EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Senex]

The 48% who voted remain are still U.K. citizens, so surely they should be in favour of the government negotiating the most favourable possible Brexit deal?

Their opposition to Brexit happening in the first place has nothing to do with their vested interest in getting the best possible deal, surely?

But "best possible" is not necessarily the same as "good". There's certainly a vested interest in attempting to minimise the damage!

 

[Bromley boy]

All well and good in principle, but if those poorly qualified British citizens don't want to do the jobs that EU citizens were doing, eg fruit picking.

Well that in itself is an issue. Beggars can’t be choosers!

There is a significant rump of lazy, long term unemployed people in this country who should be made to work in my opinion.

For a large part of the 48% though, the most favourable deal is to remain, as even staying in the SM & CU post brexit are something of a downgrade if we don't have a voice at the table. It's a bit like asking them to choose between having their left or right leg amputated - they're both pretty rubbish outcomes and I'd personally like to keep both of them.

On this thread we have heard people say Brexit has ruined their lives, made them contemplate suicide, made them prisoners in the U.K., now we hear that it’s equivalent to having a limb amputated! I’ve never heard such hyperbole.

Irrespective of our differing views on whether Brexit should happen at all, the fact remains that we are all in this together as a country. Therefore the government needs to implement the will of the majority by leaving, but needs to negotiate the best possible deal for *all* of us.

 

[Bromley boy]

But "best possible" is not necessarily the same as "good". There's certainly a vested interest in attempting to minimise the damage!

But isn’t that just semantics?!

In this context surely “good”, “least worst”, best possible” etc. all mean the same thing - the best possible (or least damaging etc.) Brexit deal is in all of our interests, remain or leave!

 

[AlterEgo]

All well and good in principle, but if those poorly qualified British citizens don't want to do the jobs that EU citizens were doing, eg fruit picking.

Yep, British people think that kind of work’s too good for them. Someone else can do that, right?

 

[Howardh]

I assume you mean they fly a load of “self employed” Polish workers over to the U.K. and put them to work in the fields for a fraction of what U.K. workers would demand?

That sounds like a prime example of free movement being abused in order to introduce exploitative employment practices!

In theory yes, in practice no as we now see that we can't get our own workforce to do these jobs. Therefore fruit goes rotting in the fields. If Brits were queuing up in the mornings in the fields near leave-voting Boston, I'd bow my cap. But they're not - why not?? They would get the minimum wage by law; same as the Poles, Bulgarians etc.

 

[NSEFAN]

Yep, British people think that kind of work’s too good for them. Someone else can do that, right?

Or a machine, these days.

 

[Bromley boy]

In theory yes, in practice no as we now see that we can't get our own workforce to do these jobs. Therefore fruit goes rotting in the fields. If Brits were queuing up in the mornings in the fields near leave-voting Boston, I'd bow my cap. But they're not

Fundamentally, I agree with you. But if unemployed Brits are turning their noses up at jobs, that is an issue for us as a country to address. The solution shouldn’t be to simply to ship in foreign workers on the cheap to do the jobs Brits refuse to do.

why not?? They would get the minimum wage by law; same as the Poles, Bulgarians etc.

That rather depends on what is happening. It may be that unscrupulous employers are artificially classifying them as “self employed” in order to avoid paying them minimum wage. This would be a highly dubious (and probably illegal) arrangement but one low paid Polish workers would be unlikely to have any ability to challenge.

 

[Domh245]

On this thread we have heard people say Brexit has ruined their lives, made them contemplate suicide, made them prisoners in the U.K., now we hear that it’s equivalent to having a limb amputated! I’ve never heard such hyperbole.

It was a rather poor analogy, granted, but I was trying to make the point that if you were a remainer and were being asked to choose between a hard Brexit or a SM/CU Brexit, both options are rather rubbish and you'd probably prefer neither.

Irrespective of our differing views on whether Brexit should happen at all, the fact remains that we are all in this together as a country. Therefore the government needs to implement the will of the majority by leaving, but needs to negotiate the best possible deal for *all* of us.

It is all well and good saying that we need to "negotiate the best possible deal for *all* of us" but again what is that, and why shouldn't we have a say on it? By all means implement the will of the people, but if for example a third of people feel that a no-deal Hard brexit is best for us, a third decide that some sort of bespoke deal with the EU that allows us to negotiate our own deals whilst retaining most of our existing trade is best, and another third feel that an SM/CU deal would be best, then what do you do? IIRC you are against a second referendum (which FWIW I am as well, not least because of how much of a sh*tshow it would be, again), so how do you define best for all?

I'll also leave what Dr Phillip Lee MP (former Justice minister) tweeted this morning:

If, in the future, I am to look my children in the eye and honestly say that I did my best for them I cannot, in all good conscience, support how our country’s current exit from the EU looks set to be delivered.

 

[Bromley boy]

It was a rather poor analogy, granted, but I was trying to make the point that if you were a remainer and were being asked to choose between a hard Brexit or a SM/CU Brexit, both options are rather rubbish and you'd probably prefer neither.

But that doesn’t change the fact that the best possible Brexit is in the best interests of all of us - and the government is negotiating on all our behalfs - which is what the original poster @Senex seemed to be questioning.

It is all well and good saying that we need to "negotiate the best possible deal for *all* of us" but again what is that, and why shouldn't we have a say on it? By all means implement the will of the people, but if for example a third of people feel that a no-deal Hard brexit is best for us, a third decide that some sort of bespoke deal with the EU that allows us to negotiate our own deals whilst retaining most of our existing trade is best, and another third feel that an SM/CU deal would be best, then what do you do? IIRC you are against a second referendum (which FWIW I am as well, not least because of how much of a sh*tshow it would be, again), so how do you define best for all?

As with all detailed policy matters that’s for the government in parliament to determine. And yes, you recall correctly , I am not in favour of a second plebiscite vote. They are a terrible idea for anything other than the broadest brush issues of major constitutional change.

We all (me included) have to live with whatever deal is thrashed out, so let’s hope we get a good result. With a weak PM nobody really wants, and David Davis leading negotiations, the signs are not good!

I'll also leave what Dr Phillip Lee MP (former Justice minister) tweeted this morning:

Indeed he did. I believe he also said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...inister-phillip-lee-resign-over-brexit-policy

I believe that it would be impossible and wrong to seek to go back to how things were before the referendum”.

 

[northwichcat]

This is exactly what I mean about less aspirational cultures. Picking strawberries is too good for British people, right?

All well and good in principle, but if those poorly qualified British citizens don't want to do the jobs that EU citizens were doing, eg fruit picking.

The fact it's a temporary job often in a rural location not well served by public transport doesn't attract many British people in to wanting to do it. Those who might want a temporary summer job e.g. students, on the whole, would much rather have a working holiday abroad where they do some low paid work. Even countries like Australia and Canada (who have points based immigration systems) will happily let some young foreign workers enter the country for the purpose of doing seasonal work like fruit picking. How is post-Brexit Britain going to work if we don't?

Also while fruit picking is a job suitable for those without many skills, it would require someone who is physically strong to do it all day in all weathers (30oC and clear skies or 15oC and thunderstorms.)

 

[Bromley boy]

Even countries like Australia and Canada (who have points based immigration systems) will happily let some young foreign workers enter the country for the purpose of doing seasonal work like fruit picking. How is post-Brexit Britain going to work if we don't?

Fine. Let’s do that, if necessary, with our own points based system or similar.

Immigration can be a good, even essential, thing where it is targeted and controlled. I just don’t want the U.K.’s immigration policy decided for us by Brussels.

 

[northwichcat]

I assume you mean they fly a load of “self employed” Polish workers over to the U.K. and put them to work in the fields for a fraction of what U.K. workers would demand?

That sounds like a prime example of free movement being abused in order to introduce exploitative employment practices!

That rather depends on what is happening. It may be that unscrupulous employers are artificially classifying them as “self employed” in order to avoid paying them minimum wage. This would be a highly dubious (and probably illegal) arrangement but one low paid Polish workers would be unlikely to have any ability to challenge.

If it is self-employed status then surely there's no reason why British workers won't be exploited - after all Hermes and Uber look after their British workers well don't they? I was under the impression they might be using some other loophole but if it's the 'self-employed' loophole then that's something the British government in Westminster need to sort out and perhaps it would have been sorted out by now if parliament wasn't spending so much time discussing Brexit and sweeping everything else under the rug.

 

[AlterEgo]

The fact it's a temporary job often in a rural location not well served by public transport doesn't attract many British people in to wanting to do it. Those who might want a temporary summer job e.g. students, on the whole, would much rather have a working holiday abroad where they do some low paid work.

That sounds perfectly alright; in on a working holiday visa and leave at the end. That’s different to what goes on now.

Also while fruit picking is a job suitable for those without many skills, it would require someone who is physically strong to do it all day in all weathers (30oC and clear skies or 15oC and thunderstorms.)

Don’t we have many of those people here then?

 

[Bromley boy]

If it is self-employed status then surely there's no reason why British workers won't be exploited - after all Hermes and Uber look after their British workers well don't they? I was under the impression they might be using some other loophole but if it's the 'self-employed' loophole then that's something the British government in Westminster need to sort out and perhaps it would have been sorted out by now if parliament wasn't spending so much time discussing Brexit and sweeping everything else under the rug.

You’re quite right that British workers are also vulnerable to exploitation, of course. However, at the margins, a U.K. citizen is more likely to be able bring a case in an employment tribunal than some poor sod flown in from Poland to sweat blood picking fruit for £1 per hour, or whatever. It’s an absolute disgrace, and the EU’s free movement of workers principle facilitates this kind of exploitation.

I think there’s an employment law case going before the Supreme Court shortly re. Uber. An employment tribunal found that their “self employed” drivers were actually “workers” and therefore entitled to min wage etc. Sadly the gig economy has seen a proliferation of these sharp practices by employers.

I 100% agree the current legal framework governing employment law needs to be updated (and enforced) to reflect the current state of the U.K. labour market. That’s squarely on Westminster, as you say.

Uber drivers, fruit pickers etc. all need to sign themselves up to ASLEF. They’d never stand for any of it!

 

[northwichcat]

Don’t we have many of those people here then?

Not what I also said about requiring transport to get to a rural location and wanting a temporary job. A number of those who are out-of-work and would consider a temporary role either wouldn't be any good due to not having their own transport or not being physically fit enough, while those in permanent work aren't exactly going to resign to do a summer job of fruit picking and risk having no job by the autumn.

 

[northwichcat]

Uber drivers, fruit pickers etc. all need to sign themselves up to ASLEF. They’d never stand for any of it!

What part of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen do taxi drivers and delivery drivers come under? And they of course need available funds to pay a trade union subscription.

 

[Bromley boy]

What part of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen do taxi drivers and delivery drivers come under? And they of course need available funds to pay a trade union subscription.

You do realise that was a joke, right?! Hopefully that goes without saying, but it doesn’t always here

But agreed - the RMT might be a better bet for fruit pickers and taxi drivers. We know how good their negotiation skills are .

 

[northwichcat]

You do realise that was a joke, right?! Hopefully that goes without saying, but it doesn’t always here.

And there I was thinking you were suggesting Hermes should make deliveries by train so their drivers could join ASLEF.

 

[AlterEgo]

A number of those who are out-of-work and would consider a temporary role either wouldn't be any good due to not having their own transport or not being physically fit enough

You don’t need your own transport to pick fruit. These people get picked up in minibuses at the dead of morning, and they usually live several to a house.

The crux of the issue is that as a nation we are happy to see non-British people do that work and have that precariat lifestyle, yet we wouldn’t want it for ourselves or our own children.

Nobody in this country *wants* to pick fruit.

 

[Bromley boy]

And there I was thinking you were suggesting Hermes should make deliveries by train so their drivers could join ASLEF.

Just checking!

Bring back “mail on the fly”, I say. I’d happily supplement my grossly excessive (according to you ) train drivers’ wages with an appropriate “tip” for collecting/delivering parcels thus:

Who needs drones anyway?!

 

[northwichcat]

You don’t need your own transport to pick fruit. These people get picked up in minibuses at the dead of morning, and they usually live several to a house.

The crux of the issue is that as a nation we are happy to see non-British people do that work and have that precariat lifestyle, yet we wouldn’t want it for ourselves or our own children.

Nobody in this country *wants* to pick fruit.

The foreigners who all live on the same street get picked up. The Brits who live in various different towns and villages within a 20 mile radius wouldn't. Should Brits wanting some temporary work all relocate to the same town or village so a works bus would work? It's no use suggesting the bus should pick up from local stations at 5am unless the fruit farm is in the London commuter belt.

 

[AlterEgo]

The foreigners who all live on the same street get picked up. The Brits who live in various different towns and villages within a 20 mile radius wouldn't. Should Brits wanting some temporary work all relocate to the same town or village so a works bus would work? It's no use suggesting the bus should pick up from local stations at 5am unless the fruit farm is in the London commuter belt.

This isn’t about practicalities - the simple fact is nobody in this country wants to do the job or accept the lifestyle it leads to. The Bulgarians and Romanians don’t all live in the same house to start with. They have to move there.

We’ve been quite happy with people from outside Britain doing that for a while and it doesn’t matter about the practicalities; fact is, you wouldn’t do it, nor would I and I wouldn’t want anyone I know doing it.

 

[fowler9]

You don’t need your own transport to pick fruit. These people get picked up in minibuses at the dead of morning, and they usually live several to a house.

The crux of the issue is that as a nation we are happy to see non-British people do that work and have that precariat lifestyle, yet we wouldn’t want it for ourselves or our own children.

Nobody in this country *wants* to pick fruit.

A lot of Brits in Australia are happy doing it on Australia for an extra year on their visa. A lot get exploited and people have in fact been sexualy abused and some even died. Australians also don't want to do the seasonal, insecure and risky work. I guess we could become like them and employ desperate immigrants.

 

[mmh]

This who will pick our strawberries for minimum wage or less if we leave the EU nonsense just reinforces my belief we should leave.

 

[muddythefish]

But "best possible" is not necessarily the same as "good". There's certainly a vested interest in attempting to minimise the damage!

And the "best possible deal" does not mean the wishes of 60 right wing Tory MPs.

It's obvious we're heading for BINO - Brexit In Name Only. We're still going to be part of the EU for many, many years even after the "transition period", only without the opt-outs and special deals we currently enjoy and any say in future EU rules and legislation.

We were having our cake and eating it if only the Brexiteers had the intelligence to realise it.

 

[northwichcat]

This who will pick our strawberries for minimum wage or less if we leave the EU nonsense just reinforces my belief we should leave.

For the purpose of picking strawberries it doesn't matter whether we are in the EU or not, what matters is we ensure fruit farms have sufficient labour so that the fruit is picked on time and doesn't go to waste. However, because there's a shortage of fruit pickers even when low skilled EU workers are allowed to come here and get jobs picking fruit, it means the problem will be made worse by Brexit unless the government spends time (and money) on working with fruit farm owners to find a solution to the problem.

 

[Howardh]

And the "best possible deal" does not mean the wishes of 60 right wing Tory MPs.

It's obvious we're heading for BINO - Brexit In Name Only. We're still going to be part of the EU for many, many years even after the "transition period", only without the opt-outs and special deals we currently enjoy and any say in future EU rules and legislation.

We were having our cake and eating it if only the Brexiteers had the intelligence to realise it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eea-trade-michel-barnier-labour-a8395671.html

Barnier's offered a deal which the UK would be crazy not to accept, the ointment in the fly is that the UK IS crazy. If we would accepot the EEA option we could put Brexit to bed and concentrate on stuff that needs doing, from the NHS through to policing cuts, austerity, social care, the railways and sorlting really important stuff like Lancashires top orders miserable form.

Britain could keep frictionless trade with the European Union after Brexit through a combination of both membership of the European Economic Area and a customs union with the EU, Brussels’ chief negotiator has said.

Michel Barnier said on Tuesday in a meeting with MEPs at the European Parliament that the European Economic Area (EEA) with a customs union was a possible model for a future relationship, and that the two were not incompatible.

Mr Barnier's intimation comes as MPs in Westminster get set to vote on an amendment on Wednesday whether to stay in the EEA, or “Norway option”, after Brexit – but with rebels from both Labour and the Conservatives backing the change in Brexit course.

 

[northwichcat]

This isn’t about practicalities - the simple fact is nobody in this country wants to do the job or accept the lifestyle it leads to. The Bulgarians and Romanians don’t all live in the same house to start with. They have to move there.

We’ve been quite happy with people from outside Britain doing that for a while and it doesn’t matter about the practicalities; fact is, you wouldn’t do it, nor would I and I wouldn’t want anyone I know doing it.

Most people working age want full time permanent work, that's the main issue.

 

[Senex]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eea-trade-michel-barnier-labour-a8395671.html

Barnier's offered a deal which the UK would be crazy not to accept, the ointment in the fly is that the UK IS crazy. If we would accepot the EEA option we could put Brexit to bed and concentrate on stuff that needs doing, from the NHS through to policing cuts, austerity, social care, the railways and sorlting really important stuff like Lancashires top orders miserable form.

But the problem is that the ultra-right Little Englander Tory Brexiteers will never accept that. This wouldn't matter so much if there weren't now, as in the 1970s, also a group of ultra-left Labour MPs who would also never accept it and unlike the 70s when there was a pragmatic Labour leader there is today a leader who belongs to that very ultra-left group. May has no power to tell the Mogg brigade where to get off, Corbyn will not take any clear line, with the result that there is no real opposition to May's hard-Brexit policies, and—as we saw last night—most MPs will just end up doing whatever the whips tell them.

 

[nlogax]

"the ointment in the fly is that the UK IS crazy". It is. Brexit at all and any cost is still the mantra.

Corbyn will not take any clear line

Indeed. I STILL have no real clue what Labour's official stance on Brexit is. It's just as elusive as the list of tangible benefits Brexit will provide to the UK.