Future of Wrexham-Bidston line, inc. possible franchise swap etc.

[Bovverboy]

With modern signalling constraints IE double blocking at certain signals etc the loop can't actually take much more than it does now without having a severe effect on existing services.

The Chester, West Kirby, and New Brighton services between them mean an EMU is going around the loop every five minutes. The Ellesmere Ports are additional. That to me implies that the capacity of the loop is at least 24tph, or a train every two and a half minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you took this approach, for the extra distance involved, Shotton would be a better change point given the extra connections available. (Though by circumscribing Merseyrail's field of operation so tightly, you end up.with orphan services like Ormskirk-Preston and Kirkby-Wigan which are too far from other major cities for anyone else to bother with.)

To me an interchange at Burscough Bridge is the best thing to do with the West Lancashire lines, as it would also give quality connections to Southport and Manchester. Kirkby-Wigan (and Skem) might as well go through - the Kirkby branch is a bit of an operational inconvenience for Northern - same with Ellesmere Port-Helsby.

Wrexham does seem a bit of an oddity in all this. It's a long way to run through off Merseyrail and wouldn't be dissimilar to extending from Hunts Cross to Manchester (I can see a case for going to Warrington Central but not beyond). Perhaps the idea of running a dedicated service into James St P2 (with a lift fitted) is indeed the way to go.

 

[B&I]

To me an interchange at Burscough Bridge is the best thing to do with the West Lancashire lines, as it would also give quality connections to Southport and Manchester. Kirkby-Wigan (and Skem) might as well go through - the Kirkby branch is a bit of an operational inconvenience for Northern - same with Ellesmere Port-Helsby.

Wrexham does seem a bit of an oddity in all this. It's a long way to run through off Merseyrail and wouldn't be dissimilar to extending from Hunts Cross to Manchester (I can see a case for going to Warrington Central but not beyond). Perhaps the idea of running a dedicated service into James St P2 (with a lift fitted) is indeed the way to go.

I see your point, and a line needs to be drawn somewhere, but Ormskirk - Preston seems as much of an inconvenience to Northern as Kirkby - Wallgate. Plus, a lot of work would need to be done to improve Wigan - Southport before an interchange at Burscough Bridge could be said to provide a good quality connection to Southport.

Also, I'd rather see Merseyrail take over stoppers to Warringtons Central (as long as infrastructure work is done to enable a frequent reliable service), and ultimately work around Edge Hill to incorporate all the current stopping trains from Lime Street high level into Merseyrail (to enable sufficient capacity for a decent range of long distance services, if nothing else).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge isn't as much of an inconvenience because it's an easy single unit hourly shuttle (and that fits with the bulk of the demand), easy to run self contained and likely to be very punctual and reliable.

I think 2tph Burscough to Southport is a decent enough connection?

Anyway this has nowt to do with Bidston-Wrexham

 

[urbophile]

If you took this approach, for the extra distance involved, Shotton would be a better change point given the extra connections available. (Though by circumscribing Merseyrail's field of operation so tightly, you end up.with orphan services like Ormskirk-Preston and Kirkby-Wigan which are too far from other major cities for anyone else to bother with.)

It's difficult to see any advantage in extending Merseyrail much further out than the current city region boundary. Through trains to Preston or Wigan via the above routes would be much slower than the alternative mainline services. The advantage of a frequent all-stops service would be outweighed for longer-distance travellers by the tedious journey (and the lack of loos!). Chester and Southport are already a long way from Liverpool city centre and ideally would be served by semi-fast or skip-stop services. I know that Wrexham isn't the heart of Snowdonia but it is not really Merseyside suburbia either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's difficult to see any advantage in extending Merseyrail much further out than the current city region boundary. Through trains to Preston or Wigan via the above routes would be much slower than the alternative mainline services. The advantage of a frequent all-stops service would be outweighed for longer-distance travellers by the tedious journey (and the lack of loos!). Chester and Southport are already a long way from Liverpool city centre and ideally would be served by semi-fast or skip-stop services. I know that Wrexham isn't the heart of Snowdonia but it is not really Merseyside suburbia either.

It isn't about providing Liverpool to Preston services, it's about providing for services from south west Lancashire to its surrounds. A direct West Lancashire to Preston service could take quite a lot of cars off the A59.

 

[urbophile]

It isn't about providing Liverpool to Preston services, it's about providing for services from south west Lancashire to its surrounds. A direct West Lancashire to Preston service could take quite a lot of cars off the A59.

It already exists: Ormskirk to Preston! If it's not about Liverpool then let West Lancashire lobby for a better service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It already exists: Ormskirk to Preston! If it's not about Liverpool then let West Lancashire lobby for a better service.

I'm talking about Aughton Park, Town Green and to a fair extent all the way down to about the Old Roan and Aintree. And Burscough to Liverpool too.

Liverpool is not an island; it is an important part of the North West conurbation (the Liverpool-Preston-Manchester triangle, as I've been known to call it), and that area requires (and largely has) a web of connectivity, not just to the nearest big city. It's more like the Netherlands than the South East of England in its travel needs. The layout of the motorways and major A roads around there are a big clue.

 

[frodshamfella]

When the Halton curve opens it will make possible through trains between North Wales and Liverpool Lime Street. Merseyrail is essentially, and works best as, an inner-suburban/urban metro system. Wouldn't the best way to deal with Bidston-Wrexham be to electrify as far as Heswall or Neston (the limit of suburban Merseyside) and integrate that part of the line into the Wirral line at Merseyrail frequencies? The reminder of the line would then work more effectively, and possibly at a 30 minute frequency, as a connecting shuttle.

But would this length of service be much different than Hunts Cross to Southport ? I think a through service is still a good Idea as you have people changing again.

 

[PR1Berske]

Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge isn't as much of an inconvenience because it's an easy single unit hourly shuttle (and that fits with the bulk of the demand), easy to run self contained and likely to be very punctual and reliable.

I think 2tph Burscough to Southport is a decent enough connection?

Anyway this has nowt to do with Bidston-Wrexham

If I can't find a relevant thread to reawaken, I might start a new "Merseyrail, Ormskirk and Wigan" thread

 

[B&I]

It already exists: Ormskirk to Preston! If it's not about Liverpool then let West Lancashire lobby for a better service.

These services are 'about Liverpool'. The better connected the city is, the more its economy will grow (though I think Merseyrail should be promoted as serving other surrounding places and not just as a Liverpool commuter railway). Even if services on the routes in question are slower than existing ones (and I'm not sure that would be the case with Preston, if electric trains operated via Ormskirk), the alternative route provision would still improve connectivity

 

[frodshamfella]

Surely all these odd termination stations need to go, they are nonsensical really. So Kirby train should terminate at Wigan ( and include Skem) Ormskirk should run to Preston, Ellesmere Port go down to Helsby and Wreham to Bidston into Liverpool Central. You then have much greater onward connection possibilities and the intermediate stations on the Northern /arriva Wales services get a much more usable and attractive service, with the hopeful car use reductions as a result.

 

[8H]

Surely all these odd termination stations need to go, they are nonsensical really. So Kirby train should terminate at Wigan ( and include Skem) Ormskirk should run to Preston, Ellesmere Port go down to Helsby and Wreham to Bidston into Liverpool Central. You then have much greater onward connection possibilities and the intermediate stations on the Northern /arriva Wales services get a much more usable and attractive service, with the hopeful car use reductions as a result.

YES !!

 

[D60]

Connectivity, connecting communities with centres of employment, retail etc.. ease of interchange for onward travel.. opportunity for economic growth through connectedness... plus operational advantage...

The presence of stop-blocks at arbitrary locations determined by nothing more meaningful than administrative boundaries.. are a barrier to all of the above...

And the advent of battery/hybrid capability removes previous practical obstacles that extension of 3rd rail would've brought..

 

[Mutant Lemming]

The Wrexham service used to terminate at Birkenhead North (New Brighton on Sundays). Though it may be a bit awkward regards paths re-introducing Birkenhead North as the reversing point gives flexibility particularly if running late. Wrexham passengers would seldom have to wait long for a Liverpool connection at North with double the number of services passing through..

 

[michael74]

One of the first rules of planning – how to delay/defer certain tasks so that you can tackle various big jobs at once.



If you can wait for a route to be electrified at the same time as renewing the signals then that’s the perfect time to remodel a junction or build an additional couple of platforms. Doing everything at once is much easier than piecemeal upgrades. Sometimes that means a temporary bodge so that something can have another five years life squeezed out of it so that it’s ready for renewal at the same time as something else.



If you want to give the Borderlands branchline to Merseyrail, in the first instance you give it separate stock to the rest of the W&B franchise, you allow sufficient additional trains to permit a frequency upgrade (so that you can prove whether a “one fast, one slow” approach works)…



…but instead of shelling out on new units with a forty year life ahead of them, you get some redundant stock that can be cheaply tarted up for the next five/ten years, just enough to tide you over until Merseyrail have had their 777s running smoothly so that they are confident about ordering some more of them for the “nice to have” extensions beyond their current borders.



(don’t run before you can walk, don’t try to run round the “loop” just yet, grow the passenger demand gradually, increase the frequency to Bidston with the 230s before you start getting ambitious about a through service to Birkenhead with one additional 230, don’t try running into central Liverpool any time soon)



So, flash forward to the mid 2020s, the Borderlands line has seen enough of a Great Leap Forward in passenger numbers (due to the frequency increase), the next step is a through service to Liverpool, this is just about when the 777s have bedded in and thoughts turn to “should we exercise that option for some more of them and maybe look at extensions beyond Elesmere Port/ Ormskirk etc using bi-mode 778s”.



Hey presto, a through service from Lime Street to Wrexham becomes a cost effective option, given that the figures have been fixed so that the “do nothing” option will require you to order new DMUs to replace the tired 230s – so it becomes cheaper to order a handful of additional 777s from the follow-on order that is happening anyway (than it will be to order a tiny batch of pure-diesel DMUs to replace the microfleet of 230s).



This makes a pleasant change from most “planning” on the fragmented railway – e.g. finding the money from the infrastructure to build a station when there isn’t capacity on the line for sufficient services to stop there (or sufficient seats on the trains that do stop there to attract passengers), because this comes from a different budget to the “operational” one and it’s a case of Spend The Money Now Or Lose It. Hence the reason we build stations like East Midlands Parkway and Low Moor that the TOC can't cope with.



Essentially, its another one of those examples of where temporary trains – the 230s – can be the answer for five/ten years (without the expense of building brand new pure-DMUs that may struggle for a life come the 2030s/2040s) – enough new capacity to get through the squeeze of the medium term and then require replacement once we've made our minds up about "electrification v batteries" in ten years time.

Well said. A slight adjustment of timings and a 230 could run straight into Platform 1 of Birkenhead North and run back out from there, its always seemed madness that they stopped doing it, certainly making life easier for people wanting to get the the Wrexham train from New Brighton, Grove Road or Wallasey Village.

 

[jamesst]

The Chester, West Kirby, and New Brighton services between them mean an EMU is going around the loop every five minutes. The Ellesmere Ports are additional. That to me implies that the capacity of the loop is at least 24tph, or a train every two and a half minutes.

24tph at the very very most. The West Kirby services are generally delayed by the Ellesmere Port services round the loop as it is

 

[michael74]

Given that the 230s are rebuilt London Underground rolling stock, it seems a shame not to leave the collector shoes in place for use to recharge the batteries.

I am by no means knowledgeable but I would imagine that in order to charge the batteries it would have to spend sometime on the 3rd rail, would a 15 minute run around the loop and back be enough. Is there enough room on the chassis for the DC equipment as well as the battery and the diesel engine?

 

[The_Engineer]

I am by no means knowledgeable but I would imagine that in order to charge the batteries it would have to spend sometime on the 3rd rail, would a 15 minute run around the loop and back be enough. Is there enough room on the chassis for the DC equipment as well as the battery and the diesel engine?

Batteries are charged from braking energy and the diesel generated supply. No need for third rail supply.

 

[Bevan Price]

I am by no means knowledgeable but I would imagine that in order to charge the batteries it would have to spend sometime on the 3rd rail, would a 15 minute run around the loop and back be enough. Is there enough room on the chassis for the DC equipment as well as the battery and the diesel engine?

As I commented above, Class 230 are too underpowered to use on the very steep gradients under the River Mersey. They would probably take up to 5 minutes longer round the loop (Hamilton Square to Hamilton Square) than a 507 or 508, with speeds little better than 20 mph on the steepest gradients.

 

[urbophile]

Liverpool is not an island; it is an important part of the North West conurbation (the Liverpool-Preston-Manchester triangle, as I've been known to call it), and that area requires (and largely has) a web of connectivity, not just to the nearest big city. It's more like the Netherlands than the South East of England in its travel needs. The layout of the motorways and major A roads around there are a big clue.

I couldn't agree more. But the way to connect such a large area needs fast (or at least faster) services calling at major centres; while the more local travel needs of the cities concerned demand frequent all-stations 'metro' services. They are not easily compatible: the local stations west of Manchester on the CLC line have a lamentable service because of the lack of capacity for both long-distance and stopping services of any frequency. Quadrupling the track on some of these lines (as has been suggested for Birkenhead - Chester) would help.

 

[thenorthern]

With the Borderlands Line I would think that it would be an aspiration of Merseytravel to have a direct service from Liverpool to Heswall as currently the town is poorly served by rail services compared to most parts of Merseyside.

I can't see the Merseyrail 3rd rail electrification ever being extended now so bi-modes seem the most logical option.

 

[Camden]

Combustion engine based lines around the world continue to be electrified, despite bi-modes being available for some time. The primary driver to electrify is not the lack of alternative.

Bi-modes have gotten this government out of a couple of sticky patches, and now they appear to be their go-to to justify not doing much at all. That's a fad which will pass.

In the meantime, use of bi-modes to extend a line or two in Liverpool would be a good way to get around the reluctance to connect the region, by taking the infrastructure and government largely out of the equation, providing a window of opportunity to demonstrate the benefit of investment.

Extensions of the lines spoken about above is only completing the work that was always intended to happen right from network conception. It is often observed that the network requires subsidy, but that's what happens when you terminate lines at less than half intended length.

The Borderlands T project is interesting, as running into and terminating at James Street should require little more now other than Merseytravel/rail agreement. There don't appear to be many obstacles.

Should a half hourly higher quality direct service prove successful in transforming the lines economics, then what happens to the other lines connecting the various the termini-in-waiting becomes far more about what the city wants for the lines, not what the government want. Calculations based on low inputs that dismiss investment will not stack up against calculations based on real world, evidenced and demonstrated scenarios.

 

[B&I]

Combustion engine based lines around the world continue to be electrified, despite bi-modes being available for some time. The primary driver to electrify is not the lack of alternative.

Bi-modes have gotten this government out of a couple of sticky patches, and now they appear to be their go-to to justify not doing much at all. That's a fad which will pass.

In the meantime, use of bi-modes to extend a line or two in Liverpool would be a good way to get around the reluctance to connect the region, by taking the infrastructure and government largely out of the equation, providing a window of opportunity to demonstrate the benefit of investment.

Extensions of the lines spoken about above is only completing the work that was always intended to happen right from network conception. It is often observed that the network requires subsidy, but that's what happens when you terminate lines at less than half intended length.

The Borderlands T project is interesting, as running into and terminating at James Street should require little more now other than Merseytravel/rail agreement. There don't appear to be many obstacles.

Should a half hourly higher quality direct service prove successful in transforming the lines economics, then what happens to the other lines connecting the various the termini-in-waiting becomes far more about what the city wants for the lines, not what the government want. Calculations based on low inputs that dismiss investment will not stack up against calculations based on real world, evidenced and demonstrated scenarios.

Hopefully this government is also a fad that will pass.

I cannot see why it is not in everyone's interests to promote expansion of Merseyrail to take in all the lines radiating out of Liverpool, as far as major connecting points on mainlines that don't serve Liverpool. I'd suggest that would be as far east as the WCML, as far south as Crewe, and as far west as Wrexham. Additional limited stop trains on many of these lines would be desirable, whether operated by Merseyrail or not, but so ling as infrastructure is in.place there is no reason why these can't run in addition to local stopping services.

Before anyone suggests this is empire-building, I'd make similar suggestion for the other major provincal cities. Northern Rail is an unworkable joke, TfN is toothless, and the only way provincal English cities will see services of the quality their equivalents in other countries enjoy will be if local PTEs, with some actual interest in the places they serve, are put in the driving seat

 

[Bletchleyite]

Connectivity, connecting communities with centres of employment, retail etc.. ease of interchange for onward travel.. opportunity for economic growth through connectedness... plus operational advantage...

The presence of stop-blocks at arbitrary locations determined by nothing more meaningful than administrative boundaries.. are a barrier to all of the above...

To be fair the Ormskirk stop blocks are not at an adminstrative boundary, that's Maghull North - but I do see your point.

 

[Camden]

I'm not sure TfN is toothless. After all, the splitting of the Norwich to Liverpool service will happen despite the previously clear and logical objection at both ends of the line, despite being used by over 6 million people a year, and despite the DfT in the Cross Country consultation admitting that policy is that remapping should only occur when the benefits are overwhelming, due to the cost and disruption of remapping (such benefits being entirely absent from the exercise).

The East Midlands consultation clearly states that the DfT will split this service, and do so in consultation with TfN. Who in turn will rubber stamp the deal and only concern themselves with ensuring that there is overlap for Sheffield.

So Liverpool's previously powerful voice calling for this service to be improved, rather than axed, and any representations made on Warrington's behalf, has been effectively silenced, as now through TfN "the North speaks with one voice".

Completely in a way of no benefit to you, they are far from toothless.

 

[kieron]

Connectivity, connecting communities with centres of employment, retail etc.. ease of interchange for onward travel.. opportunity for economic growth through connectedness... plus operational advantage...

The presence of stop-blocks at arbitrary locations determined by nothing more meaningful than administrative boundaries.. are a barrier to all of the above...

Upton, Meols Cop, Rainford and Halewood are diesel stations in Merseyside. Town Green and Hooton are third rail ones outside. The only place where Merseyrail goes as far as the last station in Merseyside is Liverpool South Parkway, and the line to Runcorn is electrified anyway.

Given this, I'm having a bit of trouble in understanding how exactly your concerns relate to the real world.

 

[Camden]

I believe his point simply is that the network operates in an unfinished state. Which meaningless county the stations lie in can needlessly complicate the process of rectifying that.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well said. A slight adjustment of timings and a 230 could run straight into Platform 1 of Birkenhead North and run back out from there, its always seemed madness that they stopped doing it, certainly making life easier for people wanting to get the the Wrexham train from New Brighton, Grove Road or Wallasey Village.

The Birkenhead North plan needed additional rolling stock.
Cutting back to Bidston made the service work (just) with two units (at 1tph).
If 230s can do the route faster, there might be enough turn-round time to extend to Birkenhead North again - but needs to be proved.
Originally, the LNER/BR service went to Seacombe, but diverted to New Brighton when the Seacombe branch closed (for the Wallasey tunnel access road to be built).

 

[B&I]

The Birkenhead North plan needed additional rolling stock.
Cutting back to Bidston made the service work (just) with two units (at 1tph).
If 230s can do the route faster, there might be enough turn-round time to extend to Birkenhead North again - but needs to be proved.
Originally, the LNER/BR service went to Seacombe, but diverted to New Brighton when the Seacombe branch closed (for the Wallasey tunnel access road to be built).

And perhaps also an issue if sufficient track capacity to be able to turn the trains at Birkenhead North without stymmying through services. But if these problems can be overcome, the attractiveness of journeys from Liverpool / Birkenhead using the Wrexham line would increase greatly.