EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bromley boy]

So as I said, lets actually have a discussion about this.
Why haven't any of the media actually said this is the case?
Hell why didn't either of the campaigns point out this is the case?
Most people are totally unaware there is even the option of controls over freedom of movement.
Has anyone ever asked the UK public if they would be willing to introduce ID cards if it meant being able to be tougher on immigrants who take the mick? (the last bit of research I saw a few months ago suggested the majority would actually support ID cards anyway - with slightly higher support still if you specify their use to be to prevent crime or terrorism).

As for the specifics about ID - as I said earlier I haven't read enough into it to know exactly the requirements of the law, but as some EU countries require just a free registration (that you get a certificate for, that you do not need to carry around with you like ID) - I really don't think it is as harsh as you make it sound.

There is no real ability to control free movement - as Angela Merkel has made abundantly clear on many occasions. The four freedoms are part and parcel of the common market and the choice appears to be accepting all of them or leaving entirely.

We are required to accept as many EU migrants as wish to settle here, so long as they are capable of self sufficiency, with no ability to restrict or control their numbers: just as we saw when the then Labour Government lied to the country about the potential scale of Eastern European migration in the middle of the last decade and we ended up receiving a large multiple of the number predicted.

The controls you note above are limited in scope, applying only to those who are not self sufficient, and I suspect they are virtually unenforceable anyway once people are already living here. In any case they do nothing to address the fundamental concern of many leave voters, or indeed those remain voters who are open minded enough to acknowledge that the EU is far from perfect! The issue isn’t just about migrants who “take the mic” (most don’t).

 

[Howardh]

There is no real ability to control free movement - as Angela Merkel has made abundantly clear on many occasions. The four freedoms are part and parcel of the common market and the choice appears to be accepting all of them or leaving entirely.

We are required to accept as many EU migrants as wish to settle here, so long as they are capable of self sufficiency, with no ability to restrict or control their numbers: just as we saw when the then Labour Government lied to the country about the potential scale of Eastern European migration in the middle of the last decade and we ended up receiving a large multiple of the number predicted.

The controls you note above are limited in scope, applying only to those who are not self sufficient, and I suspect they are virtually unenforceable anyway once people are already living here. In any case they do nothing to address the fundamental concern of many leave voters.

You could have a valid point if you think that self-sufficient EU's are a drain on our resources/housing/NHS etc. However, let's give the NHS as an example, if you have a surgery with four doctors and 1000 patients, knock 250 patients out and won't they will simply withdraw a doctor? Same applies to schools and teachers?
Anyhow, that aside - if people from the EU are self-sufficient, how many do you want to come here? None? 10k?? 100k? You are a leaver so what would satisfy you?
I am self-sufficient. I would like, one day, to move to Spain. I could be stopped if we refuse at accept self-sufficient Spaniards in return. Why shouldn't I be allowed to settle in Spain?
Or are you suggesting a one-out one-in system? So we have to go on a "list"?
Could you please explain how your system would work - would I be a prisoner here unable to move to the EU, and would that make an EU a prisoner not able to move here?
Thanks!!

 

[Bromley boy]

You could have a valid point if you think that self-sufficient EU's are a drain on our resources/housing/NHS etc. However, let's give the NHS as an example, if you have a surgery with four doctors and 1000 patients, knock 250 patients out and won't they will simply withdraw a doctor? Same applies to schools and teachers?
Anyhow, that aside - if people from the EU are self-sufficient, how many do you want to come here? None? 10k?? 100k? You are a leaver so what would satisfy you?
I am self-sufficient. I would like, one day, to move to Spain. I could be stopped if we refuse at accept self-sufficient Spaniards in return. Why shouldn't I be allowed to settle in Spain?
Or are you suggesting a one-out one-in system? So we have to go on a "list"?
Could you please explain how your system would work - would I be a prisoner here unable to move to the EU, and would that make an EU a prisoner not able to move here?
Thanks!!

It is ridiculous hyperbole to suggest that the only choices we have are unfettered free movement or being prisoners in our own country.

I simply want the same system that works for every other country around the world. A system along the lines of a tourist visa waiver programme for the EU, just as we have with America and most other first world countries, and a system allowing temporary or permanent migration to allow desirable migrants (those who hold skills that are in demand) to move here.

The key point for me is that our government should set the system and dictate numbers. The numbers we actually receive shouldn’t be a hostage of fortune because of an EU policy forced upon us.

Similarly, if you want to move to another country, EU or otherwise, it should be for that country’s own government whether it wants to accept a new citizen named @Howardh. I don’t believe you should have carte blanche to settle in Spain. Why? Simply because you aren’t Spanish!

EDIT: and it’s ironic that your main reason for opposing Brexit is that you wish to leave the U.K. anyway!

 

[Howardh]

It is ridiculous hyperbole to suggest that the only choices we have are unfettered free movement or being prisoners in our own country.

I simply want the same system that works for every other country around the world. A system along the lines of a tourist visa waiver programme for the EU, just as we have with America and most other first world countries, and a system allowing temporary or permanent migration to allow desirable migrants (those who hold skills that are in demand) to move here.

The key point for me is that our government should set the system and dictate numbers. The numbers we actually receive shouldn’t be a hostage of fortune because of an EU policy forced upon us.

Similarly, if you want to move to another country, EU or otherwise, it should be for that country’s own government whether it wants to accept a new citizen named @Howardh. I don’t believe you should have carte blanche to settle in Spain. Why? Simply because you aren’t Spanish!

EDIT: and it’s ironic that your main reason for opposing Brexit is that you wish to leave the U.K. anyway!

Thing is it was a freedom I had, and could plan for. Didn't have to be Spanish, just an EU resident and I HAD carte blanche to settle in Spain. Holland. Germany. Poland...
But now that's gone and as you rightly say, it's up to them whether I can settle or not. To be honest if I did move there it would only be part-time, ie my base would be the UK and I would live in Spain (Ibiza or Menorca would be favourites, Formentera is just too expensive) half the year in rented accommodation. Admittedly my current caring capacity has (happily) lasted longer than I thought, the downside is looking at available property on the web is currently merely window-shopping.
So when the time comes we may be outside the EU and subject to restrictions. Can't think why Spain wouldn't want a well-off retiree, but if we don't under your rules...who knows? Then we have the EHIC and recriprocal health agreements to consider which could be lost - possibly a greater worry than finding a nice flat adjacent to a pool!
If we DON'T end up with recripocal arrangements, there will be a heck of a lot of Brits abroad who can't afford to stay. Health insurance don't come cheap, and in the past 20+ years many emigrated due to being in the EU.
They well might return in their thousands...millions??? Adding to the stress on our NHS, housing...etc??
Think if they did returne en masse, one might consider the current situation as rather more desirable.
Careful what you wish for.

 

[AlterEgo]

The sheer entitlement by some posters is incredible. Yes, membership of the EU confers a conditional right of free movement, but one that exists on a consent basis.

You don’t get to just live in any country you like as an absolute right. It’s always been a conditional right.

At the moment I am in the United States. I’m only allowed in, like every other British person, because they say so. It is a privilege to be a guest in someone else’s country; it’s like going to another person’s house. If they change the rules and say you can’t come and go whenever you like, or that you have to have a visa, well that’s tough titty.

 

[mmh]

Such controls would require operations and activities which are an anathema to the current social contract in the United Kingdom and especially in Northern Ireland.

No they wouldn't. They'd work exactly the same as they do now. Someone not from an EU nation in Ireland can walk across (or sail, or fly - our border with Ireland isn't just the land one) the border and enter the UK and not carry ID papers.

They'd be "illegal immigrants", without the right to residency, just like now.

 

[mmh]

That is a specific issue for the UK government to solve along with the NI assembly and the Irish government due to historical issues to do with the Good Friday agreement and the Ireland question. Nothing at all to do with the EU and EU laws.

Absolutely. The longer the farce of Brexit goes on the more convinced that the Irish border problem is one that people don't actually want to be solved, to suit their own agendas.

 

[radamfi]

But now that's gone and as you rightly say, it's up to them whether I can settle or not. To be honest if I did move there it would only be part-time, ie my base would be the UK and I would live in Spain (Ibiza or Menorca would be favourites, Formentera is just too expensive) half the year in rented accommodation.

If you don't want to stay more than 90 days within a 180 day period, you should still be able to do that. There is no need to spend the other 90 days in the UK but you have to find a non-Schengen country in which to stay. At the moment that includes Ireland, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Romania and most Balkan countries. If more countries join Schengen it will be harder to avoid needing to get a visa. At some point it may be necessary to go to the far east of Europe or out of Europe altogether for those 90 days if you want to avoid going back to the UK. Spending a few months here and there may, on the other hand be a preferable, if expensive, way to retire without the hassle of getting a visa.

Without EEA/CH free movement, UK citizens will have one of the smallest regions in which to live compared to other developed countries. Americans and Canadians have a vast country (basically half a continent) to roam around in. Australia and New Zealand enjoy free movement between those countries.

 

[Bromley boy]

Thing is it was a freedom I had, and could plan for. Didn't have to be Spanish, just an EU resident and I HAD carte blanche to settle in Spain. Holland. Germany. Poland...
But now that's gone and as you rightly say, it's up to them whether I can settle or not. To be honest if I did move there it would only be part-time, ie my base would be the UK and I would live in Spain (Ibiza or Menorca would be favourites, Formentera is just too expensive) half the year in rented accommodation. Admittedly my current caring capacity has (happily) lasted longer than I thought, the downside is looking at available property on the web is currently merely window-shopping.
So when the time comes we may be outside the EU and subject to restrictions. Can't think why Spain wouldn't want a well-off retiree, but if we don't under your rules...who knows? Then we have the EHIC and recriprocal health agreements to consider which could be lost - possibly a greater worry than finding a nice flat adjacent to a pool!
If we DON'T end up with recripocal arrangements, there will be a heck of a lot of Brits abroad who can't afford to stay. Health insurance don't come cheap, and in the past 20+ years many emigrated due to being in the EU.
They well might return in their thousands...millions??? Adding to the stress on our NHS, housing...etc??
Think if they did returne en masse, one might consider the current situation as rather more desirable.
Careful what you wish for.

Well yes the guarantee that things will remain exactly as they are has been lost.

My suspicion is that common sense will prevail and that, when things have settled down, we will have a sensible reciprocal entry system for EU nationals wishing to visit the U.K.

Common sense would also dictate that a countries like Spain or Greece wouldn’t have any objection to well off British retirees spending time there - quite the opposite - since their economies rely on tourism (although I do hope you’ve made some effort to learn Spanish!). For what it’s worth, I hope your plans work out. I don’t see any reason for you to assume you will be a prisoner of the U.K. post Brexit!

As for Brits abroad wishing to return home, that is a matter for them and their host countries although, again, if they’re self sufficient I doubt that will be an issue either. Reciprocal healthcare arrangements don’t necessarily have to rely on the EU, surely? Don’t forget there are plenty of Brits abroad in the US and Australia and other parts of the world.

Above all, for me, the importance I attach to the right to self determination and control of our own borders absolutely trumps any concerns I might have about the rights of a small minority of retirees wishing to move abroad (and I don’t think those rights will really change in any case).

 

[mmh]

That BBC reports wha exactly what I said to my MP two weeks before the referendum, no matter how tough you make immigration at Great Britain's ports of entry, anyone with an Eu passport can enter Ireland at will and walk, bus, train etc across our border there unchecked, and therefore *lost*.

Yes, and they become an "illegal immigrant", just like someone from outside the EU doing the same today.

But why would more people do that than today? The person from the EU doing that wouldn't have the right to stay or work. If post-Brexit the British economy is going to hell in a handcart (I'm ambivalent on that), why would someone from the EU use Ireland as a backdoor to being an illegal immigrant?

When you cross the ferry from Northern Ireland to the mainland, all you are asked to do is match your iD with the name on the ticket. Nothing about your immigration status

Any ID checking that's done is down to the operator. You can go between any the UK, Ireland and the channel Islands without ever showing ID. That's because all of them decided they wanted that to be the case. Nothing to do with the EU.

 

[muddythefish]

Immigration is a red herring. It's never been a problem in this country (we need more, not fewer immigrants), and migrants have brought enormous economic benefits. Who mentions immigration in the Brexit debate now, apart from dyed in the wool Brexiteers?

Of far more importance is the Irish border problem and the impact that the Brexit uncertainty is having on the economy. UK growth is weak at best , and with the lack of leadership from this wretched Tory government, businesses are making their own plans for the UK's departure. Most of their plans involve cutting staff and pulling back on investment.

There are vital votes in the Commons this week on the Lords amendment to the withdrawal bill. If the Tory rebels voted with their hearts, the government would be defeated. But as usual they will likely tow the party line. May and the Conservatives are interested only in retaining power, not what is best for the country.

 

[mmh]

Has anyone ever asked the UK public if they would be willing to introduce ID cards if it meant being able to be tougher on immigrants who take the mick

The Blair government tried to introduce an ID card system, it was massively controversial and legislation to introduce a non-compulsary system was introduced and passed. None of it was implemented, and the legislation repealed.

No politician is going to try and resurrect it unless they want to lose!

 

[muddythefish]

The Blair government tried to introduce an ID card system, it was massively controversial and legislation to introduce a non-compulsary system was introduced and passed. None of it was implemented, and the legislation repealed.

No politician is going to try and resurrect it unless they want to lose!

I'd vote for identity cards. Eminently sensible idea

 

[Bromley boy]

Immigration is a red herring. It's never been a problem in this country (we need more, not fewer immigrants), and migrants have brought enormous economic benefits. Who mentions immigration in the Brexit debate now, apart from dyed in the wool Brexiteers?

On the contrary, as a leave voter, I’m pro immigration to fill skill gaps in areas we need. However I want the U.K. to be able to control its own borders. We have already had a government lie to us about the numbers or migrants who would come from newly admitted Eastern European states in the last decade - or is that something you deny?

I’m not particularly concerned about EU migrants. I’m more concerned about abuse of student visas, spousal migration rules etc. and the fact that we have imported many people into this country who cannot speak english, do not integrate into society and reject our way of life and liberal values.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'd vote for identity cards. Eminently sensible idea

I’d never vote for identity cards. Absolutely terrible and illiberal idea.

 

[muddythefish]

On the contrary, as a leave voter, I’m pro immigration to fill skill gaps in areas we need. However I want the U.K. to be able to control its own borders. We have already had a government lie to us about the numbers or migrants who would come from newly admitted Eastern European states in the last decade - or is that something you deny?

I’m not particularly concerned about EU migrants. I’m more concerned about abuse of student visas, spousal migration rules etc. and the fact that we have imported many people into this country who cannot speak english, do not integrate into society and reject our way of life and liberal values.

There's nothing "liberal" about some of the anti-immigrant far-right factions. Britain First, a member of whom gunned down Labour MP Jo Cox in the street, is just one example.

As far as I am concerned, all immigrants are welcome here as long as they get a job and pay their taxes.

Don't get me started on lies. The Brexit Leave campaign was one big lie

 

[NSEFAN]

The sheer entitlement by some posters is incredible. Yes, membership of the EU confers a conditional right of free movement, but one that exists on a consent basis.

You don’t get to just live in any country you like as an absolute right. It’s always been a conditional right.

At the moment I am in the United States. I’m only allowed in, like every other British person, because they say so. It is a privilege to be a guest in someone else’s country; it’s like going to another person’s house. If they change the rules and say you can’t come and go whenever you like, or that you have to have a visa, well that’s tough titty.

To be fair, the younger posters on the forum will not be used to a time when such agreements didn't exist, so the thought of treating France etc in the same way as further nations like the USA will be quite alien. It would be like the NHS suddenly being taken away; people may grow up expecting it to always be there and plan accordingly, but political or economic changes could mean otherwise.

 

[EM2]

I’m not particularly concerned about EU migrants. I’m more concerned about abuse of student visas, spousal migration rules etc. and the fact that we have imported many people into this country who cannot speak english, do not integrate into society and reject our way of life and liberal values.

I'm slightly confused as to how leaving the EU will resolve that?

 

[muddythefish]

I'm slightly confused as to how leaving the EU will resolve that?

It doesn't. It just shows the "mindset" of certain Leave voters. Someone mentioned the r word but I never would

 

[AlterEgo]

To be fair, the younger posters on the forum will not be used to a time when such agreements didn't exist, so the thought of treating France etc in the same way as further nations like the USA will be quite alien. It would be like the NHS suddenly being taken away; people may grow up expecting it to always be there and plan accordingly, but political or economic changes could mean otherwise.

I am one of the younger posters - at least in as much as the UK was in the EU for the whole of my life. I was born in 1986.

The people moaning about this are older than me.

 

[AlterEgo]

There's nothing "liberal" about some of the anti-immigrant far-right factions. Britain First, a member of whom gunned down Labour MP Jo Cox in the street, is just one example.

As far as I am concerned, all immigrants are welcome here as long as they get a job and pay their taxes.

Don't get me started on lies. The Brexit Leave campaign was one big lie

The man who shot and stabbed Jo Cox was not a member of Britain First. He shouted “Britain first” during the act but likely in the imperative rather than claiming the group was responsible.

He was however a racist and a member of the NF and EDL.

Out of interest, hypothetically - what if immigration of people into the UK is lowering the value of labour and leading to poorer prospects for the indigenous working class? You’d probably expect them to get annoyed and do something silly like use a referendum vote to show it. I dunno!

 

[Bromley boy]

There's nothing "liberal" about some of the anti-immigrant far-right factions.

I don’t recall saying there was?

What is the relevance of the above comment to the discussion we are having about controlled immigration v free movement?

Are you trying to shut down debate by implying that anyone who advocates for tighter immigration controls must be “far right”.

As far as I am concerned, all immigrants are welcome here as long as they get a job and pay their taxes.

As far as I’m concerned that’s the wrong way of looking at things. Immigrants should be welcome where they:

1. Come into a pre-existing job;
2. That job cannot be fulfilled by someone already living here;
3. They can speak our language (a pre requisite for (1), and assimilate to our values.

Don't get me started on lies. The Brexit Leave campaign was one big lie

As was the remain campaign.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm slightly confused as to how leaving the EU will resolve that?

It absolutely won’t - but it will give us a greater ability to ability to control who immigrates to the U.K. from EU member states.

 

[Bromley boy]

It doesn't. It just shows the "mindset" of certain Leave voters. Someone mentioned the r word but I never would

It doesn’t show anything of the sort.

We were talking about migration controls, you suddenly mentioned Jo Cox and Britain First (wrongly as it turns out).

You’re taking the typical hard left approach to shutting down sensible debate - anyone who wants restrictions on immigration is automatically mentioned in the same breath as a racist/Nazi etc. (until Jews are mentioned, of course, and then racism no longer matters).

 

[Bromley boy]

The people moaning about this are older than me.

Not all of them. I’m around your age.

 

[mmh]

I'd vote for identity cards. Eminently sensible idea

Why? What would it allow to happen that would be worth the cost and the inevitable backlash?

Genuine question - I don't understand.

 

[muddythefish]

As far as I’m concerned that’s the wrong way of looking at things. Immigrants should be welcome where they:

1. Come into a pre-existing job;
2. That job cannot be fulfilled by someone already living here;
3. They can speak our language (a pre requisite for (1), and assimilate to our values.

1. What's a pre-existing job? A job that existed before it existed? Gobbledegook.

2. Britain first in other words. The NHS amongst many other institutions would have to be shut down with such a policy.

3. Language is irrelevant.

And whose values would those be? Because it's evident yours are very different to mine.

If your mean national values such as tolerance and fair-mindedness (as existed before the EU referendum) that rules out most Brexiteers.

 

[EM2]

It absolutely won’t - but it will give us a greater ability to ability to control who immigrates to the U.K. from EU member states.

But you've just said that you're not particularly concerned about EU migrants?

 

[muddythefish]

Why? What would it allow to happen that would be worth the cost and the inevitable backlash?

Genuine question - I don't understand.

ID cards have very little in the way of negatives, unless you are trying to hide something. In this brave new world of international terrorism etc, it is essential we know exactly who our "neighbours" are. I would have thought Brexiteers and their obsession with illegal immigrants would be all in favour.

 

[Bromley boy]

1. What's a pre-existing job? A job that existed before it existed? Gobbledegook.

I’m reminded that comprehension isn’t a strong point of yours.

It means a job they have secured before arriving, which has sponsored their presence in the U.K.

2. Britain first in other words. The NHS amongst many other institutions would have to be shut down with such a policy.

Putting existing British citizens first in the queue yes - God forbid.

No it wouldn’t. By definition. If there was a skills shortage for drs, nurses etc (and there is). then immigration is a good solution.

What I’ve outlined above is the policy adopted by many first world countries.

3. Language is irrelevant.

What rubbish.

How can language be irrelevant to doing a job in the U.K.? Which jobs in this country can be done by someone who speaks no English?

And whose values would those be? Because it's evident yours are very different to mine.

The values of a post-Christian secular democracy and an ability to integrate into society.

What values do you think they should be? Does Sharia law float your boat?

If your mean national values such as tolerance and fair-mindedness (as existed before the EU referendum) that rules out most Brexiteers.

More biased nonsense!