Route Horsham or Hove abolished

[paul1609]

Not seen it mentioned on here or for that matter on the Southern Website but the tickets from the Southampton and Portsmouth Areas to London via the West Coastway to London Terminals (route Horsham or Hove) were withdrawn on Sunday for the start of the new fares manual.
They have been replaced by a TOC specific "Southern Railway Only" at the same price.
For the passenger this means that the ticket is no longer valid via portsmouth or on Sundays from Cosham and west thereof (until the Southern Sunday service starts).
They would no longer be valid from Epsom or Clapham Junction to Waterloo or from London bridge to City Thameslink or Canon Street.
Presumably the advantage to Southern is they no longer have to share revenue with SWT, FGW and FCC.

 

[theblackwatch]

That is definately a backward step - after the Eastleigh Open Day, I used one of these tickets from Southampton to London on the Sunday (SWT from Southampton to Brighton, Southern to Clapham Junction then SWT to Waterloo). Such a journey would be impossible now...

 

[glynn80]

A shrewd/sneaky move by Southern to gain 100% of the ORCATS revenue rather than sharing a proportion of the ticket sales of said tickets with FGW and SWT.

 

[yorkie]

It's a lot worse than that. You can't excess them!!

Are they allowed to get away with it?

 

[glynn80]

Are they allowed to get away with it?

Yes.

These are not a compulsory inter-available flows, they are additional flows introduced by Southern to compete with the SWT priced Any Permitted flows. Such flows have no DfT regulation which would prevent changes that have been seen in the latest fares round.

 

[Helvellyn]

If you can't excess these tickets, and because they are TOC specific to Southern, I would assume anyone using them on SWT could become liable for a Penalty Fare from Revenue staff?

Guards used to excess the old "Hassocks/Horsham" tickets, so it'll be a new ticket from now on I guess! If the old ticket is suitably endorsed could a refund be claimed (just like if someone is not carrying a Railcard)?

 

[yorkie]

You cannot be Penalty Fared for being 'off route'

 

[paul1609]

A shrewd/sneaky move by Southern to gain 100% of the ORCATS revenue rather than sharing a proportion of the ticket sales of said tickets with FGW and SWT.

Apparently the big loser is FCC especially on tickets from Chichester which is the biggest flow involved as the previous route Horsham/ Hassocks is in fact the shortest route to London. (the any permitted allowed travel via Havant in to Waterloo and was quite a small percentage of Chichester- London tickets).
Another interesting point is that the posters on Southern stations say that these new "southern railway only" tickets are valid on the Gatwick Express. This seems to imply that Southern Daysave tickets should also be valid on the Gatwick Express

 

[yorkie]

Another interesting point is that the posters on Southern stations say that these new "southern railway only" tickets are valid on the Gatwick Express. This seems to imply that Southern Daysave tickets should also be valid on the Gatwick Express

I agree with that. The Gatwick Express website says "© Gatwick Express is operated by Southern". I don't think any court in the land would agree that Gatwick Express is allowed to say that they are operated by Southern on their website and then refuse to accept tickets valid on trains operated by Southern (Disclaimer: My opinion and IANAL ).

Surely this is no different to Stansted Express, it's just a brand name.

 

[glynn80]

You cannot be Penalty Fared for being 'off route'

But the question in this situation is whether travelling on a prohibited TOCs services can be counted as being "off route".

There is definitely a distinction listed in the FRPP when issuing excess fares, whereby you can be excessed if you are off route (i.e. you travelled via London on a Not London fare) but you are forced to purchase a new ticket if you use Train Company-specific tickets on another Train Company's services (i.e you travelled on NXEC with an XC Only fare).

As far as I can tell there does not seem to be any definitive defintion of what being off route entails for penalty fares within either the Penalty Fare Rules or Penalty Fare Policy documents on the DfT website, perhaps an RPI can enlighten us?

 

[yorkie]

I'm sure Tom C replied to say they would charge a new ticket and not a PF. I'd have to do some digging to find the post though...

Update: Found this http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=223743&highlight=penalty+fare+route#post223743 not sure if that is the only reference but the best I can find without spending ages searching. A restricted ticket is not part of the Penalty Fare system.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Strange that arriving at Victoria and asking for SDR to Swanwick on Sunday I was given the Southern Only ticket who do not provide a service to that station on a Sunday.

I had to explain this and ask for SWT's Any Permitted costing an arm & a leg more, which just happened to be the route I was taking.

More pressure put on the ticket staff.....

 

[thefab444]

When are Southern going to start a Sunday service to Southampton? Nothing in for December 2009?

 

[paul1609]

When are Southern going to start a Sunday service to Southampton? Nothing in for December 2009?

I believe that the Sunday service is tied in with the rerouting of the London Victoria to Southampton service via Eastleigh to serve Southampton Airport. This has been an aspiration of Southern for a couple of years but has been opposed by SWT. Final approval was only given with the award of the new franchise back in June and it requires a major timetable change to accommodate and also for Amberley signal box to be open on Sundays.

I think May 10 was the target but it was thought that it might be later than that.