as a 15x would.



While I'd completely agree that EMT aren't the worst operator out there, I don't think they've done anything to put them above "average" over the last few years. Long gone are the "Red Dot Days" and bargain Advance fares (I remember when it was possible to find a first-class Advance to London in the evening for under £30, these days even the standard-class Adavances are barely cheaper than the Super Off-Peak). Even the ever-vocal and well-funded EMT marketing department has clearly run out of ideas and resorted to advertising basic long-standing fares policies (under 5s travel free) as though they're EMT initiatives.

Their sister operator over on the West Coast has also been under "direct award" for an absolutely absurd length of time, yet hasn't suspended attempts at improving services, so that's no excuse.

I mean, it's not as though HST sets are reformed every day; how hard can it be to stick a few "this carriage is for standard-class passengers" stickers in prominent places when a TF substitutes for a TS?

Especially when said TF has been running around since September!

 

[Great_Western]

Out of interest, has a 15X ever ended up working down towards London? Is that theoretically possible to occur?

 

[cactustwirly]

Out of interest, has a 15X ever ended up working down towards London? Is that theoretically possible to occur?

No and No, different sets of drivers/guards and I don't think 15xs are cleared that far anyway.

 

[mallard]

Out of interest, has a 15X ever ended up working down towards London? Is that theoretically possible to occur?

Probably not what you meant, but the Class 150 prototype did visit St. Pancras on a demonstration run in 1984. Presumably it travelled direct from Derby where it was built/based via the MML. Due to the similarity between the Cl150 and the Cl317 units that were operating the Bed-Pan service at the time, clearance south of Bedford shouldn't have been a problem. Since the Cl319s are also based on the same bodyshell, I wouldn't be too surprised if clearance was still possible today.

Looking at the sectional appendix, there does indeed appear to be clearance for 15x units over most, if not all, of the MML.

 

[The_Engineer]

Out of interest, has a 15X ever ended up working down towards London? Is that theoretically possible to occur?

The prototype three car Class 150s used to do mileage accumulation runs from Derby to St Pancras and back overnight for a while when new; I also THINK that new Class 150/1 2-car units did a similar mileage accumulation/shake down runs before going into service, but might have been only Derby to Leicester. I had a house at Sileby at the time, in view and earshot of the MML, so used to see/hear all this going on!

 

[43074]

My biggest gripe at the moment is the dip in Mainline punctuality since the timetable change, but then again that's almost to be expected given the Thameslink issues at the moment and nowhere near as bad as it is elsewhere. As far as the stock is concerned I'd echo the sentiment that they do a decent job with what they have, clearly there's a shortage both on Mainline and local routes which is far from ideal but again that's not necessarily their fault.

Out of interest, has a 15X ever ended up working down towards London? Is that theoretically possible to occur?

A few years ago a pair of 156s worked the Kettering to Sheffield service (used to split from the 1700 from St Pancras, now standalone...) in place of the usual 222 but its only happened the once.

 

[Ianno87]

Out of interest, has a 15X ever ended up working down towards London? Is that theoretically possible to occur?

In BR days (late 80s) I believw there was a daily Manchester<>Leicester<>Bedford sprinter service.

 

[childwallblues]

156s (and sometimes 153s) regularly substitute for 158s on NOT-LIV portions of LIV-NRW services.

 

[LowLevel]

It's not great, is it?

The Ivanhoe one and the VTEC buffet have been long-standing now - the 222 runs peak services for extra seats as it can operate doors on specific carriages - otherwise they'd have to work on 1-door only operation with Sprinters due to the numerous short platforms. I think it also has something to do with releasing a 156 to strengthen the Norwich-Liverpool service which is otherwise in the hands of 158s.

The buffet has been in operation for months now - they simply don't have the time or resources to get it in for repainting.

I do find it surprising how regularly EMT loan out their HST fleet to other operators given it's already stretched so thinly on their own services. There's a disaster fast-approaching if they really are sidelined by RVAR in 18 months' time. They must surely be in line for an exemption, because I actually think the franchise operation would collapse without them available.

I simply hope and pray that the answer in the new franchise is not to cascade Voyagers, because I would rather drive to most destinations and pay for fuel and parking than endure them on a regular basis.

Despite all this, I do think EMT run a bloody good service given the constraints and aging fleet they operate with. They're not perfect, but compared to others they're doing well in tough circumstances. I hope Stagecoach retain the franchise and get the opportunity to update and expand the fleet.

If you read the post I made above regarding the 222 and buffet you'll find the actual reason - the 222 is used on that route because it happens to be one 222s are passed for without causing timing issues. Nothing to do with peak capacity or SDO which is of little help when most stations have short platforms and people have to pile in the front 2 coaches, the buffet bar door not opening as a passenger door causes dwell delays etc. If those trains could go back to a 2 car 15x immediately then they would as the manning costs are huge - 2 rostered drivers and guards.

The buffet is technically on lease to VTEC and continues to be fitted with their mods like the seat reservation screens - it's not being painted as far as I know.